Pregnant Transman: Does It Help Or Hurt Us?

[Guest silverpetals]

how could it "hurt" us? he's simply living his life, doing what is (probably) best for him and his wife. i'm kind of surprised that many of us (with "us" being the group most likely to be affected by attitudes stemming from this story) instead of defending his choice, are shunning him.

i understand that maybe some people think they don't agree with his choice--but who are we to agree or disagree with him? his choice to carry the child doesn't really affect any of us whatsoever. his choice to go on oprah, while a bit publicity-seeking, doesn't affect any of us either (unless you're deeply moved when you watch it, or something).

what does affect us are the attitudes that manifest themselves because of his choice, whether the assumption is that "he's really brave for having done what he did, and being so open about it", or if it's that he's "more like a pregnant boobless woman who has pubes growing on her chin" (i didn't make that one up (sad, i know)). whatever the response is, i don't think that we can or should hold him responsible for other people's reactions, whether they be positive or negative. attitudes like that always exist--all we can hold him to account for is bringing people's attitudes to the surface and making them clearer. and providing a good conversation starter during moments of awkward silence lol.

should we really criticise him for that?

i really don't mean to put anyone down by saying that, i'm really sorry if i did. it's just i think that sometimes there can be confusion over what the real problem is.

well...that's just what i think anyway, i know everyone has different feelings about this.

[Guest Drew]

i think it helps and hurts at the same time. it brings trans-ness into the public eye (which can be good) but it also makes us as a group seem a little weird...to the very closed minded individuals out there. i believe that Thomas has the right to live his life the way he chooses, if he decides to carry his own child that's fine...but i also think that going on Oprah and publishing an article in People was a little much....even if he had done it with Barbara Walters and 20/20 i think people would be taking it more seriously. if he wanted publicity he should have chosen a magazine that doesn't go crazy over every move that Angelina Jolie makes. i do think this would have been taken more seriously that way and wouldn't have been so much ridicule.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I agree with Drew. A pregnant transman both helps and hurts us. On one hand, nothing challenges the established gender binary like a person who looks very male but is also obviously pregnant. I mean, pregnant bulges don't look at all like beer guts...not typically. One of my little "missions" is to not be ashamed to do things that challenge people's social conditioning. For example, I am far from passing in the real world, yet I don't shave my legs. Since I've got really dark hair, it's really obvious that I don't do this. When I go out in shorts, I get some looks. I make sure to engage people in conversation, not about what they are staring at, but rather just whatever strikes me. Usually I come off as friendly and likable. This creates cognitive dissonance...a conflict between what they were thinking about me before and what their impression of me is once they talk to me. When people have to form an opinion of me that includes more than just their ideas about someone that is obviously challenging a well-established social convention, I think it forces them to take a step toward being more open minded. I might not be explaining this very well. Anyway, I think being a pregnant transman who isn't afraid to be in the public eye is a great way to challenge the established gender binary.

The downside to Thomas' specific case is, as Drew said, the route he took to the public eye. Not to slam Oprah and daytime talk shows, but it seems like a more reputable news outlet would have been a better choice. I think trans people are all too often relegated to the tabloids. We need to make our way out into mainstream media! I can see this happening slowly but surely...though it will never be fast enough for my tastes. Ah, the activist in me is growing stronger by the day!

[Guest silverpetals]

The downside to Thomas' specific case is, as Drew said, the route he took to the public eye. Not to slam Oprah and daytime talk shows, but it seems like a more reputable news outlet would have been a better choice. I think trans people are all too often relegated to the tabloids. We need to make our way out into mainstream media! I can see this happening slowly but surely...though it will never be fast enough for my tastes. Ah, the activist in me is growing stronger by the day!

well...

at least it wasn't jerry springer.

[Guest Drew]

well...

at least it wasn't jerry springer.

that's true...that would have been a total disaster...don't even get me started on Jerry Springer.

