The "F" Word and What it means to You

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Hey Jay Jay ... yes "butch" is under the trans umbrella .. although I am not sure that all women who identify as butch are happy about being classified under the trans umbrella. I personally was like"What the??" But as I learned more about the what it means to be gender non-conforming and/or Trans, I adjusted.

I am not find of labels and have never liked being defined by others ... but we need language and as long as we as individuals are not limited with these descriptors by narrow definitions I am open to using them ... So .. "Butch" "Androgyne" Pangender" "Feminist" "Gender Queer" etc. etc. none of these words really captures my experience ... or even comes close, to be honest ... but it might help to give a hint to others of where I am coming from.

It's always good to hear your perspectives Jay Jay ... you add a lot to the forums.

Hugs,

JB

[Guest aleon515]

Hey Jay Jay ... yes "butch" is under the trans umbrella .. although I am not sure that all women who identify as butch are happy about being classified under the trans umbrella. I personally was like"What the??" But as I learned more about the what it means to be gender non-conforming and/or Trans, I adjusted.

I am not find of labels and have never liked being defined by others ... but we need language and as long as we as individuals are not limited with these descriptors by narrow definitions I am open to using them ... So .. "Butch" "Androgyne" Pangender" "Feminist" "Gender Queer" etc. etc. none of these words really captures my experience ... or even comes close, to be honest ... but it might help to give a hint to others of where I am coming from.

It's always good to hear your perspectives Jay Jay ... you add a lot to the forums.

Hugs,

JB

Thanks for your comments Juniper! That's nice.

Have you read "Stone Butch Blues". They suggested it at the transgender center. I can see why this is a very important book in the trans* world. Lee (Feinberg) -- the main character is named Jess-- very certainly is transgender. I have no problem with transgender as applied to myself (not esp. butch).

I actually do find the labels helpful. If i hadn't have found them I wouldn't know what was going on with me. I use all of these somewhat interchangeably. I don't know if they are meant to be interchangeable.

--Jay Jay

[KieranD]

Hey Jay Jay ... yes "butch" is under the trans umbrella .. although I am not sure that all women who identify as butch are happy about being classified under the trans umbrella. I personally was like"What the??" But as I learned more about the what it means to be gender non-conforming and/or Trans, I adjusted.

I am not find of labels and have never liked being defined by others ... but we need language and as long as we as individuals are not limited with these descriptors by narrow definitions I am open to using them ... So .. "Butch" "Androgyne" Pangender" "Feminist" "Gender Queer" etc. etc. none of these words really captures my experience ... or even comes close, to be honest ... but it might help to give a hint to others of where I am coming from.

It's always good to hear your perspectives Jay Jay ... you add a lot to the forums.

Hugs,

JB

Thanks for your comments Juniper! That's nice.

Have you read "Stone Butch Blues". They suggested it at the transgender center. I can see why this is a very important book in the trans* world. Lee (Feinberg) -- the main character is named Jess-- very certainly is transgender. I have no problem with transgender as applied to myself (not esp. butch).

I actually do find the labels helpful. If i hadn't have found them I wouldn't know what was going on with me. I use all of these somewhat interchangeably. I don't know if they are meant to be interchangeable.

--Jay Jay

It's Leslie Feinberg...who also got arrested recently for protesting the arrest of CeCe McDonald. In many ways I didn't relate to Stone Butch Blues. I was never that deeply involved within lesbian communities and the character's transition was way different from my own.

I don't actually think "butch" always falls under the trans umbrella. If a person identifies as butch and determines their butch identity to be a trans one, that's okay but a lot of the time if somebody says that they're trans and butch I take it to mean a butch trans woman, or butch identified AMAB trans person.

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Hi Jay Jay and Keiran,

I have posted a new thread on the subject of Butch lesbians, Trans Men and the trans Umbrella.

"I don't actually think "butch" always falls under the trans umbrella. If a person identifies as butch and determines their butch identity to be a trans one, that's okay but a lot of the time if somebody says that they're trans and butch I take it to mean a butch trans woman, or butch identified AMAB trans person. "

I (think) agree with you Keiran... not sure what AMAB is though! LOL!

