Living As An Androgyne

[Guest NickSister]

How many people here live openly as an Androgyne? How do you do it? Very Successful? What does appearing Androgyne mean to you?

I can't say I am out of the closet. I don't exactly hide it but I do curb my desires to be what I feel inside. So for me it used to be all about the accessories. I dress similar to most males but include make-up, nailpolish, womens shoes.. This enables me to be 'hidden' but still combat some of my dysphoria.

I think the difficult bit would be to be recognisably androgyne (assuming that is what you want). I find that it is easy to be misread as gay, drag queen, or transsexual. We don't exist for the general public so we can't be recognised as something people have never heard of. Most people will still try to classify you as male or female when really you don't fit in either camp or fit in both at the same time. At best I guess you would get "I don't know, I think they are a girl".

I find it difficult to imagine being someone that achieved a truly androgynous look, or what that might be - except maybe that I would look like that Hanson boy. Maybe no true "Androgyne" presentation exists. But maybe this does not matter. Perhaps it is more about what feels right for you and not what others perceive you as.

[Guest Sophie Jean]

Nick, I have asked the same questions myself, and I don't think there is a true androgyne look. If there is, struggling for it would be more stressful than just simply being yourself. For myself, I look at things that are traditionally cross-gender that people in my profession get away with, some items being genderless, and others that are actually feminine. These are the things that I am currently doing that fall into that category:

1. I wear the undergarments of my chosen gender. No one can see, but I can know.

2. I wear golf/polo shirts. These kindof fall into the almost genderless category.

3. Slacks or jeans (sometimes women's cut).

4. Ankle height men's boots.

5. More decorative men's accessories like a gold watch and diamond anniversary band.

6. Longer hair (It's just starting to cover the tops of my ears) with long bangs (I have a receding hairline).

7. Self-manicured feminine style fingernails with transparent pink polish.

8. Berry-color toenails (great with sandals).

9. Clean shaven (this one's a must). I include the whole body except the top of the head here.

10. Well-groomed eyebrows.

What I'm experimenting with and look forward to trying:

11. Eyeshadow.

12. Nude lipstick or lipgloss.

13. Gold, sliver, or pewter necklace.

14. Pierced ears with simple earrings. (Got to get the wife's ok on this one).

So I would recommend just look around at what people get away with in your profession and what you would like to do. You might be surprised. Don't forget there's that whole metrosexual look you can tap into.

[Guest Kaimialana]

Androgyne to me is a gender identification. It is the way I identify. If you want to get into the whole "mind-sex" metaphore (which I don't personally like, it causes people to confuse gender and sex even more) its like taking male and female identities, and running them into each other at 500 mph, with the aftermess being a grey goopy mess of inseperability. I don't live openly, at least, not to my family, but I plan on just letting it out to everyone else from now on. I consider androgyny (in the gender identification sense) to be transgender identity. The way I dress and cause my appearance to be is a reflection of the state of my mind. I find it helpful that I already have some physical traits that helps me look that way. Its not a lifestyle, its who I am.

I find myself angry at the moment. I have just been told about the whole HBS scandal, and the prejudice of these people bothers me to no end. But what also bothers me is the way that androgyne is still seen as a physical think, and not a gender identity, and even here on these forums. I saw in the other thread that people still think of gender as such a black/white thing. And, if you are transgender, you are either a transexual (HBS) or a transgenderist (apparently someone who takes hormones and changes their appearance to gain sexual pleasure). Or you are not transgender and just a crossdresser. I am transgender, and I am not a transexual, or a transgenderist. I don't want to change my sex (not that you can, not with modern technology; all SRS is, is a cosmetic thing) nor do I derive sexual pleasure from who I am. Not even a truly complete sexchange, cromosomes and everything, would make me feel right. I'd be stuck in the same situation I am already. And I have hard enough trouble convincing people that sex=/=gender identity=/= sexual orientation, to have to convince them in addition that transgender does not have to equal transgenderist or transexual!