[Guest My_Genesis]

what bugs me the most about this and similar situations is the way the media portrays "us", as many have already said...we already don't get much publicity, it's like we're outcasts, and when something that seems a little unusual, even to us, comes into public view, that's when we're recognized. So it distorts the public's image, makes them believe that we all do things similar to that (i.e. things that make your gender identity very obscure, and confuse the situation even further). Were the media to include transsexuals, say, as often as they do homosexuals, even that would have helped us out in situations such as this one. What if gays/lesbians were rarely seen in the media, unless something that even they found a little odd had occurred?

In a similar instance, it kind of gets to me when i am browsing the internet, esp. youtube, and most of what I find is about transsexual prostitutes.

[Guest lorddillon]

What if gays/lesbians were rarely seen in the media, unless something that even they found a little odd had occurred?

Well, this actually used to be the case in the not-too-distant past, when gays/lesbians were only seen in the media when they would have pride parades, and all the media showed was the most out-there flamboyant sections (topless dykes on bikes and drag queens and leathermen in butt-less chaps).

This is one of the things that formed the general public's idea of homosexuality for a long long time. Acceptance for gays/lesbian on television and the big screen is a relatively recent ocurrance.

[Guest RootsRadicals]

I believe it does a little bit of both. It helps us by getting it known that we are here and we are people too, it hurts us because now people have more of a reason to bash on us and call us women. He is not the first and won't be the last transman who's gotten pregnant. The Media coverage was a little much I think.

[Guest Evan_J]

When I first heard of it I didn't particularly "feel" anything about it. I think that without realizing it I saw him as "just another Jerry Springer-like, sensational topic". And unfortunatelly I think that is the first thing that he "did" for transfolk; give them another Springeresque figure.

Since then I have really come to be angry and raging that he did that. I think it sends the message that in the end he was "just a woman who made himself 'look' like a man". The truth is, whether you feel entitled to a biological child or not, men (if you are going to be accepted as such by biologically born men and others outside of the LGBT spectra) do not bear children and to perform the act is as good as saying "I still want to do something born of a female core". If you have a problem "feeling" female then how can want to "feel" doing that and for (darn near) 10 months? To know its "happening" in you whether you see it or not? To see it when it sticks out? I feel like saying "are you crazy?" Cuz there is no way (to me) that a person not wanting to "feel" the things attached to the female body can simultaneously be "ok" with that. And if John Q Public rationalizes it that way too then it backlashes on ALL of us. How many people will decide "Hmmm Maybe they DON'T need the T OR the SRS since "really" they are ultimately still to themselves their birth gender."

THAT is what makes me most angry.

To think that for 4 minutes of notoriety and to cash in we all possibly got sold.`

[Guest silverpetals]

so...would anybody *here* discount him as a man because of what he did?

and if not, then doesn't the problem lie with ignorance rather than his choice?

[Guest Evan_J]

I don't think -at least for me- that "discounting" is the issue.

But I do understand were someone might question what HE himself defines being a man as.

And if we are honest (who knows maybe someone here has info regarding it) how many gender therapist will conclude that expressing desiring to become pregnant BEFORE they approve you for T or SRS is is a statement "in keeping with your gender of desire".

[Guest babyboy]

well im not a ftm but i can tell u this it prolly hurts all these guys around here when some stupid person does this

[Guest MelanieAnne]

Not to be too rude about an old subject, but I really had to reply to this when reading it in the archives. A member earlier saw the "she" and "woman" in articles about the transman being pregnant, and that was a good thing to notice. What is funny would be if this transman would be offended by being called a "she", because in my opinion she shouldn't. We all know what it's like to be different, to strive for normality in a world that looks down on us, but it is people like her who set us back. How can she expect to be called a man if she's going to go and get pregnant? Sorry, but like it or not, only women can get pregnant so she is choosing to live her life as both a man and a woman. I am happy to read many responses here who seem to agree that this transman is hurting out community, because she is. I will call her a she so long as she carries a baby and delivers it, like any biological woman would do. It has nothing to do with parenting for me, as kids are raised in worse situations, it just isn't right. If you want to be a man, then be one and accept the roles men play in society. I want to be a woman, I *am* a woman, and I embrace it. Clearly this...person...has issues with that. As I am sure many transmen and transwomen do here. We don't need media like this, holding us back more. Once again I am impressed and proud to read the responses here.