Along those lines. It is hard to sort out our history .. the history of Butch Women and Trans Men. Before medical advancements, many Trans Men were probably perceived as Butch lesbians. There was no language or understanding for alternatives... in reality, there were rarely viable choices. The book "The Well of Loneliness" was brought up in a thread recently and the question was raised: "Is the author Trans of Lesbian?? .. is the character Trans or Lesbian?? Where should the book be categorized? " When I read this thread, I thought immediately of the Jazz musician Billy Tipton who is now often identified as Trans but was once commonly identified as a butch lesbian. Billy Tipton lived his life as "Man" and undoubtedly would not have been able to play the trumpet and lead a band in his era if he had lived his life a s woman. Was he Trans or Butch?? The same is true for soldiers who fought in the Civil War .. they could not have fought as women ... they are now commonly classified seen as Trans but how can we be certain when they lived in a pre-feminist world? These historic figures lived at time before the modern feminist movement when it was virtually impossible to live as a lesbian much less as a man.

Anyway .. there is a great modern article on this type of culturally influenced "trans" gender (?) experience .. It is FASCINATING ... I hope that you can find the time to read it:

''No choice'' for Afghan girls brought up as boys

Fri, 30 Mar 2012 18:24 GMT

Source: trustlaw // Maria Caspani

Hugs,

JB

[Guest Juniper Blue]

http://www.trust.org/trustlaw/news/feature-no-choice-for-afghan-girls-brought-up-as-boys

[KieranD]

I dislike how trans men are always grouped with butches.

AMAB is assigned male at birth.

Billy Tipton lived his life completely as male. His wife didn't even know he was AFAB until right before he died. At this time there were masculine women/butch lesbians out there.

I don't really think that article is fascinating so much as it is disgusting. People would rather resolve the conflict by making their children all boys instead of working on fixing the actual problem.

[Guest Juniper Blue]

I dislike how trans men are always grouped with butches.

AMAB is assigned male at birth.

Billy Tipton lived his life completely as male. His wife didn't even know he was AFAB until right before he died. At this time there were masculine women/butch lesbians out there.

I don't really think that article is fascinating so much as it is disgusting. People would rather resolve the conflict by making their children all boys instead of working on fixing the actual problem.

Actually . regarding the article. the Mother who was Feminist would very much like to resolve the conflict in others ways ... her being a Feminist, I am sure is a risky step toward that. I am sure that there are many women and men who are risking their lives to change in their efforts to free women in Afghanistan. There was a very similar article on this in the Times .. I wish I could locate it .. but it was much more comprehensive and gave an example of how society can force girls and women to be closeted and live as boys or men to gain privilege. I guess the movie Yentle ( with Barbara Streisand , is a more direct example of this) but I wanted a modern day, non-fictional example of this phenomenon.

And yes ... the oppression of women or of any group of people is grotesque ... my fascination is probably also grotesque ... but it is like a train wreck that I cannot look away from ... a train wreck that I somehow feel that if I can understand the underpinnings of I can somehow help to stop. ( And a train that I have been on. )

Billy Tipton .. the interpretations of his life are varied and contradictory .. it is said that eh was always "Dorothty"when he went home to his family. I do think that he was probably trans but my point is that at this time in history it would have been nearly impossible for a woman to lead a Jazz band and we can only speculate about people in history.

May main point is that .. like it or not .. the history of Butch and Tran Men may be difficult if not impossible to sort out .. our stories may not be woven together but they are certainly intertwined and tangled.

As far as the books "Stone Butch Blues" or "Well of Loneliness" ... I am have always been a non-fiction reader ... lesbians encouraged me to read these books but I had other interests.

Anyway .. I am glad that we are talking about these difficult issues ... maybe we will gain some understanding ... there I go again ... sigh .... trying to prevent train wrecks like "Dirt."

Eh,

JB

[Guest agfrommd]

Okay, I'll use this topic to sound off about something that troubles me.

What's with all these movies and TV shows where it's depicted as decent (even responsible) behavior for a father to threaten his daughter's dates? Just finished watching a movie where the father (portrayed as a decent sensitive guy) threatens the boy taking his 18-year-old daughter to a wedding that he better not touch her.

Am I the only one who things this is degrading to females?

* No one threatens the dates of teenage boys.