That being said, I do try to cultivate an androgynous appearance. I keep my eyebrows a certain way, my hair a certain way, my clothing a mixture from either gender. Sometimes I feel more female, so I put on a little bit of makup and wear a skirt. Sometimes I feel more male, so I tie up my hair and wear guys pants. And my behavior matches whatever I am feeling at the time, male or female. But don't get me wrong, there is no male or female "side" of myself. I put walls up to try the whole "bi-gendered" thing once upon a time, but it was just not right, I was trying to separate that mushed gray goop, an impossibility. in adition, I don't go maxiumum in either direction, gender wise. I don't like a manly appearance, nor a womanly one. I would never wear red nail polish for the same reason I wouldn't want to grow a beard. Either one is too far in either direction. I would wear earings, however, because that does not have to be associated with any gender.

*sigh* I'll shut up now, I said my piece.

Edit: Okay, let me clarify when I use the term cosmetic, I use it not in a nonchalant sense. A surgery can be cosmetic but still necessary for someones well being.

Edited July 22, 2007 by Kaimialana

[Guest NickSister]

I think we are on the same wave length here. You are the first person I have read from that actually sounds similar to me.

I think I know exactly what you mean about the androgyne gender identity thing - that it is 'inborn' and not some psychological thing. I reject being a man though I was born physically male, but I don't want to be a woman, yet I feel I have a solid identity. I don't get sexual pleasure from expressing it (though it can be sexual liberating when expressed i.e. I 'operate' better when I can express my gender). I also suffer from feeling like my body does not match my identity. In my earliest memories I have always felt the way I do now, which suggests to me that I was born this way. I do identify more with the feminine though but I don't want srs.

I do have days where I feel either more masculine or feminine just as you do, but regardless of this I still feel like I am me, there is no duality. We are who we are. Personally I would say I am a blend of both yet neither at the same time. I say a blend because there is not that much else to describe and express yourself as.

One of the problems for us seems to be that we don't have a lot to work with. Take away all the gendered traits and gendered looks and you are left with not much at all. This is why I ask the question about how people live and express their androgyny. I guess two ways to cope is to get rid of the extremes or to display conflicting extremes. I think I use both mechanisms, sometimes at the same time. I believe my expression is coloured by a strong survival instinct that affects what I can get away with in my appearance without being discriminated against.

I have small (6mm) flesh tunnels in my ears. Now that I think about it they are a pretty androgynous body mod.

I hate having facial hair, yet I love my side burns. I'm not all that bothered by my body hair.

I don't like male 'suits' - I never wear a tie to the office except for a job interview (got to be piratical sometimes).

Unlike you Kaimialana I love bright nail polish. Red, Gold, Yellow, Copper, Silver....though I keep my nails short as possible.

I wear obviously female rings.

My eyebrows are well groomed.

I have longish hair at the moment, and often tie and pin it up using brightly coloured ties.

Occasionally I wear shoes with a bit of heal, and use eyeliner and mascara.

I prefer well fitted and tailored clothing - shirts and t-shirts, pants, and close fitting tops. I'm not particularly into baggy clothes.

I've been thinking of getting some laser hair removal done on my face - I have almost black hair and pale skin so it should be pretty effective.

Edited July 23, 2007 by NickSister

[Guest Kaimialana]

Actually, I do think gender is largely psychological. But thats not saying that its a lifestyle. The mind is hardwired, its not some semi-gass floaty thing. Whether its from hormones during developement or imprinting and psychological development during early childhood, your gender identification is still valid, even if you discover it late. Psychology is no less real to you, certainly no less real than the poorly defined set of characters that make up gender is. It is who you are, and there should be no reason for anyone to feel there is anything wrong with it. Especially if you consider that the most vissual of things that make up gender identity to other people are just culturally assigned norms.

[Guest Elliot]

It seems as though we are just saying our piece of how we 'function' in the world and what it means to be... us. Hm? Well, I suppose I'll just hop on in. I'm still a bit new to all of this vocabulary and androgyne stuff. To me, being androgyne doesn't mean I feel as though I am both genders, at all. I feel as though I am genderless when I dress in my male clothing, canceling out of the female within me, if you will. But now, when you talk about looking as though you are both genders, I feel like I fall into that - but that's not really what all my energy is focused on. I feel lost about it most of the time, and I'm too lazy and scared to think it through. I haven't really told my parents - but there's nothing really to tell them because I've been doing this almost my entire life, surely they should have something figured out... And a quick question - to those who HAVE told their parents about this androgyne thing, how were their reactions?

