Living Two-Spirit?

[Guest meaenglsh]

I am glad you shared your journey Meaenglsh. I lived almost all my life as a male but inside the female was always strong. Pushed to the back and held down but still there. Now that i've let her out and live my life as a woman the male is i've found still there and i've come to accept that as never before. If that is what is meant by two spirit i am certainly living it today with a peace of mind i never dreamed i could possess.

Hugs,

Charlie

thanks Charlie. there are so many of us.

[Guest Squallsong]

I never really "left", I just limited myself while I "adjust my balance" ...it seems I may be a tad older than I felt...and here I thought I was invincible.

I've been doing some spiritual healing while struggling to follow the doctor's orders...this May will mark 6 months since my "cardiac event" and I am getting anxious. Hoping to be "cleared for take-off", as our snow is finally leaving. I've been checking in here every couple weeks, and I've been meaning to get at some posts and my blog...but it seems that unstable angina doesn't like the peaceful feeling I get here, and nitro is like a spray-on migraine...pfft! I find it's almost laughable that I find some peace, only to discover that turmoil has been keeping me running...I am glad that I never claimed to have all the answers!

Be well and take care!

[Guest Dana_L]

Hello

Much of my life is a mystery, some of which I am at peace with leaving it so. One thing always bothered me though. I have a need to understand where it is I come from. I did a little research a few years ago, and I learned about my father and his family tree. I never knew my father, and the subject was something that was best left alone early on. I never associated my features to any specifics. I just saw me when I looked in the mirror. Throughout my life I had been referred to as something, and it was a very common occurrence. When I saw the facts though it confirmed pretty much what I already felt was true. I'm very content with my heritage, I'm happy with my identity as being part Native American. Very recently I heard about Two-Spirit. A while ago someone assumed that I was Two-Spirit just because I am transgender, and my Native blood. I read about as much as I could. I think I could be. My mother loves and supports me, but has a need to still love me as her son. I can feel it in my heart, along with her fears she expressed to me about loosing me as her son -part of the mourning process. She knows that I am Dana, but she also knows me as her son. I am honored with my love towards my mother to be both for her. In that way, I think I am Two-Spirit. It is natural for me to exist as both, and as I talked to her about this, she understands it much better, and we are closer still.

It is a very unique relationship, one that I am at peace with. It is singular. I am still completely feel feminine as a whole, and it was something difficult to understand myself at first, but letting it simply be what it was for the sake of love made it true.

[Guest Razilee]

It was mentioned at this week's Al-Anon meeting that the alcoholic has two different personalities, one drunk and one sober, and it made me think of my own situation. I don't drink, and I don't suddenly change personalities depending on my presentation, at least not completely. There seems to be some of both of my spirits acting at once, though one usually more dominate. It's what Jung would say ego and anima both rather strong. Balance seems to be more important than extremes one way or the other for me. To truly be me I need to express all of me.

Love,

Raz

[TeamEffort]

On 9/22/2013 at 7:17 PM, Squallsong said:

I don't believe all two spirit are Native American, so I'll try to keep non-denominational here unless I'm told otherwise...the category is "Two Spirit", not "Midewiwin" or "Red Road".

For me, I have had to give up much. I have two spirits, and just one body. That means each spirit had to concede "half" to the other. Think of it as a marriage that cannot ever end in divorce. Both have some similar needs, and interests...those are sacred, and dealing with these is when both spirits will be at peace and in the most altruistic state of love.

SO MUCH TO SAY ABOUT ALL THIS. Sorry, yes, capslocking but OMG...

First -- this is absolutely me. I've known about the term "Two Spirit" for years, but as I am probably white (no idea, haven't done the DNA test, I have adoption in my parentage) and don't even try to connect with Native culture because I have no lineage, I have felt completely barred from even using the term. I have seen Native people say that to use it is appropriation, so I have no choice but to respect that and leave it alone. Which leaves me very alone and without a people.