* What message does it give the girl about any confidence in her ability to choose whom she goes out with?

* What message does it give the girl about any confidence in her ability to make decisions?

And since when did threatening anyone or telling them how to act become anything but rude and antisocial? When did it become not only accepted but a father's responsibility?

Here's the thing: I'm a father of a 15-year-old girl. She's spoken to me about some of her crushes, but unfortunately no boy has expressed interest in her romantically. I know our culture tells me I’m supposed to dread that day.

But I don’t. When it happens, I hope she enjoys dating. I trust that she’ll make smart choices and resist pressure to do things she’s not comfortable doing. I even hope she dates a few of the wrong guys so she’ll be sure of the right guy when he comes along. Whatever we fathers are supposed to have that makes us abhor the thought of a daughter dating, I’m missing it (along with most other masculine characteristics that society says ought to come with a Y chromosome).

This makes me nervous. Whenever I find myself on the opposite side of an issue as our entire culture, I wonder what I might be missing. Is my daughter disadvantaged because instead of an ordinarily male father, she's stuck with a mix-gendered androgynous mass of strangeness?

Thoughts?

[Guest aleon515]

As to Billy Tipton etc. It's hard to know by looking back if someone was really transgender. Back in the day, there were so many obstacles in being a woman. You could not pursue any kind of passion or career by being a female. There were people who crossdressed to gain access to the male world where they would have more opportunities. There are probably hundreds (even thousands) of stories thru the ages. (As those are maybe only the ones we know about).

As for having you for a father, AG, I can't believe she would not benefit giving your understanding and sensitivity. No she might not get the stereotyped guy. I'm sure there is nothing extra special in that! She might look for more sensitive guys. Then again she might rebel and look for super masculine types.

--Jay Jay

[Guest Juniper Blue]

AGfromMD ... I think that you have one VERY LUCKY daughter.

I think that what may be going on is that there is this idea that to be masculine one must be gruff ... threatening violence and acting protective has become a way of showing love in many (mainstream working class or low income communities) .. especially for people who assigned "Male" at birth. I grew up with this type of thing in my home and among my friends. I learned this type of behavior .. it is a common way that my family shows concern for one another ... it sounds strange but we threaten to harm anyone who would harm our loved one ... it is kind of a "gang culture" or Honor culture." We may even say something like: "if you ever hurt yourself, I would kick your behind!! It seems like it is a way to say .. "Hey my feelings for you are very intense ... I woudl do anything to try to keep you from suffering" .... it is paired with is feeling that our role is to protect each other... because that is what family does .. that is especially the responsibility of the "man" of the family .. but in my family .. you woudl probably be threatened by a MOB of angry relatives ... did I mention that my Mother's Family is form Palermo, Italy ( known for the Mafia) and that my father (was supposedly) in the Mexican Mafia at one point?? LOL ... enough about my family!

Anyway. I think that it is very sad that Movies and T.V. are replacing paternal tenderness with images like this where a father is threatening violence to a young man.

And .. what does it say about the daughter ? .. What does it say about the trust between her and her father? That is a very good question.

Once again .. you have one lucky daughter!!

I heard about a study today that focused on the media's influence on masculinity .. it was mentioned on a book on tape that I listen to when I run errands ( YES .. I am that big of a NERD!!) but I will try to get the name of the study for you AG. I guess there is a DVD on the subject: the media's influence on "masculinity" and violence. If I find the name of it and the author .. I will post it.

Hugs to You and to ALL,

JB

[Guest agfrommd]

As for having you for a father, AG, I can't believe she would not benefit giving your understanding and sensitivity.

AGfromMD ... I think that you have one VERY LUCKY daughter.

Jay Jay and JB, you are two of my favorite people!

Though after reading Juniper's post, I think I understand the whole thing a lot better. In the primal male way of looking at the world protection=love. Still not sure I like it, and there's a thin line between saying "I'd like to show my love by protecting you" and "you are so helpless you need protecting".

And maybe it's an androgyne thing, but I've never gotten the whole "men should protect, women need protecting" thing. When I see that kind of attitude, I want to divorce my birth gender.

And Juniper - if listening to non-fiction books-on-CD in the car makes you a nerd, I must be one too. Used to have a 35-minute commute to work an always had a non-fiction book in the player.