I don't really think I have days where I'd like to be more feminine than masculine. If anything, I'd rather be seen in public and hear "Good morning, sir." - rather than hear snickers like, "Is that a boy or a girl?" The latter has occured many times. It kind of disturbs me, in an odd way - offends me even. Anyone relate?

I haven't had the guts, or the chance, to do this out in public, or even just in the presence of my parents/family - but sometimes when I'm alone I dress up in my dad's nice jacket. Although I do wear ties and dress shirts around the house. My parents don't question that anymore, or they just keep it to themselves. I wear guy casual clothes around the house (shorts, t shirt, guy shoes) - but it bores me really. I get tired of it and I would rather wear 'classy yet casual' clothing all the time. I don't know what anyone would think if I showed myself with my hair slicked back (which I would REALLY like to do). But I'm absolutely terrified.

Oh, one more thing - I'd have to totally agree with Nick. If I ever would take T, it wouldn't be to grow a beard or moustache, it would be to have some nice, trimmed, sexy sideburns.

[Guest NickSister]

I have not told my parents anything, though I am now 30, so it does not matter as much. Mum knows I am transgendered in some way, we just have not talked about it. I felt the need to make a solid effort to really figure things out before I went out and told people - I'm still in the process somewhat.

I think I relate. It is better to be accepted and treated as a normal person than an object that people laugh at. Personally I still get a thrill when someone mistakes me for a woman on the phone or thinks I am a woman from behind because I wear pigtails. For some reason it feels good. Maybe it is because I reject being a man - for me it is better to be mistaken for a woman than a man in a mans body. Maybe it is simply a kind of recognition that I am not a man. Maybe it is the same for you Elliot? People naturally treat you as if you are a girl. It makes sense to me that it is nicer to be called something other than a girl and anything is better than "what the heck are they".

I understand the fear. I think this is something we all have in common. But I think it is better to have people love you as you are and not some imagined image of you. You have a need to be you, and these things tend to get more so as you get older. But you need to weigh that against keeping safe and avoiding discrimination. It sounds to me like you need a safe outlet to explore this aspect of yourself.

I would like to tell you to talk to your parents about it, but only you can judge whether this is a good idea at this time. It might be you need to wait till you old enough to move out to give yourself an escape. But if things are unbearable as they are then something needs to happen. My suggestion then, before you talk to anyone else, is talk to a councillor/therapist with experience with these issues (just watch out for lemons!). You probably have things to sort out about yourself before you can tell others. At least that way you have a person on your side.

You could also PM someone like MaryEllen from this site - she has a wiser more experienced head than mine. I think she will have some good advise for you.

[Guest NickSister]

Actually, I do think gender is largely psychological. But thats not saying that its a lifestyle. The mind is hardwired, its not some semi-gass floaty thing. Whether its from hormones during developement or imprinting and psychological development during early childhood, your gender identification is still valid, even if you discover it late. Psychology is no less real to you, certainly no less real than the poorly defined set of characters that make up gender is. It is who you are, and there should be no reason for anyone to feel there is anything wrong with it. Especially if you consider that the most vissual of things that make up gender identity to other people are just culturally assigned norms.

I see where you are comming from now - I miss-read some of your post and came up with a whole heap of assumptions. I get so hung up on the whole psychological 'problem' thing it's starting to become a lense. Maybe I do have some hang up's against thinking of my gender as something I have might have aquired.

I guess, as you said, gender identity is part of our psychology -be it a reflection of physiological differences in the brain (which makes a lot of sense to me), or psychological development, or even a combination. Either way it is still a very real and valid.

Thanks for your post. I think I had fallen into a bad groove.

[Guest Kaimialana]

I see where you are comming from now - I miss-read some of your post and came up with a whole heap of assumptions. I get so hung up on the whole psychological 'problem' thing it's starting to become a lense. Maybe I do have some hang up's against thinking of my gender as something I have might have aquired.