But this is us. There is me, the female bisexual tomboy and original occupant of the body, and there is him, the spirit guide who came to me a number of years ago and who is with me nearly all of the time (unless he's off doing his work). He can and does "drive the vehicle" frequently, and after so many years of working together like this, the shift back and forth between who is in the front seat is effortless. This is NOT a "split personality" or DID -- we are two separate beings entirely, he is not my "higher self" or a part of me created by trauma, etc. He is very much from elsewhere and has simply come to live here.

We do sometimes disagree on appearance, but we discuss and compromise, even if he rolls his eyes at my flamboyant nail colors. Because when he's in the front and driving, then HIS nails are that color and he haaaaates it, to which I say too bad! LOL But he's good-natured about it. He's shown me about dressing more masculine and how to look good doing it, and it's been very freeing and exciting for me, as I've never felt very comfortable in girly clothing. I have photos of myself as a child and other than long hair I look very boyish.

I know this is all reading like a boring intro post, but bear with me. The reason I joined this forum today was because of this thread, and that it was in the spiritual section of the site.

He and I are work partners first and foremost on a spiritual level. We do energy work, "magic" if you want to call it that, travels to other planes, and so on. I am the physical world anchor, he is the spirit realm anchor, and together we straddle these for the Great Work of which we are part. We do not do Native or any other culture-specific rituals, because we fall outside of those frameworks. We simply do what we do. Sometimes it's like what other cultures or people have done, sometimes it's not. We don't go looking to mine other belief systems, but sometimes we do get ideas that we work into our own ways of doing things, like how certain types of stones help do certain things, or using native plants that grow wild in the area in ways that I've been taught by the local people with their blessing.

We are not trying to "appropriate" the words "Two Spirit" or take away anything from any culture. It is simply the most accurate description of what and who we are, and how we live and work together as a team. There is no equivalent phrase in American English or I would be using it.

I'm blessed to have found this. Thank you. I hope and pray I can finally find some kindred spirits here, and be allowed to use the phrase without accusations or guilt.

[Guest]

Welcome. Oh and you are not the Lone Ranger. I enjoy reading this because it's like a page from my life. You are not alone, you have found a wonderfully safe place to talk about this. Enjoy the forum. Hug. JodyAnn

[TeamEffort]

16 minutes ago, JodyAnn said:

Welcome. Oh and you are not the Lone Ranger. I enjoy reading this because it's like a page from my life. You are not alone, you have found a wonderfully safe place to talk about this. Enjoy the forum. Hug. JodyAnn

Thank you thank you thank you thank you. Thank you. Did I say thank you? Thank you.

Realizing that I didn't really get much into the original topic or question of this thread... daily life this way.

I present as primarily female, but am nearly always in gender neutral clothing, or sometimes men's clothing (occasional dress shirt and tie when going to a special thing, "newsboy" caps, flannel shirts bought in the men's or boy's section, jeans and a novelty tee, asskicking boots, earth tone plaid winter scarves, etc.).

I already wouldn't wear pink frilly glittery stuff and strongly dislike makeup (lipstick is especially gross) then when he came along, it simply increased the amount of masculinity in my life. He showed me how to tie a tie (!) and we pick out clothing together usually, including dapper/vintage such as the shoes in our profile pic. I have a lot of black, blue, red, green, and brown in my closet... our closet...

I won't let go of my crazy nail colors though, and my long hair (although we recently started rocking a side cut and I LOVE it, no more wispy annoying strands next to my ears!), and interesting jewelry. Jewelry is a challenge -- I have my more female stuff, he has his very simple masculine stuff, and we sort of discuss and compromise

We use unisex or gender neutral soaps, toiletries, and perfumes whenever possible. Sometimes I do like a bit of floral perfume, especially this one Avon classic that reminds me of my childhood, and he's okay with a lavender fougere or "shower fresh" neutral deodorant, but usually we wear or use scents with a lot of leather, herbs, resins and woods... but not anything too strongly "male cologne." Male deodorants are WAY too strong on my body.

WE LOVE DOLLAR SHAVE CLUB AND BLACK PHOENIX ALCHEMY LAB!

