Anyone Got Any Good Ways Of Arguing Your Case?

[Flint]

Ok so....my sister...who classes herself as a "scientist" (I can't spell by the way) she isn't really she still at uni but she classes herself as a scinetist. She has so many arguments against trans....And ireally need ways to get back...Cause each and ever weekend i lose confidence....I just wanna show her that she needs to look beyond her little brain. Cause she making my life hell. And shes gonna be home for christmas....i'm gonna have at the most 3 weeks having to cope with her all day...cause i'm currently house bound so i cant get out. Anyone have any good things i can use to at least make me feel like i'm arguing my case??

Thanks in advance

MB.

[Guest JackKat]

Well there is a lot of research out there about hormones affecting the brain before birth, and somthing about neuron counts in the brain being more male or female.

Neuron Counts

Mental Sex and Gender Identity

what I would do is read up on some of this stuff and then if she gives you a hard time just trough some of that info back at her. It might shock her into shuting up, at least for a little bit.

or you could do what I do when my sister calls me butch, punch her in the face.

*just kidding...kind of*

Jack

[Guest Huff]

or you could do what I do when my sister calls me butch, punch her in the face.

*just kidding...kind of*

hmm... that just might work!

I've been doing some good reading recently on this topic. I guess this is one way that being a bit of an academic is to my advantage. My suggestion is to read actual scientific research that has been done, if you can. I found a few full articles just on the electronic databases at the local community college, plus a whole bunch of abstracts for other journals that they didn't have there. The main problem that we face here is that research, in order for it to happen, needs to be funded. And, for some strange reason, both the private and public sector has a greater interest in funding cancer and AIDS research than transsexual research.

The best one that I read through so far was the research done by a team in Holland. I don't have a copy of the article any longer, so I can't give you the title of the paper or the researchers' names. What I remember is that scientists found a very small area of the brain (the BSTc, which is located at the base of the hypothalamus) that is twice as big in males than in females, regardless of sexual orientation. This discovery was particularly powerful in and of itself, because other sexually dimorphic (ie size varies based on gender) areas had been discovered in which gay men had the female size and vice versa. So, they took cadavers of several MTF transsexuals and found that regardless of their sexual orientation or whether or not they had been treated with females hormones, they had FEMALE sized BSTc's. Amazing. Demonstration of a real difference in brain structures of transsexuals at last. I don't know if this or another group actually did a study to verify that the reverse was true for FTM's. The next step in research, of course, would be trying to identify the root causes of this kind of brain difference. I'd be interested in hearing if someone else has read any relevant research to that end.

Also, it might be helpful to the community to write down some of the arguments - philosophical or scientific - that you've heard. It may be of benefit to go through them together and discuss what counter-arguments some of us have used. I don't think it's useful to sit with unanswered questions that cause self-doubt and uncertainty.

MK

[Guest Marco]

now i don't know any scientific terms for any of this, but according to my research, at some point in a womans pregnancy the fetus' brain is kind of washed in the hormone of their birth sex, but with transsexuals the brain is washed in the opposite hormone due to a defficiency of the original hormone.

or something like that. sometimes there are signs during pregnancy such as lumps in the breast etc.

i'm not 100% sure about this but i've read the same thing from several sources. hope this helps.

[princecharmless]

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm

Print this out, roll it into a tube then hit your sister over the head with it.

[Guest Huff]

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm

Print this out, roll it into a tube then hit your sister over the head with it.

nice... that's the paper I was talking about

MK

[Flint]

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm

Print this out, roll it into a tube then hit your sister over the head with it.

Thats a really good idea........

[Guest Sakura_Stingray]

You know....it is a scientific study that children of male or female are born with almost identicle bodies, except for the reproductive organs......you could tell her that being male or female only matters under two sources from this justification 1. hormones are what set the emotion program to self identify female or male within a person. or 2. everyone was born both male and female, the only difference is "i(you) was forced to be near the males and you(sister) around the females. because they have said a male boy lived his first 15 years of life thinking he was a female, without knowing the difference in organs, only because he was taught, and reacted in a feminin manner in the mostly girl society where they lived......cultue and hormones in my opinion make up the gender of someone....not definitions

[Flint]

Well there is a lot of research out there about hormones affecting the brain before birth, and somthing about neuron counts in the brain being more male or female.