I guess, as you said, gender identity is part of our psychology -be it a reflection of physiological differences in the brain (which makes a lot of sense to me), or psychological development, or even a combination. Either way it is still a very real and valid.

Thanks for your post. I think I had fallen into a bad groove.

I have seen first hand how people's persception of what we are as being a "psychological problem". What they really mean is that they think its "all in our head" and thus invalid, as well as a problem that should be psychoanalyzed away. It is neither invalid, nor is it a problem. And the nature of it being psychological ("all in our heads") doesn't make it any less real or important to us. Anyone who has wittnessed psychosomatic effects can attest to that. And no problem. I'm just happy that there is some discussion here.

Elliot, I think one of the most valuble aspects of our gender identity is the ability to hide aspects of it for extended periods. Its also one of the reasons that many people call us "crossdressers" or "pervert" or "fetishists". From personal experience, I have found its not good to repress your identity for too long, but if you are truly worried about the situation with your parents and you expect the worst, the best advice I can give is to keep those parts of yourself hidden until you are to the point where you are no longer under constant watch from your parents, such as going to college, or moving out and supporting yourself. I can understand how if your parents reacted truly bad to the news, it could put yourself in danger. On the other hand, if you think your parents will have a better reaction, try probing some answers about their feelings on transgenders.

Personally, I have not told my parents. If it came up in discussion, I would not lie, but I won't forward the information either. I would rather they don't become aware of it if they are to until I am in a situation where I am fully independent.

[Guest Rev. Michal]

I have female clothing, I have male clothing, I enjoy both. Being androgyne was one of the major reasons I moved to the rainy city, I can have my hair the way I want it, wear the clothes I feel comfortable in, and express myself the way I wish. Another reason is to be with my BF who constantly amazes me with how loving, supporting, and accepting he is of me. Being taken for a punk or lesbian because of my appearance doesn't much bother me, it's worth it to get sirred now and then, to have the only reason that people give me a second glance is that I'm holding a man's hand as I walk down the street. I like to pass sometimes, but sometimes friends will call me "girl", which is a mild annoyance, but not enough that I more than toy with the notion of correcting them. They're at least half right, anyway. I prefer being called "sie", but I don't complain if people stick to biology. I have enough physically androgynous traits that if I bind and keep my hair short and watch my voice, I pass; one transwoman actually asked if I was on a low dose of T, which was flattering, although I don't think I'll ever do hormones since I plan on spawning someday. Surgery, mebbe some breast reduction after I've spawned. I have a very womanly figure, and I'm content with that. SRS doesn't seem like an option to me either, I'd be in the same boat with different bits and pieces. If I have to pick, I'd prefer to have a rather nice female body than a less functional male body. I do plan on changing my real name to Michal, however, since while it is pronounced exactly the same as the male name, it's actually a female name, Biblical in origin.

I've stopped repressing my behaviors, my body language is a mixture of male and female, as are my behaviors and tastes in things.

Edited July 27, 2007 by Rev. Michal

[Guest Rev. Michal]

Also; I'm pretty sure my parents won't accept me. They probably won't be cool with my being bisexual, much less androgyne. I cried for hours and nearly slit my throat when I figured out they wouldn't accept me, but if I come out and say that I'm androgyne I'll lose them. It still hurts that I know they don't really love me if they don't accept me, but I'm coming to terms with that. If they don't accept me they don't love me. If they don't love me they didn't want a child in the first place, they didn't want a PERSON, they wanted a THING, an object. A little machine to act just like mommy and pump out straight A's.

Bugger that. :/

[Guest NickSister]

Hi Rev. Michal.

Parents are funny animals. You never know until you tell them just how they will react. Even if you get a strong reaction, most will come round eventually. What choice do they have after all? You are still their child, they can't escape that no matter how much they try.

I feel that your sexuality is none of your parents business. Who you shack up with has nothing to do with them so there is no real reason to tell them. In regard to your gender I think you need to give them the choice.