One big thing... I can't just do everything we want. My husband is aware of my guide being around, but is not real excited about the idea, does not know how much my guide shares the body, and does not know that a lot of the clothing choices I've made over the past few years (like neckties) are being influenced or asked for by my male guide. I've always been a tomboy, but I do have to be careful that I don't get too masculine for my strongly cis het husband's comfort. He married me, not my male guide who came after, and I completely respect that.

[Jennifer T]

@TeamEffort, I very much enjoyed reading your posts here. Thank you for being so open. 

I am of Celtic (Scots) and Cherokee heritage. I have been exploring my roots and the belief systems of my ancestors for a very long time. As for using the term two-spirit, while a term coined by modern day Native Americans for the various tribal terms for their transgendered and non gender conforming members, I am not personally aware of any Native American restrictions regarding using such. In Native American culture and tradition, we are all brothers and sisters on this planet. I've been to powwows and seen this embraced.

While I do not personally see myself as two individuals inhabiting the same body, I do understand that my transgendered condition affords me a 'sight' or understanding not typically shared by cis-gendered people. And I do ofter in conversation refer to "T" (the man i had to become to exist in this world) and "Jennifer" (the girl in me who retreated many years ago to a safe haven in my heart) as separate individuals to express the views I have of life. 

Welcome. And be Two-Spirit here, freely.

Peace

[TeamEffort]

On 1/3/2017 at 6:04 AM, Jennifer T said:

 

Welcome. And be Two-Spirit here, freely.

Peace

Not going to cry... not going to cry...

[Jennifer T]

12 hours ago, TeamEffort said:

Not going to cry... not going to cry...

Do-hi-yi.

[TeamEffort]

I've seen these articles, or ones like them, before when researching the term "Two Spirit" in the past. They stop me from using the term as an ethnically-unknown-but-probably-white person:

Toward an End to Appropriation of Indigenous “Two Spirit” People in Trans Politics: the Relationship Between Third Gender Roles and Patriarchy

A Letter to White People Using the Term “Two Spirit”

I don't know what to do. We literally have two spirits in here. I don't know what else to call what we are. But it's clearly NOT okay. Maybe I should save up for the genetic test and if there's Native in this body, it would be okay. But there probably isn't. Probably just a mutt. Just pick a DNA culture you feel nothing for.

I'm lost again. Never good enough for anybody. Happiness and completion and belonging anywhere feel completely impossible right now.

[MarcieMarie12]

Honestly, I thought one person's comments sums up my own opinion. The words are english, a refer to a certain condition that you may or may not identify with. It does have a significant cultural connection to some Native American traditions--but not all. I am sure if you asked 100 native americans about it you'd get some who would not like it, some who find it amusing and most probably would not care. As an American, we are known to take stuff from other cultures and integrate into our own.

[TeamEffort]

21 minutes ago, MarcieMarie12 said:

 As an American, we are known to take stuff from other cultures and integrate into our own.

That's what cultural appropriation is.

[TeamEffort]

On 12/30/2016 at 10:55 AM, JodyAnn said:

Welcome. Oh and you are not the Lone Ranger. I enjoy reading this because it's like a page from my life. You are not alone, you have found a wonderfully safe place to talk about this. Enjoy the forum. Hug. JodyAnn

Please say a bit more about what you mean here? I really need to feel like less of a last unicorn wandering in the wilderness. You can message privately if you want.

[Guest Squallsong]

Qwey!

I'm still around (I lurk ), I've just found myself very busy and making great advances, so I've had to severely restrict the use of my time.  Additional to my usual responsibilities, I've taken on some new ones within my community to raise awareness, joined a newly formed LGBTQ2S+ group that has "pushed" me into somewhat of a mentoring role, and signed on as part of the bureaucracy that is reforming trans healthcare in my province.  Additionally, I've been in transition for better than two years now, I'm in the process of legally changing all my documentation and I've managed to survive the province's extremely long waitlist for surgery, so big changes lie ahead, and my spirits are both excited yet at peace!