Thanks for the replies.

[Guest Micha]

And maybe it's an androgyne thing, but I've never gotten the whole "men should protect, women need protecting" thing. When I see that kind of attitude, I want to divorce my birth gender.

Agreed.

[Guest Juniper Blue]

I am in agreement with you AGfromMD! and thanks ...

[Guest Juniper Blue]

You know Kieran ...

I think that experiences of tolerance can range dramatically in different parts of the country and undoubtedly in different communities. When I "came out as lesbian" at 18, I had to leave my conservative community and went in search of a community of people who could embrace me. I have found some incredibly open and accepting communities and little "pockets" of people even in conservative areas.

I sustained a head injury ( the second in my life) in my mid-twenties (my typing is much worse on seizure days.) Anyway, after the injury 17 years ago, I was homeless for 3 years. Somehow, I got involved with a band of women's drummers at that time in my life. I lived in my truck. Anyway, I sang at a lesbian wedding with this band and the women (both AFAB) who were the married couple that I sang for, invited me live with them rent-free until I got back on my feet. While I lived with them, I learned that they hosted meetings for women who were trans gender. Later, I moved into a "Green" co-op ... there were mostly college students here (straight, gay .. questioning and some were exploring gender but at that time, no one living at the house was identified as trans gender) ... Anyway, while my partner and I were living there, a new person came to join us .. When she interviewed, she interviewed as male but she discovered her gender identity over the course of her first year with us and began her transition .. She is still living at the co-op (several years later) and is 100% "out" in all areas of her life. During her transition, there were many times when she was unemployed .. she rented the least expensive room in the house and adjustments were made to help her to stay even when she didn't have money.

So, my point is that there are people everywhere who will be truly supportive.

People in my age group (over 40) who originally come from conservative backgrounds may not know the politically correct terms etc. ... And we may say some stupid things in our attempts to relate, learn and understand. I am ignorant of many things ... This is true ... but that doesn't mean that I am unintelligent ... that doesn't mean that I can't learn ... it certainly doesn't mean that I am not an ally.

Anyway, Kieran ... I hope that helps to explains where I am coming from.

Best to You,

JB

[Guest Weaver]

The [redacted] word?

Nah, just kidding. I would probably be able to write an essay on what I think about today's feminism so here's a few main points.

1. Most of the things that the feminists of old wanted to change, have today been changed. Like womens right to vote, abortion and mistreatment.

I don't have a problem with women complaining that they don't get equal pay for equal work. What I don't like is for example this:

There was a mining company that had brought in a huge amount of money because of the ore they sold. The boss of that company

decided to raise the paychecks of everyone that had helped accomplish that profit. The women in the company started complaining

that they were entitled to raises too. The only problem was that most if not all people that had helped the company and gotten the

raises were all working in the mine. Most of them were of course men. The boss told the women "Well, you can put on a hardhat and

clock in at 6 am like the others, and get equal payment.". None reported in.

Those women had worked in the telephone department of the company. Needless to say, it wouldn't be equal pay if they didn't do

equal work.

2. Another point is feminists who go "Rawr, smash the patriarchy." to which I say "Take off your tinfoil hat, there is no male conspiracy to oppress women.".

At least not anymore.

3. Feminism works for women. One cannot have equality when focusing on one side of the issue.

Why is it that men don't get custody of children as often as women?

Why, if statistics are correct, do men get abused as often as women, and then thrown in jail?

This third point is really only about bias that benefits women in society. Judicial systems, especially in the US are biased towards men in certain questions

Women get less jail time than men do, for the same crimes.

Of course there is bias that benefits males too. A woman is a sleeper if she has sex with a lot of people while a man is a 'stud'.

Violence among men is more accepted and people get mistreated on both sides. That's why I don't like feminism today.

It feels like it focuses on one side of the issues, when one should focus on both sides.

What it basically boils down to is: Yes, feminism is a good movement to have but it's mostly obsolete in the west. What we need is

an equal rights movement. Equal rights for custody of children. If a woman punches a man, he has the right to punch back in defense without

fearing special legal repercussions for hitting 'the weaker sex'. A woman is, IS! entitled to the same pay as a man for the same work.