[Guest JayJaye]

So, does that make me forever female because I chose to have children before transtioning? I understand what the desire is to have children, which is why I had them even though being a MOM, the thought of being a MOM was kind of icky. I wanted children, I had the parts, so I did. I can understand Thomas and his wife and their dilemma: his wife could NOT have children, yet he still had parts that might work. I applaud him and am not ashamed of him. Many other guys have done this before him, though. Yes, the 'Pregnant Man' title is typical media sensation but I think Thomas showed the world that he is a normal person and not a freak, no matter how freaky a spin the media tried to put on the story.

Thomas Beattie is a man, and to see him called by female pronouns on a transsexual message board is appalling.

What is the difference really if a lesbian transwoman has a child with her female partner? Should she not use her own sperm if possible to create a baby?

I just don't get the animosity from the trans-community.

Jay

Not to be too rude about an old subject, but I really had to reply to this when reading it in the archives. A member earlier saw the "she" and "woman" in articles about the transman being pregnant, and that was a good thing to notice. What is funny would be if this transman would be offended by being called a "she", because in my opinion she shouldn't. We all know what it's like to be different, to strive for normality in a world that looks down on us, but it is people like her who set us back. How can she expect to be called a man if she's going to go and get pregnant? Sorry, but like it or not, only women can get pregnant so she is choosing to live her life as both a man and a woman. I am happy to read many responses here who seem to agree that this transman is hurting out community, because she is. I will call her a she so long as she carries a baby and delivers it, like any biological woman would do. It has nothing to do with parenting for me, as kids are raised in worse situations, it just isn't right. If you want to be a man, then be one and accept the roles men play in society. I want to be a woman, I *am* a woman, and I embrace it. Clearly this...person...has issues with that. As I am sure many transmen and transwomen do here. We don't need media like this, holding us back more. Once again I am impressed and proud to read the responses here.

[Guest MelanieAnne]

I was just stating my opinion, which I still stand by. I believe there is nothing wrong with a transman choosing to have children before transition. I believe if you want children then you have the right to have them. However, I believe Thomas' whole ordeal was ridiculous in the fact a "man is pregnant". It is quite obvious you need a uterus and a womb to have a baby, and though I consider transmen MEN, I still stand by my decision "he" should not be offensive if people call "him" a she. Thomas is pregnant, after all.

[Guest My_Genesis]

JayJaye, to answer your question, it was a different issue in your case, because you stated earlier that you were in denial about being trans at the time you had a child. Thomas, however, acknowledged being FTM while simultaneously being shown all over the media as a "pregnant man". It's not like he was questioning his gender identity, at least he claimed that he is FTM, so then why contradict that? It reinforces the rest of society's image of us as a very confused group of people who want to break the rules society has set in place and make everyone else confused about the concept of gender. I don't really oppose his decision, even though I cannot comprehend the concept fully...I just don't like the way trans people are only seen in the media in these "extravagant" ways...such as what I mentioned before on youtube, about how most of the videos are about trans porn and prostitutes..or it's all sensationalized, like jerry springer. I feel like telling the world that what I want more than anything is to just be a normal member of society - which is the exact opposite of what people's views are of us. With these being pretty much the only trans-related stories that come up in the media, it gives the public the idea that we want to stand out and be different, cause huge uproars of controversy. The exact opposite of the way I want people to see me... :-/

[Guest silverpetals]

bump.

[Guest Quinn]

I...really forget if I posted here or not, but you know what? This all really, really annoys me.