I'm seeing a lot of discussion on appropriation here, and would like to again state that the word "two spirit" is an English word describing a Native American concept.  We should all be concerned with appropriation, but in this matter, I do not believe it applies.  Some Native cultures hold very different beliefs, with several defined genders and sexuality, while others use a generalized term to describe anyone that does not clearly fit into a male or female definition (in both gender and sexuality), and yet others that simply do not define gender or sexuality at all.  It is one thing to claim that you have two spirits (and in my personal "religious" doctrines, EVERYBODY has two) and it is entirely another to claim that you are "Nijosi" (which is the word for people of alternate sexuality and/or non-binary people in my language).

I would like to share a news article from last year which may help explain the idea:

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/indigenous-languages-recognize-gender-states-not-even-named-in-english/article29130778/

Do not feel that you are violating our culture with the use of a contemporary term.  There is much about being "two spirited" that you may not fully understand or practice in your beliefs...but a "two spirit" that is practicing their own cultural beliefs does not use that Anglicized term in reference to themselves within their own culture, as it is not in their cultural lexicon.

I'll continue to watch, and pitch in whenever I can, especially on this topic/thread.

Be well and take care!

Squallsong

 

[VickySGV]

Thank you for coming back in here @Squallsong and shedding some more light on this topic.  I very much enjoy your posts and helpful insight on this general set of topics and get some new insight of my own.

[TeamEffort]

On 1/3/2017 at 6:04 AM, Jennifer T said:

@TeamEffort, I very much enjoyed reading your posts here. Thank you for being so open. 

I am of Celtic (Scots) and Cherokee heritage. I have been exploring my roots and the belief systems of my ancestors for a very long time. As for using the term two-spirit, while a term coined by modern day Native Americans for the various tribal terms for their transgendered and non gender conforming members, I am not personally aware of any Native American restrictions regarding using such. In Native American culture and tradition, we are all brothers and sisters on this planet. I've been to powwows and seen this embraced.

Welcome. And be Two-Spirit here, freely.

Peace

No. We can't. I was hearing your words before, and thought it was safe, but... no. We got put in our place today. "Two spirit" is off limits. Just like everything else. Thanks for your kindness though. It meant a lot.

Thanks also to @Squallsong for helping me feel like I belonged somewhere, even if it was only for a few months. Our fate is to wander it seems.

[Aanzinaago'Stephanie]

9 hours ago, TeamEffort said:

No. We can't. I was hearing your words before, and thought it was safe, but... no. We got put in our place today. "Two spirit" is off limits. Just like everything else. Thanks for your kindness though. It meant a lot.

Thanks also to @Squallsong for helping me feel like I belonged somewhere, even if it was only for a few months. Our fate is to wander it seems.

When did you got put into your place? As I stated in the other thread, be the two-spirited person you are.

[MarcieMarie12]

On 1/13/2017 at 0:45 PM, TeamEffort said:

That's what cultural appropriation is.

Well, nothing wrong with it. It is how things evolve culturally when different populations merge their cultures merge along with it. My response to someone complaining about it (or being offended would be that is their problem not mine.  

[Tejana]

On 1/13/2017 at 11:19 AM, MarcieMarie12 said:

Honestly, I thought one person's comments sums up my own opinion. The words are english, a refer to a certain condition that you may or may not identify with. It does have a significant cultural connection to some Native American traditions--but not all. I am sure if you asked 100 native americans about it you'd get some who would not like it, some who find it amusing and most probably would not care. As an American, we are known to take stuff from other cultures and integrate into our own.

Hhmmm....I'm impressed.

 

On 1/13/2017 at 11:45 AM, TeamEffort said:

That's what cultural appropriation is.

Cultural Appropriation....The term has currently become an opprobrium in the American-English lexicon.  However, I believe that we should consider that w/o it, human progress would have stagnated or died in the far distant past.  W/o it today...the future of humankind would soon become bleak or even blighted.  Frankly, I think rejecting something because someone or some folks in the next county/country thought/adopted it first is silly at best & a bad idea at the worst.

