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Divine Providence


Guest lisa49

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In over the last 200 years leaders of various political beliefs have worked to have people follow their plans for a perfect society. Marx, Hitler, Thomas Jefferson, and many other's, some with workable ideas and some with huge faults but all with the belief that they had the best one way of making the world a better place. It is more of a philosophic question, "Is there only one best way?"

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  • 3 weeks later...

From a philosophical man called Anton Lavey; "All religions of a spiritual nature are inventions of man. He has created an entire system of gods with nothing more than his carnal brain. Just because man has an ego and cannot accept it he must externalize in into some greater spiritual device which he calls "God". God can do all the things man is forbidden to do, kill people, perform 'miracles' to gratify his will, control without any apparent responsibility ect...If someone needs a god, then they are worshiping an entity that human being created, therefore he is worshiping by proxy the man that invented the god. Is it not more sensible to worship a god that you yourself have created, that serves your emotional needs? To some people this would be a horror indeed, because the mind is no longer split in the spiritual and carnal, but merged as one, the big horror being that there only ever was the carnal mind to begin with."

I don't believe in any religion. I don't try and set out to upset people who do either, BUT I do believe this man was simply trying to explain how a society can exist without the spiritual, how people would have no excuses like "I did it in the name of God" after killing a doctor who performed an abortion ect. All they would simply be able to say is; "I'm a cold blooded killer". Or the doctor lives, because there is no "God" to kill in the name of.

I highly recommend a book by Richard Dawkins, entitled "The God Delusion" its very long, but basically answers your post perfectly in all aspects of society, all around the world.

Xo

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Guest lisa49

Although Richard Dawkins, is a good writer and a devout Atheist he leaves out a good explanation of the role spiritualism in humans. Some of the science he quotes seems to be a product of an enthusiastic scientist rather than an objective study. There is no doubt there is something more than a straight objective view even if all you can do is say it has not been discovered yet.

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Kia Ora,

In my humble opinion…

:rolleyes: It is an ‘illusion’ and a ‘reality’ for man to 'think' that they can create a perfect society..

Reality stems from the mind-and can not exist without the functioning of one mind ! …

One man’s perfection is another man’s imperfection!” In the real world perfect societies already exist and have done so from the beginning-A perfect society is any society that suits an ‘optimistic’ mind…Just as an imperfect society stems from a ‘pessimistic’ mind…

Order and chaos walk hand in hand and have always done so - the optimist can blend the benefits of both…A pessimist will continue to separate the two..

The perfect society already exists and to try and change it for the better is just an illusion!

Well that’s my humble opinion!

Metta Jendar :)

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Guest lisa49
Reality stems from the mind-and can not exist without the functioning of one mind !

That is only personal reality. This universe was here before earth and everyone on it and will be here after earth and everyone on it. That and all the dimensions or other things we are not aware of make a reality that we do not directly feel. Now that we have these two realities, one within and one without we need to look at everything and how it reacts with each other and then how we react with it.

The illusion is that we are the god and nothing exists without us.

Order is a human illusion as they try to make sense of the universe. But it does give us tools to live and predict the future.

The perfect society already exists and to try and change it for the better is just an illusion!

Nothing is absolute or perfect since that is an illusion and just not recognizing the chaos.

Society is always changing and it is only the personal view that make a judgment. Society is a method to cooperate, to pool skills so people can experience more than their personal limits. It also offers a system to procreate and continue the human race.

Why only offer a "humble opinion" when you can offer your full opinion. All opinions are subjective, the facts offer another piece to the puzzle.

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Guest lisa49
All religions of a spiritual nature are inventions of man

We are born with the code of DNA. It assembles the genes and all the cells. Each person is a little different but has some of the same codes as do animals but less so. These formations that genes make create the chemicals that regulate the brain. Some of these chemical reactions make us feel things like déjà vu and also so spirituality. How we handle these thoughts in the brain is a product of experience and education. Not everyone has the same intensity or number of these occurrences due to their physical makeup.

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Kia Ora,

Quote..."Society is always changing and it is only the 'personal' view that make a judgment!"

I fear you have missed my point!

“One man’s perfection is another man’s imperfection!” In the real world perfect societies already exist and have done so from the beginning-A perfect society is any society that suits an ‘optimistic’ mind…Just as an imperfect society stems from a ‘pessimistic’ mind!”

Both the optimist and the pessimist live in the same society…is their society perfect or imperfect? That would all depend on which side of the fence one sits....

Umm 'personal reality' ...How can things exist when ones mind is not capable of thought?….The universe and all meaning ends for somebody –when death occurs[or do you ‘know’ something I don’t know-something of a spiritual ‘after life’ nature perhaps?]…It only exist for us because we are still capable of thought!

When one is in a deep sleep does the universe still exist? And what if one

dies in their sleep is the universe still a reality for them?

