Is Femininity Inborn?

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Being the troublemaker I tend to be, here is a new question.

I have a book "Pink Think," by Lynn Peril, 2002. It is subtitled Becoming a Woman in Many Uneasy Lessons. This is not a guidebook at all, but rather an extended study on femininity in America - mainly on daily media exposure and how the world around us is enforces the idea of what it is to be an American woman. I find this book fascinating as it is entirey from a female point of view. The author goes back as far as to her childhood/girlhood, in the 1950s and 60s, so it may not be understandable to you younger people - but much of it is grounded in today's world.

It raises the following topic, which I throw out here, a question I ask myself.

Is femininity inborn?

Quoting - she uses a book Facts of Life and Love for Teenagers" 1950s

"Girls are born female. Nature endows girls with physical potentialities of becoming women. The basic physical characteristics that make girls forever different from boys and women different from men... these are her [a girl's] essential femaleness."

"Femininity, on the other hand, is learned. Most of what goes into making a woman act and behave like a woman is learned as she grows up - as a little girl, as a budding young woman, and as the mature, full grown woman."

Back to comments from me - I think these two statements give us something to think about . How do we as MTF relate to femaleness? - to femininity? (reverse for FTM)

Personally, in response to part one, I feel we MTF are born female in mind, but saddly find ourselves with the.. to turn the quote above around... 'physical potentialities of becoming men.' But we still cannot maintain the "basic physical characteristics that make boys forever different from girls and men different from women."

Somehow we retain a certain 'femaleness.' Yikes - DEEEEEP THOUGHTS.

And again personally, part two, I feel we strive for the missing femininity - always needing affirmation of our femaleness.

(Reverse this for FTM - seems to apply when turned around)

Whew...

This topic seemingly applies to transgendered - I don't know if it is applicable to cross dressers, intersexed and the others on this forum?

I would hope to hear some more on this from you girls and guys. Wadda ya think?

Is femininity inborn?

Is this too deep?

[Guest Dutchie]

Hi Elizabeth,

It's not too deep for me! I have read many of your posts and I admire your thoughts, I don't agree with everything but I do respect your opinion.

Forgive my sometimes difficult way of expressing things, I'm not a native English speaker, hence my grammar is usually slightly different.

Why is this question in the introductions? Any special reason?

Ok onto: "Is femininity inborn?"

My thought is YES! I base my opinion on what I have read so far and there is no conclusive evidence that it's either nature or nurture. So why I say YES when there is no conclusive evidence? Simple, the studied subjects aren't 100% female or 100% male. Too many variables and too much vagueness. There are girlish boys and boyish girls, they do show that behaviour from early on.

What about a baby boy who reaches out for dolls and cuddly toys, instead of the red fire truck?

What about a baby girl doing the opposite?

I've seen it, but does that define inborn femininity/masculinity? I don't know, I need the proper definition of femininity first:

Noun 1. femininity - the trait of behaving in ways considered typical for women

It applies to the baby example. What about when those two grow up and are more or less forced to behave according to their physical sex?

Suddenly the boy doesn't behave like a woman any more, does that take away his preferences? No, he might hide it to avoid being called names.

What about the girl? Strangely enough it seems more acceptable to behave boy-ish (tomboy) and she might be told off for certain things, and in general it's a similar struggle.

Ok, now take an author of a publication about femininity, (s)he might not have seen the two above when they were babies, only older... What is the conclusion then? Is it learned? Part of it, yes! Why? We learn to behave in certain ways to avoid conflict. It's that simple and basic. So the same applies to girls growing up normally, they learn to act feminine. But what if it is indeed "just" an act? What if the inborn part seeps through, you get a tomboy or a nancygirl (I'm still unsure of the opposite of tomboy). Many of us have seen it, the girl who acts subconsciously like a guy or vice versa. It's partially proof that you can not fully suppress what is inborn. The ones who are endangered in one form or another are the ones who constantly are aware of their actions and suppress the ones that might cause them harm. It's slow but very effective, it's a long term brain wash.

Now the part that is definitely inborn, in my opinion. Preferences... Why do we like this and that...

From my earliest memories I had the preferences of a girl (and still do). I don't feel that my brain has changed under the HRT. Why? Because it was already female. It's not something I choose, it's not something I imagined, I just base this part on my preferences.

Imagine this: A guy in the navy buys a stuffed animal in every harbour he visits. They vary from cuddly chameleons to teddy bears. He uses as an excuse that he buys them for his niece/nephew. On the ship he works he has one hidden near his bed and at home he keeps them on display for himself. Why he hides it? Fear of ridicule. Yet that is (part of) his preferences associated with femininity. (That guy was me, 20-something years ago and clueless about transgender issues).

Now for even more thoughts...

If a person chooses to look and act according to the opposite gender, the biggest part is undeniable learned. The part that is inborn is what makes us differ within our community, some just dress and get back to their regular schedule, others take pride in putting up a fabulous show (and get back to their regular schedule after), others want to act upon their inborn preferences and feelings.