As a new parent I can tell you that it would be almost impossible to view your child as thing. You have so much invested in that child that off course you want them to do well. Try not to be too hard on them - In a way I think a parent sees their children as an extension of themselves. They created you . The natural reaction is to feel like everything must have come from them.They often feel responsible for how you live your life and if you are something they are unfamiliar with or have hang-ups about then it can be difficult to accept. It is also scary thinking that after all that effort nurturing your child they will grow up to be their own people out of your control, that their decisions are not yours.

Tell them you love them, that for you to be happy you have to be what you are, educate them, and don't feel angry when they struggle with it, don't despair. They will come round.

[Guest Huff]

Very interesting comments... all of them. I can definitely relate. I was born physically female and have hated everything about it - except maybe that people are more willing to help you out if you're a girl than a guy... something about not being as threatening, I guess. Most of my life, I've tried to be just "not female" - short hair, guy's clothing. In the last couple of days, I've been trying out specifically 'male' things - like a boy's style hair cut, shaving the peach fuzz off my face, binding, and starting to call myself Mel or MK instead of Melissa. I definitely like the way the binding looks, but its a bit hard to breath in - not very practical for bike riding or running! I am certain that I don't want to be feminine. I'm not so certain that I actually want to be a man... I wouldn't mind being a boy, but I don't think I'll be able to manage that when I'm 50 or 60... I don't know. I guess when I look at men (35+), I don't see ME, and there are some gay women that I wouldn't mind looking like. As for hormones... I'm a little wary about the long-term health effects of them, although it would be nice to not have to work so darn hard to be lean and muscular and to actually bulk up a bit. As for surgery... off with the chest! (or at least make it LOTS smaller). I'm not as convinced about the bottom half.

I'm just glad to know that there are other people out there like me. I live in an area where there are some GLBTQ people, but it's really hard to find them. We generally do a great job of blending in and NOT drawing attention.

[Guest Rev. Michal]

Hi Rev. Michal.

Parents are funny animals. You never know until you tell them just how they will react. Even if you get a strong reaction, most will come round eventually. What choice do they have after all? You are still their child, they can't escape that no matter how much they try.

I feel that your sexuality is none of your parents business. Who you shack up with has nothing to do with them so there is no real reason to tell them. In regard to your gender I think you need to give them the choice.

As a new parent I can tell you that it would be almost impossible to view your child as thing. You have so much invested in that child that off course you want them to do well. Try not to be too hard on them - In a way I think a parent sees their children as an extension of themselves. They created you . The natural reaction is to feel like everything must have come from them.They often feel responsible for how you live your life and if you are something they are unfamiliar with or have hang-ups about then it can be difficult to accept. It is also scary thinking that after all that effort nurturing your child they will grow up to be their own people out of your control, that their decisions are not yours.

Tell them you love them, that for you to be happy you have to be what you are, educate them, and don't feel angry when they struggle with it, don't despair. They will come round.

I'm going to tell them soon, I've decided these past few weeks. As soon as I get my paycheck and start a new cellphone account. Mom already knows that I'm some sort of transgender, she's seen me binding and passing. She's told me bluntly that I should 'soften my appearance'. She screamed at me for half an hour when I told her I wanted to cut my hair (not like it's MY HAIR, or anything). When I told her how I'd nearly been hit by a car driven by someone yelling homophobic things out their window she just said 'well you do have that appearance'. She didn't even ask if I was alright. What do you do when your child is frightened? You comfort them, you don't just brush it aside when someone tried to kill what you put so much effort into creating. When I tell her, I'll lose her. I'm certain of it.

My father on the other hand, I'm not sure about. I don't know him well enough that I can say for sure what his reaction will be, so there's still some hope there, but he's strongly religious, and has a habit of using religion to back up his prejudices and things he's not comfortable with, although I'm pretty sure I can pwn him on any front in that department, since the Bible doesn't mention one word for or against the transgendered.

So, I'll find out soon enough, either way.