Neuron Counts

Mental Sex and Gender Identity

what I would do is read up on some of this stuff and then if she gives you a hard time just trough some of that info back at her. It might shock her into shuting up, at least for a little bit.

or you could do what I do when my sister calls me butch, punch her in the face.

*just kidding...kind of*

Jack

Ahh i'd love to punch her in the face often....... But yea.....I try not to do that......lol

[Flint]

I give up trying to help her understand. In fact i give in to her. she's right.......*sighs* I'm wrong. I wanna be right. cause i REALLLY REALLY get filled by so much despair thinking that i should live as a female. I really do. In fact the thhought of it makes me wanna die so bad. I dunno how to argue back anymore.

[Guest AlexJ]

Whether she won the argument or not, she's wrong and you're right.

Btw, just realised who you remind me of... you watch X-Factor?

[Flint]

Whether she won the argument or not, she's wrong and you're right.

Btw, just realised who you remind me of... you watch X-Factor?

Oh.....

Hmmm

Is that a good thing?

That i look like him???? lol

Actually i was watching Xfactor final (Dont ask why, cause i hate the frigging programme) but i do remeber a friend showing me a pic they took of me and i remeber thinking "Hmmm i look kinda like that guy on xfactor".... but then i changed my mind. But now i changed my mind back. But i might change my mind again.

[princecharmless]

Noooo you look like a young Liam Neeson.

[Guest Darrel]

The best one that I read through so far was the research done by a team in Holland. I don't have a copy of the article any longer, so I can't give you the title of the paper or the researchers' names. What I remember is that scientists found a very small area of the brain (the BSTc, which is located at the base of the hypothalamus) that is twice as big in males than in females, regardless of sexual orientation. This discovery was particularly powerful in and of itself, because other sexually dimorphic (ie size varies based on gender) areas had been discovered in which gay men had the female size and vice versa. So, they took cadavers of several MTF transsexuals and found that regardless of their sexual orientation or whether or not they had been treated with females hormones, they had FEMALE sized BSTc's.

Hmm, well, this is an interesting find. However, if it is true, then you may look at possible restriction or rejection of transsexuals. If, say, a FtM doesn't have a male BSTc, then he may be classified as a false transsexual. Or, if a MtF doesn't have a female sized BSTc, she may be considered something else (like a crossdresser or fake). While this is a nice scientifical find that can push the fact that transsexuals cannot help being who they are, it may also have negative effects for those who don't fit within the box.

Also, if such findings can be found early, then a baby can have their BSTc scanned, and genitals scanned, and if the two don't match, abort. :S That wouldn't be good.

[Guest Ryles_D]

What field is she in?

I always considered this stuff more of a psychology than a science thing. (I use science to mean physics/bio/chem rather than the social sciences)

Unless she's going into medicine and neurosciences or something looking at the brain, she should shut up. Seriously- tell her to shut up.

Especially if she hasn't graduated University. When I'm a senior in college, I really doubt I'll be telling people what's what about who they are. Then, I want to go into paleontology. I'll be spending my time looking at bones and telling them who I think they are. If you ever run across a weird kid talking to a dinosaur skeleton in a museum about it's ancestry, it might be me.

Hmm, well, this is an interesting find. However, if it is true, then you may look at possible restriction or rejection of transsexuals. If, say, a FtM doesn't have a male BSTc, then he may be classified as a false transsexual. Or, if a MtF doesn't have a female sized BSTc, she may be considered something else (like a crossdresser or fake). While this is a nice scientifical find that can push the fact that transsexuals cannot help being who they are, it may also have negative effects for those who don't fit within the box.

Also, if such findings can be found early, then a baby can have their BSTc scanned, and genitals scanned, and if the two don't match, abort. :S That wouldn't be good.

Eh, I've heard of stupider reasons to abort. Better than the kid getting brought up feeling like a freak and possibly getting pushed even harder to be their biological sex and have any hints they might not be squelched. That'd straw inhaler, probably make them even less likely to seek help.

I think that's the nature of the beast when it comes to life. We make progress to help the majority. God help you if you're the minority, though, because they'll have a bit of trouble dealing with you.

I'd hope that isn't used to prove TGness, though, that' could turn unpleasant. Forcing people who aren't FTM/MTF but have the brain to get the surgery, keeping people who don't have the thing but feel MTF/FTM from getting it.