The way I see it, things are not balanced, it's in favour of women on some fronts and in favour of men on others when it should not be in favour of any specific

one of the genders. It should be equal.

I don't want to get started on femicup cakes or I'll be writing all night.

These are my 3 cents.

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Weaver .. yes .. we most definitely need an EQUAL RIGHT Movement!

[Guest Nicodeme]

I can't see myself identifying as a feminist.

Not just for the fact that people will INSTANTLY shut down when you say it, but because most people identifying as feminists can't seem to agree on the basic tenets of the ideology, and as long as Radical and Separatist feminists are allowed to call themselves feminists, it's clear to me that the movement is not for my benefit. (And I'm not sure it should even be called a movement, what with the whole being unable to agree on what it actually is.)

That, and there's that vocal subset of people who insist that my rejection of a loaded word means I'm just a bitter misogynist. I'm almost invariably alienated by a concept that was supposed to continue helping me.

[Guest Jonnycastle]

Hello

Although I agree that the feminist movement have helped our society and the increased the power that all women may have lacked from one time to another. I have to say its all a bit much, a bit loud and brash I feel that some may use the title feminist to express personal angry and personal issues.

This I don't agree with.

For me I cant understand why there ever had to be any protesting party, we are all human, all one race and I truly believe in equality for every person.

Tomm

[Guest Cody76]

I don't the word feminist but I do strongly believe in equality and equal opportunity. In many ways I think things should be reversed and women should be the more dominating gender but I think that could cause problems as well.

[Guest princessofdarkness]

I am a feminist. But, I don't people blame the ambivalence to it on this thread, given the movement's bad relationship with trans empowerment.

Feminism empowered me to be proud of the woman I am inside. It says that there should be no dominating group, just equality among genders. That's my position, and one I firmly believe in, as do all of you, I know. However...

To me, the most cruel of transphobic people often call themselves feminists, or 'radical' feminists to be more specific. Many of the so called radical feminists fit into every negative myth about feminism. They do hate men (actual feminists don't), even excluding heterosexual women for "sleeping with their oppressors", they don't see the race struggle or class struggle as important (or even existing), and have always expressed a hatred of the transgendered. I'm not going to share any specific quotes (I'm not going to share filth), if you're curious you don't have to look far, frankly their utterly vile words hurt like no others. I'm sure others are aware of what I mean.

These so called "feminists" have, at best, a childish, selfish view of the world, one where the only issues facing society concern woman (you know, themselves, especially since self described radical 'feminists' are overwhelmingly white and middle class). Tell that to black people, poor people, and yes, poor black woman, who don't think the racism and poverty they face is unimportant.

But, I would add, these people may call themselves feminists, but that does not mean they are sole standard bearers. The feminist movement needs to atone for the dehumanizing hatred hurled at the trans community over the years. I read the good feminists talk about how the transphobic element in the feminist movement is a minority. But they must be a loud minority, so loud it seems like they're the majority. If they're that vocal about their hatred of transgendered women (and transgendered men) then the other side, the alleged 'majority', needs to be that much more louder about how the trans community is a welcomed and important inclusion into the feminist movement.

Hello feminists! Our (transwomen/transmen/genderqueer people) existence destroys the gender binary!

So yes, I'm a feminist, and proud of it. They gave me the strength to find the woman I held within. The tenants of feminism I hold close to my heart. But, my feelings about the movement, are mixed. The ideas of flawless. The individuals who claim to uphold and defend those ideals of equality are victim's to human error and bigotry.

In the end, does it matter if I call myself a feminist, or I don't? To quote Shakespeare, "What's in a name? That which we call a rose By any other name would smell just as sweet". In other words, the title of "feminist" is irrelevant in comparison to the question, "Do you believe in equality?" As long as you believe in equality of genders, and equality for everyone everywhere, you're my ally. And if you call yourself a feminist, but say transwomen aren't allowed, and race issues don't exist, poverty is unimportant you're no ally to equality, you're an enemy to it.