[Guest Kaimialana]

I'm going to tell them soon, I've decided these past few weeks. As soon as I get my paycheck and start a new cellphone account. Mom already knows that I'm some sort of transgender, she's seen me binding and passing. She's told me bluntly that I should 'soften my appearance'. She screamed at me for half an hour when I told her I wanted to cut my hair (not like it's MY HAIR, or anything). When I told her how I'd nearly been hit by a car driven by someone yelling homophobic things out their window she just said 'well you do have that appearance'. She didn't even ask if I was alright. What do you do when your child is frightened? You comfort them, you don't just brush it aside when someone tried to kill what you put so much effort into creating. When I tell her, I'll lose her. I'm certain of it.

My father on the other hand, I'm not sure about. I don't know him well enough that I can say for sure what his reaction will be, so there's still some hope there, but he's strongly religious, and has a habit of using religion to back up his prejudices and things he's not comfortable with, although I'm pretty sure I can pwn him on any front in that department, since the Bible doesn't mention one word for or against the transgendered.

So, I'll find out soon enough, either way.

And either way, there still many people who love you so much, my dear sibling. We will be there for you.

[Guest Rev. Michal]

Thanks Kai, I know you are.

[Guest Ryles_D]

This doesn't really help, but I've heard that androgyne is identity. Like, you can look however but you don't identify as male or female. Actively seeking to portray this in your physical appearance is neutrois.

I haven't told anyone except for this one girl online that I was because she keeps saying "Well, you don't get it because you're a boy!" (last time she said it during my period. I was sorely tempted to make a sarcastic comment about that- didn't want to go into it)

I'm not sure how my parents would feel, and I haven't gone to many lengths to have the appearence. Most of my shirts aren't babydoll, but all but one pair of pants are clearly girls'. I've been trying to get mom to let me get a binder, but I don't think she will. Keeps making me try other things like sports bras that don't do anything. >_<

I think I don't mind being girly, because I like pretty things, I just don't like being called a girl and people assuming things because of it. I'm pretty sure if I were a boy it'd be the opposite, fighting to get me to stop wearing dresses. XD

Mom I'm 80% certain wouldn't be happy, and I don't want to think about her reaction. I fear clothes shopping with her now because it'd take too much fighting for me to get pants that aren't form-fitting, and I've only actually succeeded this weekend while shopping with dad and when it came to pajama pants. And dad, well, dunno. He's the one who makes most of the gay jokes and such (mom's definitely homophobic, just quiet about it)- but if I just made it out as a "I'm more comfortable wearing..." I think he'd be ok with it.

Dunno, going to college next year and I want to get myself to androgynous appearance by then. I half-plan to cut my hair short next summer/fall. Long enough to wear in a ponytail, but still short. And maybe boy-ish if I can. Just to see what it looks like, and to see how long it grows during college/grad school (yay highschool seniors)

[Guest Lexy]

I'm not sure how androgynous I am, but i definitely cross dress in privacy. I have a very skinny body, which makes me easily look girly and look good in many tight fitting girl clothes. I have longish "emo" hair down to my collar in the back and down past my chin in the front.

In public I go with the punk look because I am very involved in the scene with music, shows, and such. I almost always wear tight fitting girl sinny jeans with a tight fitting girl or guy band shirt. As the weather is changing i got a black girl zip up hoody which is very feminine. I never wear make up normally and I am identified as male in public and around friends

Everyonce in a while i have a friend who's a girl wanna experiment with making me girly and want to put make up on my face or paint my nails. Sometimes they give me a whole outfit to wear and straighten my hair and put a hairband in it to make me easily passable in real life. Sometimes we will take pictures and I often get comments about how cute i look and that i look really good in their clothes. Its fun but they have no idea how much i actually enjoy it, and i definitely can't tell them. I try to make them think it is their idea to dress me or if i drink a little i convince them they're drunk and sometimes put their clothes on.

I have a lot of fun with stuff, but still definitely identify as a hetero male. I often feel the only reason i dress in girl clothes is because i admire the tight, cute, and sexyness girls get while wearing it. Basically i feel obsessed with the cute female look, but could never see myself doing things with a guy.

For now I just focus on having fun and everyonce in a while go out in public looking a little more feminine than normal with friends by myside. We could some crazy looks but i think its fun. Its also beneficial becuase i still get girls that think i'm attractive in the way i look, which eliminates all the girls that would not accept it

Again i just go for having fun

[Guest Lynnx]

Well i was reading through these stories and i got to pondering what i like about be androgonous.... intergender i call it. And i think that what i like is making people wonder, "what the .......!"