I'm sorry if it offends anyone, but I am, at least partially, one of the "Dude, you went through ALL this stuff to be accepted as a man...then go around and mess everything up." Seriously. Hormone therapy, surgery, everything. And then he does the HUGEST female-orientated thing possible. Sure, there are things mostly females do, things that are pretty androgynous, but no...this is something COMPLETELY and utterly female. If it was something else, it wouldn't have hurt so bad, but how stupid does not only he, but do we seem now? It just pushes the "See? They really AREN'T male, and they never really CAN be" belief so many jerks say constantly.

And you know what? I'm tired of that "well they wanted to have ~children~!" bull. Great! If they wanted children that badly, they could have adopted. There are millions of babies who need homes. And don't give me anything about them wanting a child that looks like them either - guess what guys, not all adoptees are from Africa or Asia.

Oh, and who was the person who said other people have done this? Yes, other people have done this. I still have a lot more respect for them, because you know what? Nobody KNOWS much, if anything, about those people. Nobody heard about them. They didn't prance around on Oprah. At the end of the day, do what you want, but don't throw yourself at the media.

I think the way this guy went about doing things was very wrong. Maybe males having their own children is just another taboo our society will tackle and become semi-accepting or just plain accepting of in time. But right now, this just seems unnecessary, all the publicity he pulled towards himself. If other people did it more quietly, he could have too. And like I said, they could've adopted, too.

[Guest Cody_T]

And you know what? I'm tired of that "well they wanted to have ~children~!" bull. Great! If they wanted children that badly, they could have adopted. There are millions of babies who need homes. And don't give me anything about them wanting a child that looks like them either - guess what guys, not all adoptees are from Africa or Asia.

I definitely agree. If he really just wanted kids I think he would have adopted. I personally would go ahead with using a surrogate, but only because the kid could be genetically related to both of its parents. I would adopt way before I would ever even consider carrying a child myself. For someone whose kid is half random internet sperm donor, I don't understand the reasoning behind it. There are so many kids who are dying for a home, and you don't have to order them in sperm canisters from the internet. If he really wanted to do something good he should have adopted.

I think the way this guy went about doing things was very wrong. Maybe males having their own children is just another taboo our society will tackle and become semi-accepting or just plain accepting of in time. But right now, this just seems unnecessary, all the publicity he pulled towards himself. If other people did it more quietly, he could have too. And like I said, they could've adopted, too.

I don't think that males having their own children will be a taboo that is accepted just because I don't think it will be there to need accepting. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't want to have a kid that I have to carry, and I would absolutely never do that after transition. Before, at least you're not compromising your image. Maybe other people are more open to that idea, but I just feel like it's not something that's really going to coming up, except maybe in homosexual relationships, but like I said there are surrogates. And he definitely could have and should have done this quietly. He's not doing anyone a favor by making people think we all want to have our own kids now, because being pregnant just emphasizes a female identity which isn't what we need.

And doing it twice is just selfish

[Guest CharlieRose]

I thought I posted here, but it says I didn't, so...

I'm glad I didn't, because when this first came out I felt pretty much the same as you guys.

But then I started thinking about my future.

Now, adopting kids, I was totally all for. I have wanted to adopt kids before I even knew I was a guy, because the idea of ME being pregnant was just... strange. That was my attitude until, like, a few months ago, when I actually started looking up adoption.

Nowadays... adoption can be REALLY difficult. More and more unwanted children are aborted or raised by their single mothers, rather than being put up for adoption. Lots of the women who originally plan to give up their babies change their minds. It can take years to get a baby. Internationally, heck, I checked that out, too. After the paperwork and expense, good luck getting a baby less than six months, because if you don't, they're at risk for developing attachment disorder. No matter how loving and supportive their family is, an adopted child can develop it if they're put through such a big, dramatic change between six months and three years old. An older child, well, first, they're an older child, if you're going internationally they might not even speak English as well as a host of other complications, and if they're from America, they probably haven't had the greatest first years of their life if they're up for adoption now, which can make their upbringing, again, complicated.