Princess

[Guest Kendall]

With the recent passing away of Androgyny and androgynous theory pioneer Sandra Bem, whose theories helped charge the Feminist movement in the 70s and 80s, leads me to be unsure of what feminists means to me. As a born male (sometimes called MAAB), feminists in what i see more latch on to what used to be called masculinity. Feminists don't spend a lot of time on androgynous males. Yes the glass ceiling is breaking for women, Masculism doesn't really mean the same thing for someone born male. I don't really know what to feel for neither feminism nor masculism. Androgynism however small, is more my benificial to me. Androgynism however isn't organized nearly as well.

[Guest KatyDesire]

I would consider myself a feminist. I hate the "glass ceiling", together with all the large and small areas of discrimination. I live in a country with a long and shameful history of discrimination. But 20 years ago we got a constitution guaranteeing equal treatment for all. Huge efforts are made from the highest levels to fight against it.

But, after 20 years, the fight is far from won.

In this sense I consider myself a dyed in the wool feminist.

However, what I object to are the radical feminists who take the view (amongst others) that all there is to gender is up - bringing. That boys play with trucks and girls with dolls only because that is how we indoctrinate kids.

Clearly, anyone on this site knows that is nonsense. Otherwise how does the super macho man suddenly discover he is trans? Anyone who has been on hormones will testify to how they change the way your brain works.

So the radical feminists HAVE to attack any person who, by their existence, is proof that the tenets of radical feminism are thoroughly false.

And so they must hate us, because we, by existing, are proof that they are wrong.

And I will never stop advocating for equal treatment of all, irrespective of sex, gender, sexual expression or gender expression.

Love you all

[Guest LizMarie]

That is not all of the "radical" feminists, Katy, just a particular subset, who are often called TERFs (Transgender Exclusionary Radical Feminists). There is actually a large body of radical feminists who embrace transwomen and who are aware that biology does play a role. They embrace transwomen because often those transwomen are walking living proof of the existence of male privilege, having received male privilege when identifying as male and having seen it withdrawn when identifying as female.

So the distinctions are a bit more granular than just radical feminists.

[Guest bazer63]

I feel that feminism must include transgender women as other wise your basically saying that you see women as walking vaginas. We should also included disscussions on how gender intersect with race, class, sexual orientation, disability ect. I support it.

[GothicLucas]

This has been a very interesting thread to read. I always thought of myself as having feminist tendencies, but when I actually tried to learn about it and get involved in it at age 19, I was very turned off by what I found. I've continued researching it for the past 10 years, and only recently have I seen anything that redeems the 'F' word in my mind.

I've thought of myself as some kind of extreme radical feminist who thinks all the other feminists are doing it wrong. I actually think a lot of mainstream feminist ideas are misogynistic. I'm afab, grew up in a female-dominated family, and grew up believing that I had to discard all feminine qualities and all traditionally female roles in order to be a real woman. I was always in such distress over the fact that no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't be the person everyone told me I had to be; I'm mild-mannered, polite, and care more about personal happiness than career success or monetary wealth. I had an identity crisis when I found a partner and found myself taking on the role of homemaker and then mother, roles that I was taught I should never, ever desire if I wanted to be strong and successful. Roles that I literally vowed to myself I would never take.

It wasn't until I was into Lolita fashion (from Japan, not porn related whatsoever) that I learned how much power can come from somebody who is sweet, feminine, lovely, and delicate. Lolitas carry a ladylike sense of independence, confidence, and strength. They know what they want and how to obtain it. I think that true feminism comes from embracing naturally feminine qualities and removing the shame from traditionally feminine roles. Well, a part of it anyway, since the main points of feminism are political and pertain to legal rights, not gender identity or one's life choices.

I finally found peace with myself when I thought of myself as a feminine guy instead of a cisgender woman. I don't know. For some reason I'm more comfortable appearing as a guy. I was never a gruff, butch tomboy, but I always hated girly crap, which was why I thought I was a feminist at first. I'm somewhere in between. And even though I dislike girlishness for myself, I've grown very fond of it and have an outsider's appreciation for it.

There are a million other reasons feminism irks me, but I won't discuss them here. I could start an entire blog with my thoughts. I'd like to, but I'm afraid of the backlash, since as some of you know, some extremists can get pretty nasty if you don't proclaim your unwavering loyalty to their cause. That's another problem I have with it, actually...it's sometimes more like a religious cult than a group of people exchanging ideas on how to make the world better.