I mean we are SOOOOOO invisible! And i want to be visible. So every time i get a "sir, oh i'm sorry, maam" i chuckle. And when i go to a party and some wise cracker says "oh, you look like girl this time", i just smile this "woundn't you like to know" smile. And when a hear someone in the next room discussing eunichs, i know why.

they don't really understand, but confuzing them is the best i can hope for. I even said a work that i'm trangendered, but that still confuzes them.

now if i could get a sex change (read Kaimialana), i would. i've spent have my life in the body of one sex, and i'm game for new experiences. But i would still be intergender. i'd still get "maam, oh i'm sorry, sir"

[Guest Link48010]

How does one live openly as and androgyne, it's how you identify yourself, it's not like you go up to everyone you shake hands with and say, "By the way I'm androgynous". IMO this is making a big deal out of nothing, then again, this could be my anti-depressants talking.

[Guest mia 1]

The view from an one who has been around. Enjoy, wonder more, analyze less. Feel both sides of your lucky persona,kick back and let the world wonder.

Let your emotions control your look and present yourself the way you want to at the moment.

It seems that most of you have already done that. Mia

[Guest Kelly Ann]

xxOOOOO...really well said Mia* Kelly Ann

[Guest Gallium 67]

I get a real kick out of it when people say, "Is that a boy or a girl?". To me, that's one of the best feelings around. It might be said as a sneering comment or joke, but it doesn't bother me one bit. I actually like it. I prefer to be refered to as a 'sir' though, or even 'pretty boy' than a 'lesbian'. Hell, I can settle for 'gay guy'. As long as I'm a guy. But I like looking like a fem guy. I don't want to look completely like some muscular male with the rough beard etc etc or the opposite as a skirt wearing booty call (lol). It's a blending of both fem and male qualities to me and I find I get a lot of enjoyment out of it as well as comfort.

I'll dress like a guy. I'll wear the suit and tie and bind my breasts down but I'll still wear some very light makeup (normally just foundation and eyeliner/eyeshadow) and do crazy things with my hair. Or if I go casual I'll wear guy jeans with a well-fitted guy's shirt with some Vans. I just have fun with it. I grew up as a tomboy. Only thing that really gives me away is my voice and probably my very fem face. I can normally hide the hips with a jacket or hoodie since my hips aren't huge (but they're still there to my dismay). Not saying I want a deep manly voice, but a more boyish voice is something I can only dream of. I'm practicing some voice exercises I found on the web but I don't know if they're working.

There's something beautiful to me about being a blending of both genders at once, if it's at all possible. Of being one of those that exists on that very fine line between male and female. But that's probably just me accepting who I am for who I am and wallowing in my masculine vainness. (lol!)

As for mentally, I am a male trapped in a female's body, but there does exist a part of me psychologically that's female. I tend to take on feminine qualities at random times. But then there are times when the chaos of the conflicting genders in my head becomes nonexistent and if I didn't have boobs, I wouldn't be able to tell if I were truely male or female. It's hard to describe actually, but hey, this body isn't that bad. It just needs some tweaking is the way I see it before it will fit me like a glove.

Sexually, I'm not attracted to either male or female. Once in a while though I can't help but stop and admire a passing guy or girl though. But only in passing. Heh.

Ultimately I think it's more of a state of mind/sexual orientation (or lack of) than it is physical. It's hard to express outwardly so I just dress how I want. Whatever makes me feel most comfortable. And for me that's dressing like a guy.

[Guest androgynous]

Androgyne to me is a gender identification. It is the way I identify. If you want to get into the whole "mind-sex" metaphore (which I don't personally like, it causes people to confuse gender and sex even more) its like taking male and female identities, and running them into each other at 500 mph, with the aftermess being a grey goopy mess of inseperability. I don't live openly, at least, not to my family, but I plan on just letting it out to everyone else from now on. I consider androgyny (in the gender identification sense) to be transgender identity. The way I dress and cause my appearance to be is a reflection of the state of my mind. I find it helpful that I already have some physical traits that helps me look that way. Its not a lifestyle, its who I am.