 

2 hours ago, MarcieMarie12 said:

Well, nothing wrong with it. It is how things evolve culturally when different populations merge their cultures merge along with it. My response to someone complaining about it (or being offended would be that is their problem not mine.  

Good thought...but more & more these days, I'm finding that my enemies' problems are becoming something that must be defended against.  {Personal & community safety issues, ya'know.]

[TeamEffort]

On 3/8/2017 at 3:57 AM, Aanzinaago'Stephanie said:

When did you got put into your place? As I stated in the other thread, be the two-spirited person you are.

It seemed crystal clear to me that it's for Native people only and that you think I'm trying to make it into something it's not. I was just looking for some kind of phrase/label/term/category that made sense to us and others. We'll keep looking.

[VickySGV]

Just a quick reminder here that this forum is a Safe Haven for everyone who follows or respects the notion of being Two Spirit.  Mutual respect is the key here that needs to be kept in mind.  The dialogue at this point is becoming circular and needs to find resolution of some sort to soften or relax the mounting tension I am feeling here.  All spiritual concepts are a matter of a journey and not of an arrival and each person's journey may intersect with another's for a short while and then diverge and go a different way.

In writing this, I am putting my Moderator Hat on and will be following the thread to be sure that frustrations do not build up. 

[Jennifer T]

On March 7, 2017 at 9:21 PM, TeamEffort said:

No. We can't. I was hearing your words before, and thought it was safe, but... no. We got put in our place today. "Two spirit" is off limits. Just like everything else. Thanks for your kindness though. It meant a lot.

Thanks also to @Squallsong for helping me feel like I belonged somewhere, even if it was only for a few months. Our fate is to wander it seems.

Hello again @TeamEffort.  I mentioned before my ancestral heritage. Again, for me because of the fractured childhood I had, knowing about my lineage has been important to me. And I began my journey of tracing that lineage based on the verbal histories I was handed by my mother. The Celtic roots have been a joy to follow and because of the Scottish Clan Societies, written records of the clans are amazingly well researched and preserved.

But Native American ancestry is far more difficult to ascertain.  Written records for many peoples in Appalachia are sparse. And often verbals are all one can find.

So this past Christmas my wife got me an ancestry DNA test.  I was so excited!!  The results came back last weekend. They concluded that my genetic make  up is almost completely from the Celtic line with some Scandinavian and Germanic tied in. There was even a trace (less than 2%) percentage of Jewish DNA. But there was 0% Native American. 

So what do I do with the verbal   histories? Apparently the person from whom I supposedly inherited Cherokee ancestry, was not a blood relative of mine. Since my youth I've studied the Nation. And yet, there is no true blood connection. So, I've stepped up my genealogy research to try and determine the break.

I've said all this simply to address a point. Namely this:  None of this information changes who I am. It will all give  me understanding and  knowledge that I deeply desire. But I am still the person I've always been.  We humans have this almost insufferable predilection to define and categorize ourselves; to fit our essences into neat little boxes that are more easily digestible and palatable than the often complex and abstract entities we are.  If nothing else, our historicaland  evolving 'trans' identities and understandings of such should bear that out!

If 'Two-Spirit' defines TeamEffort for you, then embrace it.  Be so freely, if for no other reason than to afford your soul some rest. In my heart and mind, yes you are safe here.  I may now have no authority or credibility to speak for the Nation, but I can still speak for me. And my heart still beats with the ancient rhythms of this land and hears the call of the drums.

Peace.

 

 

[Guest Squallsong]

Qwey!

Seeing people looking into genealogy is all good, science is a wonderful tool that helps explain much in a manner that transcends religion, political views and other such dogma.  We must however, not lose sight of our history!  It was common practice among almost every Native tribe to adopt outsiders, especially those who were helpless (such as orphaned children, widowed women or injured and lost/abandoned settlers), as if they were blood relatives!  Many tribes were matrilineal (men joined their wife's "tribe") and many European men had Native wives (which began Metis culture).  Some of your verbal histories may help uncover this.