A person with a dualistic nature would perceive two realities, one personal- how they interpret things and the other, what they might call the impersonal 'what is'-which are in fact one of the same-they cannot be separated…and as I’ve mentioned before stems from the mind…Nothing can exist outside one’s mind…

You are at this moment using your ‘mind’ to interpret what is written and in doing so are disconnected from your so called ‘other’ reality-‘now’ you are thinking about this ‘other’ reality - is it truly a ‘separate’ reality?…There can be only one ‘reality’ and that dies when the individual dies!

And according to Buddhist understanding, if rebirth occurs a new reality will be born with the individual…

Again this is my humble opinion!

:rolleyes: But if you can prove that life exist outside ones mind and that ones mind is irrelevant when it comes to what is percieved as the universe …I would be most interested…

Happy mindfulness and interesting thoughts

Metta Jendar :)

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Guest lisa49
universe still a reality for them

For them = personal reality. People die every day there is still a universe. The universe was here before you and will be here after you. It is you that die not the universe. You thoughts and body and electric of your being are neutralized. Anyone one can and does have emotions or choose to be neutral about life's events. We all have the ability to look and feel optimistic and pessimistic at any time. The has noting to do with organized society. A person can be optimistic about falling off a cliff and say so far so good till they hit the ground and the stop living. Did that person contribute to the best interests of the group as a whole which we call society? If they contributed nothing except to have other people clean up their mess then how can that be considered a perfect society it takes everyone to be perfect not the feelings of one. One does not make a society. I think it rather selfish to claim it is only an individual that counts as society.

A society is a population of humans characterized by patterns of relationships between individuals that may share a distinctive culture and institutions. More broadly, a society is an economic, social and industrial infrastructure in which a varied multitude of people or peoples are a part
A part does not determine the whole. So one perfect individual does not define the whole hence none are perfect.
[Nothing can exist outside one’s mind/quote]

Well you stand there and I will slug you with a bat and tell me it is all in your mind if you are still alive.

Did something happen today that you are not aware of? It seems that you are unwilling to concede that you are not the center of the universe. Everyone can not be the same center as by definition there is only possible to be one center.

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Guest Alicia
From a philosophical man called Anton Lavey; "All religions of a spiritual nature are inventions of man. He has created an entire system of gods with nothing more than his carnal brain. Just because man has an ego and cannot accept it he must externalize in into some greater spiritual device which he calls "God". God can do all the things man is forbidden to do, kill people, perform 'miracles' to gratify his will, control without any apparent responsibility ect...If someone needs a god, then they are worshiping an entity that human being created, therefore he is worshiping by proxy the man that invented the god. Is it not more sensible to worship a god that you yourself have created, that serves your emotional needs? To some people this would be a horror indeed, because the mind is no longer split in the spiritual and carnal, but merged as one, the big horror being that there only ever was the carnal mind to begin with."

I recognise that . . . Are you familiar with the rest of Satanic Bible or just that one section?

We are born with the code of DNA. It assembles the genes and all the cells. Each person is a little different but has some of the same codes as do animals but less so. These formations that genes make create the chemicals that regulate the brain. Some of these chemical reactions make us feel things like déjà vu and also so spirituality. How we handle these thoughts in the brain is a product of experience and education. Not everyone has the same intensity or number of these occurrences due to their physical makeup.

Genetics has a limited role on beliefs though. Over all external effects have a larger impact than our DNA.

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Kia Ora,

Before I start I would like to thank you for sharing your knowledge with me…As long as I live I'll continue to embrace life!

Quote: For them = personal reality. People die every day there is still a universe!

But not for the dead person!…

:rolleyes: So you hit me with a bat…will I feel pain? The answer is yes –Provided I’m still ‘conscious’ - how do I perceive this pain and you standing there with the bat?…Oh wait a minute through my ‘mind’…for without the mind there cannot be pain, the bat and you standing there nor any ‘philosophical thought’ in the first place…

I know it’s hard for you to comprehend but without an ‘active’ mind nothing exists- how can it… If you find disagreement, please provide irrefutable proof to contradict my ‘humble opinion-that is, you will need to ‘past to the other side’ check out the scene and then come back to prove me wrong…Good luck!

It is only a belief that stems from ‘your’ mind that allows you to make the presumption that the universe will still exist after one is dead-Will the universe still really be there when one is dead? For those who ‘are’ still living with an active ‘mind’ yes what they ‘perceive as the universe will still be there…But for the dead person??? Your ‘guess’ is as good as ‘mine/mind’[excuse the pun]!…

Lisa, I tell no lie - what have I got to gain by lying…“Life - the universe...all in the mind! And always has been…You like billions of other beings are the centre of their mind's universe and this universe is shared by all minds...

Beauty like perfection is in the ‘eye’[mind] of the beholder!