It's not hopeless, but it really makes the idea of having a biological child, with no one's permission and no extra cost, seem very convenient in comparison.

If I married a man, we would probably adopt most, if not all of our kids. But I would seriously consider carrying one, maybe two of them. I don't need to feel the joy of nuturing life inside me, or anything like that. I wouldn't go on Oprah; I would probably try to pass as fat for as long as I could, and then lay low, stay in my house or the company of friends until I had it. I wouldn't be proud, and if I married a woman she would definitely have the children. But if I wanted a baby, that's one way to get one. And that makes me feel feminine enough... What man aspires to raise children, you know, in a non-pass-on-the-family-name way? But I think that babies are cute, I always have, and I suppose the reason I want children is that I really love my big family and want one of my own... Blegh, I know I'm a girly man... But this realization doesn't change the fact that I'm a guy and I would never in a million years want to go back to trying to be a girl.

And, about the kids knowing that their father had them, I wouldn't expect any kid to be able to understand that. I wouldn't tell them the truth until they could. And I would have them first, so that they and their siblings would be too young to remember or realize how they came into existence.

I dunno, I'm overthinking this; it's not going to happen for at least ten years, if it does at all, and if it does, I'm sure we'll think it over then, too. I've never been in a relationship, maybe I won't get married at all, how do I know what my spouse will think about this? (Which makes me feel girly, thinking about my future husband!!! It's funny, though, when I thought I was a girl, I had none of these desires or plans. It was only when I realized I wanted to be a husband, not a wife, that I realized I wanted to have a spouse.) But I suppose it's a perspective to consider.

[Guest JamieDude]

Who are we to judge his decision?

It annoys me endlessly when people call him "her" because he identifies as male, and whatever he has done, we should respect his identification as male.

Why should trans-guys settle for "second-best" - being unable to be a biological parent of their own child, potentially. Not certainly, because there are ways of storing eggs, but potentially.

If there are two women, an assigned woman and a transwoman in a relationship, it wouldn't be seen as an issue if the transwoman inseminated her partner, in order to have children, but because it's the other way round, people see it as an issue.

Transguys will (almost) always have XX chromasones, will never have exact replicas of the bodies that biomales have, so why should we continue to settle for being second-class, when we have the option of using our bodies to their best, just as assigned males do.

[Guest Evan_J]

Why should trans-guys settle for "second-best" - being unable to be a biological parent of their own child,

Because it is part of the territory of being a sterile male. And at the point where you decide that you will live as a man and as men do then you accept what is that legacy. If I live as a man I know that I am not allowed in the womens room. I know that there's a reason mother's are hysterical at the idea of little girls sitting on my lap. And I will know why its assumed that the doctor sticks his hand up my but and asks me to cough. I accept that. Because that is part of being a man. If I am a black man. Right or wrong, I accept that women will "worry" if they're walking alone and its late. Or that I might get pulled over more frequently. Are those things fair? No. And I can work to change them but I'll have to do it the same way as any other man and admitting to some of the justifications to the contrary that other men have made in those peoples minds, because thats the segment that I am classified as.

That's like asking me why I can't be female if its convenient for a second and then when I get done "oh I'm a man again now". They won't even let me use the word for that on this board. -But it makes great fertilizer.

But here's the issue, at least with my viewpoint, and it was mentioned in Cody's post, What was wrong with a surrogate? I get the "convenient and cheap" issues and if thats what its about (sorry for making it sound not as "nice" Charlie but you get me) then I can understand those. Much as I can likewise appreciate Charlie when he said "I'd do do it, but I wouldn't be proud of it" (<--paraphrase) because then I feel in his statement he recognizes he's doing something that isn't a part of being male but well circumsances being what they are.... But to pose all hand on stomach? Come on. He coulda saved the money from the meta and done the entire vagina bit.