My mtDNA defines me as being of Algonquian descent, but that does not mean that I am Algonquin.  I have a great-great-grandfather that was Norwegian/Dane...that does not mean that I am Viking.  None of my children have Algonquin Mothers (my partner is Ojibwa, and like my matrilineal heritage dictates, I am part of her community, and so are our children, despite all of them having one "white" parent (we have no children from our union).  Other families among my specific Algonquin "tribe" have considerable amounts of French ancestry.  Our DNA does not define us.  What makes me Algonquin is that I follow the traditions and maintain the values of my ancestors.  This is why I claim to be "two-spirit"...and again, I cannot stress enough that the term is contemporary English, with a definition that is an approximation of terms for LGBT people from over 180 different native languages.  I do not expect people to know my language, so this term is acceptable to me as it is respectful, demonstrates the heritage and pride that people like us traditionally upheld, and is universal, promoting the understanding that we in the LGBT community seek.

Certainly there are "fake indians", "plastic shaman" and appropriation that can harm us, and we should always be vigilant for things that can harm us...but my ancestors embraced people that were from different races and religions, who did not share their values; and my ancestors were not fearful, hateful nor prejudiced...in following my heritage, I make considerable efforts to resist these spiritual toxins as well! 

I whole-heartedly agree with VickySGV, this forum is a sanctuary; a place for what we as "two-spirit" people hold sacred, and that is, first and foremost, respect for everyone and everything in creation.

Be well and take care!

[DaHudie Biz]

13 hours ago, Squallsong said:

Qwey!

Seeing people looking into genealogy is all good, science is a wonderful tool that helps explain much in a manner that transcends religion, political views and other such dogma.  We must however, not lose sight of our history!  It was common practice among almost every Native tribe to adopt outsiders, especially those who were helpless (such as orphaned children, widowed women or injured and lost/abandoned settlers), as if they were blood relatives!  Many tribes were matrilineal (men joined their wife's "tribe") and many European men had Native wives (which began Metis culture).  Some of your verbal histories may help uncover this.

My mtDNA defines me as being of Algonquian descent, but that does not mean that I am Algonquin.  I have a great-great-grandfather that was Norwegian/Dane...that does not mean that I am Viking.  None of my children have Algonquin Mothers (my partner is Ojibwa, and like my matrilineal heritage dictates, I am part of her community, and so are our children, despite all of them having one "white" parent (we have no children from our union).  Other families among my specific Algonquin "tribe" have considerable amounts of French ancestry.  Our DNA does not define us.  What makes me Algonquin is that I follow the traditions and maintain the values of my ancestors.  This is why I claim to be "two-spirit"...and again, I cannot stress enough that the term is contemporary English, with a definition that is an approximation of terms for LGBT people from over 180 different native languages.  I do not expect people to know my language, so this term is acceptable to me as it is respectful, demonstrates the heritage and pride that people like us traditionally upheld, and is universal, promoting the understanding that we in the LGBT community seek.

Certainly there are "fake indians", "plastic shaman" and appropriation that can harm us, and we should always be vigilant for things that can harm us...but my ancestors embraced people that were from different races and religions, who did not share their values; and my ancestors were not fearful, hateful nor prejudiced...in following my heritage, I make considerable efforts to resist these spiritual toxins as well! 

I whole-heartedly agree with VickySGV, this forum is a sanctuary; a place for what we as "two-spirit" people hold sacred, and that is, first and foremost, respect for everyone and everything in creation.

What this boils down to is we are all culturally unique. I'm a part of the African-American community even though I am white. I call myself Black because of this because I call Black history and philosophy the bases point on which my education is rooted.

It's like it is the culture I was raised under. There wasn't a true Black mother or father per say, but the people that new how to meet my needs were all in this cultural framework. It was my destiny to seek out what I think can be called elders in the communities of oppressed peoples.

Next I found Judaism. Then I found pride in having been Irish by birth, and consequently Native American.

What I am saying, and hope this feels supportive, is that we embed yourself no matter the source into a culture. So that is what we become. Birth prescribes a color, but every other element is learned including to some degree gender even if that is some what genetic also.