I might see rose bushes- beautiful things to behold…and you might see a thorny harmful growth of vegetation with flowers on it…It all depend on how the individual ‘perceives life [through their active mind]…

Hey, you don’t really have to ‘past to the other side!’ I was only joking… :D

When I say my ‘humble’ opinion I mean just that, having not studied philosophy nor psychology on any academic level, what I feel and say just comes from the university of life experience…

Happy mindfulness

Metta Jendar :)

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Guest lisa49
I know it’s hard for you to comprehend but without an ‘active’ mind nothing exists- how can it

The mind is getting input from the senses which are faulty. You can see and believe illusions. You watch a movie and think it is people running as it is only stills that the mind knits together as if it was action. The human mind has many flaws. It is only through empirical evidence (dependent on evidence or consequences) that it can recognize the errors. A good book that explains objectivity is "Objectivity" by Lorraine Daston.

It is only a belief that stems from ‘your’ mind that allows you to make the presumption that the universe will still exist after one is dead-

No it is based on empirical evidence as many people have died in history and the pool of knowledge has inspected and tested the evidence. In all cases the universe is still here. It seems that you deny all the knowledge that humans have assembled and passed on to the whole of humanity.

When I say my ‘humble’ opinion I mean just that, having not studied philosophy nor psychology on any academic level,

Then you would declare that only you have the answers to all the worlds questions and all the other great minds of history are wrong. As you will not accept empirical evidence, but base all your decisions on the flaws of your own mind. Then you will stumble through life without the benefit of all that has been learned and proved effective, a power of knowledge that opens up the world to help you achieve your fullest potential.

All I can do is lead a horse to water, its life and contributions are based on what it does.

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Kia Ora Lisa,

I now clearly see your gods whom you love, worship and praise, each and everyday…And just like those god centrics who worship a supernatural being [the ones whom you find absurd], Your almighty gods also brings you comfort-

The great academic ‘minds’ in history are your gods - You cling to their every word-never allowing ‘you’ to enter the equation always the thoughts of others…I guess we all must have something or someone to ‘believe’ in…

Without mind there is nothing! And your argument so far just continues to prove this point! You can only argue your point by using your mind…however at times I do wonder…

All that one thinks, says and does stems from the mind-and yet you still insist on using your mind to argue against this logic! You only see your ‘truth’, one that you have learnt from books…And if one does not agree with you then that person must be wrong because they have not studied the work of the great academics that you so worship…

Perhaps if you were to use your own mind[meditation] and not continue to borrow thoughts and words from those you worship, you would grasp reality as it is…and not the illusionary realities that you have learnt about in a book…

I see this debate Lisa, as my ‘karma’ and so I must embrace and reinforce what lessons I have learnt from my past and you are the karmic energy sent to me for this to be done…The lessons could be ‘patience’ ‘tolerance’ ‘acceptance’ ‘compassion’ ‘empathy’ perhaps a combination of the lot…

I hope you also take away something ‘positive’ from this philosophical debate or which you so enjoy!

Many choose to live in a world where material gain is their only form of happiness where the spoils of greed and selfishness are yet to be removed from their conscious thought – Sadly Lisa, you have yet to realise ‘Nothing’ is ‘permanent’…all the material wealth you cling to will in time be gone…

Finally again I admit defeat-you are right-you win- your understanding of what is right is right there can be no other truth but ‘your’ truth…Victory is your…I hope the spoils of victory will linger long in your mind and heart…

You have won fair and square I can not compete with your logic..so I must take with me what I have learnt...

Thank you for allowing me to see the world through your eyes…

Happy mindfulness [by filling your mind with your ‘own’ thoughts can be uncomfortable at times but well worth it]

Please feel 'free' to have the last word...You truly deserve it!

Metta Jendar :)

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I believe that we as an imperfect people cannot become perfect unless we rely on someone who is perfect. That someone is God. No offense to the atheists, but it is their egos that cause them to believe they are without a Creator. So in order to achieve this perfection we must follow the rules and guidelines which our God has created for us. They are for our protection. Hitler, Marx, etc had no connection to religion at all and everything was from their own minds and thus was deeply flawed. We do not have the infinite wisdom of our Creator, and it is completely foolish to think we do. Religion has gotten a little twisted these days especially with the Muslims... Just remember that shedding innocent blood is not a rule, it is forbidden.

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Guest lisa49
I believe that we as an imperfect people cannot become perfect unless we rely on someone who is perfect. That someone is God.

If God is so perfect then why do the people he made have defects. We are in his image? Perfect and absolute are a human ideas not a fact of the universe.

To believe is perfect because you need no proof, it has no defects. It is also only in your mind, as real is what is left after you are dead.

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Guest Alicia
No offense to the atheists, but it is their egos that cause them to believe they are without a Creator.