I find myself angry at the moment. I have just been told about the whole HBS scandal, and the prejudice of these people bothers me to no end. But what also bothers me is the way that androgyne is still seen as a physical think, and not a gender identity, and even here on these forums. I saw in the other thread that people still think of gender as such a black/white thing. And, if you are transgender, you are either a transexual (HBS) or a transgenderist (apparently someone who takes hormones and changes their appearance to gain sexual pleasure). Or you are not transgender and just a crossdresser. I am transgender, and I am not a transexual, or a transgenderist. I don't want to change my sex (not that you can, not with modern technology; all SRS is, is a cosmetic thing) nor do I derive sexual pleasure from who I am. Not even a truly complete sexchange, cromosomes and everything, would make me feel right. I'd be stuck in the same situation I am already. And I have hard enough trouble convincing people that sex=/=gender identity=/= sexual orientation, to have to convince them in addition that transgender does not have to equal transgenderist or transexual!

That being said, I do try to cultivate an androgynous appearance. I keep my eyebrows a certain way, my hair a certain way, my clothing a mixture from either gender. Sometimes I feel more female, so I put on a little bit of makup and wear a skirt. Sometimes I feel more male, so I tie up my hair and wear guys pants. And my behavior matches whatever I am feeling at the time, male or female. But don't get me wrong, there is no male or female "side" of myself. I put walls up to try the whole "bi-gendered" thing once upon a time, but it was just not right, I was trying to separate that mushed gray goop, an impossibility. in adition, I don't go maxiumum in either direction, gender wise. I don't like a manly appearance, nor a womanly one. I would never wear red nail polish for the same reason I wouldn't want to grow a beard. Either one is too far in either direction. I would wear earings, however, because that does not have to be associated with any gender.

*sigh* I'll shut up now, I said my piece.

Edit: Okay, let me clarify when I use the term cosmetic, I use it not in a nonchalant sense. A surgery can be cosmetic but still necessary for someones well being.

I think we are on the same page together, I just realized my identity but I too feel that I don't want to fully tilt to two extremes, many fems or males look neutral in appearance also, So I only want to accentuate it with a bit of jewelry, skin softening, hair removal, and also polished nails. I wouldn't think I could ever wear lipstick or a dress because that would mask my muscularity way to much, So I think I want the neutral look so much because of what I feel I am. I don't think I can express it otherwise. Food for thought?

[Guest ericc]

How many people here live openly as an Androgyne? How do you do it? Very Successful? What does appearing Androgyne mean to you?

I can't say I am out of the closet. I don't exactly hide it but I do curb my desires to be what I feel inside. So for me it used to be all about the accessories. I dress similar to most males but include make-up, nailpolish, womens shoes.. This enables me to be 'hidden' but still combat some of my dysphoria.

I think the difficult bit would be to be recognisably androgyne (assuming that is what you want). I find that it is easy to be misread as gay, drag queen, or transsexual. We don't exist for the general public so we can't be recognised as something people have never heard of. Most people will still try to classify you as male or female when really you don't fit in either camp or fit in both at the same time. At best I guess you would get "I don't know, I think they are a girl".

I find it difficult to imagine being someone that achieved a truly androgynous look, or what that might be - except maybe that I would look like that Hanson boy. Maybe no true "Androgyne" presentation exists. But maybe this does not matter. Perhaps it is more about what feels right for you and not what others perceive you as.

Yeah, I just out from the Closet and my parents took the news well. I'm going to see my new Theropist this week. I really want to grow my hair long but trim the front short, clear nailpolish, And I really want to wear turquoise Nylon and silk clothing all the time and maybe dye my hair blonde and had some mascara. I'm fearing that I'm loosing my Androgynous cuteness persay and I don't want to look like a So Called Man! I want to look like me. I've always kind of hated looking at myself in the mirror because I knew the image in the mirror was not who I felt was me, now I understand why I feel this way.

Don't worry what others think, do what you feel is best for you and everything should be okay. HANG IN THERE!