No, I would not call Thomas a "she" just because its disrespectful to Thomas as a human being.

I am sorry if I sound like a class A chauvanist, sexist, prick, (though if ya really know me I am) but all the "you are trans if you feel you are" statements aside, where really ARE we differenciating what is a man and what is not. Cus if there's no difference - and in the scenario of what this person did he blurred it- then why the heck do ANY of us need to transition? We're all just "combos". Everybody in the world is. And there is no "need to be male" and no "need to be female". We can all just hold hands and go to valhalla and germinate us some offspring asexually. I mean, what is "being a man" to you then? And beyond the "being responsible, courageous, a provider" answers. I mean the hard, absolute, "it makes me different from a woman" answers that a woman cannot replicate.

And before anybody wants to go there with the "but we can't have a functioning penis" route, functional or not, its a fantastic replica if you do it right.

[Guest JamieDude]

You might think it is, but persnally, I see no reason to settle for second best - being sterile, if you're not, and I see no reason for him to hide who he is under a barrel, if he wants to get pregnant, good for him, and yes, his actions may have had negative repurcussions, but who are we to judge on an individual's choice.

For once, a transguy has the advantage over a cisguy - he CAN get pregnant, and as he can, I see no reason why he shouldn't exercise that advantage, god knows we have enough disadvantages.

If they could make you a fully functioning penis with sperm tailored from your chromasomes, then I'd be surprised if a transguy got pregnant, and would maybe support it less, because he'd have other options, but it'd still be his choice

It seems to me that there are two issues here - a transguy getting pregnant and him making it a media circus.

[Guest Evan_J]

Theres definately tow issues. The getting pregnant itself, and the media exploitation of it.

The thing for me in saying he isn't/wasn't sterile is that he wasn't sterile for a woman, but as a man -due to that very inablity to shoot sperm- he is a sterile man. Why is any other man sterile? Because of some physiological inabilty within the male body. And if you're endevouring to live [b]in[/b] a male body then yours is sterile. Thats why its an attempt to "flip-flop" Ooop, I'm a man cuz I'm in a man body, but no, its not a man body because I'm gonna make it perform as only a female body can. I'm sorry but I'm gonna have to actually dang near repeat the sentiment of my own therapist and I disliked the way he said it cuz itwasn't nearly nice and wasn't even related to this; "if you want to be [done] like a woman, and have a [vagina] and all of that then say so, maybe you are a transgenderist, maygbe you're a "third" sex, say that, but if you are a MAN then do what men do."

Sorry folks, I'm gonna calm down, I swear it, the whole thing just gets me peed in particular due to the second issue; the media part. Taking all of the above and admitting that because of his one action -whether anybody agrees with it or not- you must admit that it is being viewed as "he's not a man" by and large and regardless of his own "rights" he has single handedly undermined FtMs as a whole to be acknowledged as men. It basically says "they are not 'really' " men and maybe you ought to find out if one of em wants to have vaginal sex or anything else and be handled like a woman cuz if that one wants to do that then maybe theres a lot else they want to do like women.

[Guest JamieDude]

I can understand the sentiment in the second part of it - that a lot of people doubt his masculinity now that he has done this, and that a lot of other transguys have been tarred with the same brush, but to me, I refuse to feel that as relevant - I am who I am, and he is who he is, maybe I'm just an idealist, but it's what I think. If I'm damaged by this, so be it, and maybe in future I can do something to correct that damage, maybe not, but I shouldn't let the selfish part of me that feels my chances of being seen as male are hurt override the pleasure I have that he's got pregnant.

I believe that he is a man, and is doing what men do - he's having kids, just as many other men do, but in a slightly different way. I feel disadvantaged enough being a guy in a girls body, I'm not about to disadvantage myself further by cutting off courses of action because they're not stereotypically male.

Maybe this is where we, as people, differ - you identify as Male, I as FtM.