I may not technically be an atheist, but my train of thought is very similar. The reason I don't believe there is a "god" or higher power etc is that there is no proof. If you can show me proof that one exists, I would believe. As you cannot, I don't believe there is. That also nullifies any later comments made about rules etc a "god" or "creator" made.

Hitler, Marx, etc had no connection to religion at all and everything was from their own minds and thus was deeply flawed.

Sorry, but I have to point out that is in fact wrong.

Adolf Hitler was raised Roman Catholic but after leaving home he stopped attending mass. He did however make numerous comments professing his belief in Jesus Christ. In fact Hitler used Christianity as justification for his antisemitism. He once stated that "as a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice."

We do not have the infinite wisdom of our Creator, and it is completely foolish to think we do.

When did anybody say they had infinite wisdom?

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Our bodies are in an imperfect form. So we're made in His image, but we are not perfect.

No proof? Wow... An ego could be that you require to be shown such direct and explicit proof...

Hitler was raised Catholic, but later left the church. He even claimed that you could be a German or a Christian, but not both. His view of Christianity was flawed, since Jesus was a Jew. He just changed it to get support. He didn't truly believe in it, and the religion didn't drive him.

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Guest lisa49
Our bodies are in an imperfect form. So we're made in His image, but we are not perfect.

No proof? Wow... An ego could be that you require to be shown such direct and explicit proof...

I fail to see rational thought here. If we are imperfect and in God's image then God is imperfect also. How would you know that God has a gender?

Ego has nothing to do with requiring empirical evidence before we can accept truth. It is a rational reasonable request before we are to take an action.

Hitler required people to direct there spiritual beliefs in him as the worlds savor. He believed he was a God and had the perfect way humans should live. Not to mention his search for the holy grail.

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I believe in a thing called "logic."

Logically, unless you can prove a "god" exists, why should I worship one? And wouldn't having us all worship "god" mean he has the biggest ego of us all?

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We are created in God's image, meaning we resemble Him. We are not copies of Him, and we are not perfect in this life. After the resurrection, we will be made perfect. If we were perfect now, it would ruin the purpose of showing which of us are willing to serve God and follow His commandments.

While you make a point about using logic, being atheist requires just as much proof as being Christian, or following any other religion would. And logically, it makes much more sense for a being with supreme power to have created this world and universe, than it randomly by chance appearing as it is.

God, is our Father and Creator, doesn't it make sense that we should honor and respect Him? The idea of us worshiping Him, is that we are acknowledging that He created us, and that we are inferior to His wisdom and guidance. That through His guidance, we can achieve everlasting happiness and success.

The atheist concept has an ego, because you turn to saying that no greater power created you. Thus you claim all the glory to yourselves, and do not acknowledge a greater power. "Logically, unless you can prove a "god" exists, why should I worship one?" that says it all. You aren't willing to give up just a small amount of time to give to person greater than you.

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"Logically, unless you can prove a "god" exists, why should I worship one?" that says it all. You aren't willing to give up just a small amount of time to give to person greater than you.

And yet, to do so would nullify the argument of logic. Interesting.....

just peeking in :)

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Reality stems from the mind-and can not exist without the functioning of one mind ! …

If you don't mind reading 18th century philosophical texts, I highly recommend some of George Berkeley's works. Especially his "Principles of Human Knowledge". He basically argues the same thing... that reality is mental, and that nothing can exist which isn't perceived by the mind. It's a theory known as idealism, and I think it's fascinating stuff. It can't be disproved either! :)

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While you make a point about using logic, being atheist requires just as much proof as being Christian, or following any other religion would. And logically, it makes much more sense for a being with supreme power to have created this world and universe, than it randomly by chance appearing as it is.

I am not just talking about Christians here, I am talking about any religion that involves the belief in a "god."

You aren't willing to give up just a small amount of time to give to person greater than you.

That may be because I don't believe a "god" or higher power exists. If I don't believe in one, why would I worship one?

Let me put my argument in simple terms. Until I see evidence of a "god" or higher power, I will not believe in one.

By evidence I do not mean something like "the bible is evidence" or "the Earth is here, showing God created it."

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And logically, it makes much more sense for a being with supreme power to have created this world and universe, than it randomly by chance appearing as it is.

If you want to use logic in an infinite universe you have an infinite amount of chances win. I will take that in a lottery and win every time. Everything has an infinite chance to happen in this case both.

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  • 6 years later...
  • Admin

That quote was the basis for a midterm paper in one of my college classes nearly half a century ago. It is a brief comment on one whale of a lot of history. Those with a good level of education will see it and acknowledge it for what it is. There is indeed conflict of interest between clergy who are anointed to their levels of leadership, and those who are elected by their fellow men to leadership. It is not an attack on religion, just a pragmatic statement that religion is static and government much more dynamic.

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