<jumps back to earlier thoughts> Back to the babies for a moment. When you're born, you look around and start imitating the people around you. "Normal" children take on their role as expected and identify themselves with the parent of the same gender. I wonder what happens to "single mom" sons? I couldn't find any research on that. Is there an increase in transgenders amongst that group? If so, then it's more nurture than nature. But again, we do know so little about all the factors involved that make us which gender we feel we should be.

It's not really an answer, I do know that. It's just my thoughts on the subject. There are too many variations to say this and this is inborn.

The physical aspect is easier, WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get)

Ok not so, but you get the point. An example: A CD can be perceived perfectly like a woman, whereas a TS can be perceived as a man (taking the MTF example), the physical appearance of the TS might be female, but if her actions aren't accordingly the picture is disturbed. If people don't act according to our learned expectations, we perceive them as odd (to say the least).

Actually there is some thought hanging on the edge of my mind, it tries to form itself but doesn't complete...

I think we're missing something. A Third element!

We have the physical aspect and the act. Both can be changed.

What defines you as a woman, or in my case why do I feel I'm a woman?

I can't really say what it is, I just feel it. Sure I can analyse my life and see all the feminine likes/habits/preferences/etc. Does that define my womanhood? If not then what does? (And why do we (or at least part of us) fall back to the binary system when it concerns our own gender?)

Ok, to be continued I hope.... I'm starting to have more questions than answers... How typical this is...

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Dutchie - your response is exactly what I hoped for - a long discussion on the issue - a touch on the two parts of the issue - and you even added a thirt part, what is a woman?

I read your post several times - yes your English is excellent, and the slight changes in sentence structure and such (which shows English is not your first language) all makes the reply that much more interesting.

I see your postings also and enjoy them. This site is wonderful in its diversity of people and ideas.

So here was a great and complicated TOPIC. I see your points on femininty with gender dysphoric people, as we all tend to try to work through definitions.

And that is my point, I suppose, in bringing up the TOPIC. You said it yourself, what is the definition of 'femininity." You had to have looked it up. What you quoted - in my opinion was terribly inaccurate (the source, not you).

"Noun 1. femininity - the trait of behaving in ways considered typical for women"

So what exactly IS "considered typical for women"? And why can't femininity be better defined?

If we don't know how to define 'femininity" we must not truely understand what it is.

So how can we ever know if it is inborn or learned?

Ahah - now it gets deep.

Personally I feel the Pink Think author Lynn Peril has divided this topic into "femininity" and 'femaleness." The reason, it seems, is one is the mind, the other the body. Can an 'assigned at birth' male ever have "femininity" - certainly. Can an 'assigned at birth' male ever have "femaleness" - a more diffucult question to answer.

For that person to have femininity, he would to either learn it, or have it reflect off his female mind.

Ahah - "reflect off his female mind" - that us MTF transsexuals! But we understand that statement because we live it.

So the answer could be - BOTH. Femininity is learned AND is sometimes inborn, at least to those who have a female mind.

As to femaleness, that poor 'assigned at male' at birth - to have femaleness, has to become a female by losing his maleness, and achieving femaleness through medical and grooming means - essentially, body modification (from HRT to SRS and everything in beween?).

So the answer could be femaleness is inborn - but it can also be elective.

Hummm - seems like the question - and the two parts are still open to interpretation.

I don't believe anyone will EVER agree on the definitions, so how can we ever know the answers.

And I didn't even address your suggested third point - 'womanliness."

Wadda ya think???

[Guest Ginag]

Dutchie & Elizabeth K.

I am new to this site and the TS community and really enjoy your posts. On a personal level, without getting into any philosophy, I believe feminization is [mostly] in-bred. Using myself as an example, I did everything possible to suppress my female side. I played all the male reindeer games, and developed an extremely masculine physique so no one would ever question my "manhood". I lived happily in a man's world, suppressing the female side, but always knowing it was there. But after four decades of suppression, the female side has emerged victorious and is completely dominating what is left of the feeble male side. So, based only on my experience, I believe the female side is in-born, and no matter how hard you try to suppress it, you can't deny it. If it wasn't for the external pressure of what society feels is normal for a biological male, my male side would not have survived past age five. I don't know why, or if this is common among older TS, but it seems you reach a point in your life, and if you have a high level of in-bred feminization, it suddenly grows so strong, even after decades, you can't control it, and you must embrace it fully in order to be your true self.

Just my thought...

Love, Gina G

[Guest Apriladam]

Elizabeth,

Following the line of thouht that you first mentioned, I believe that feminimity is inborn, however not to its full potential.

Let me explain, we as mtf are female of mind, not of body (until we successfully transition), therefore we share the inborn feminimity of a girl. however due to our upbringing as 'males' we do not have the additional side of feminimity of which would be, and i used the term loosely, Learned. (Obviously reverse this idea for ftm)

That is one reason why we as mtf have to 'learn' this feminimity to be able to successfully pass.

i have not started any therapies as of yet, i am seeing a therapist, and this is the best explanation i could come up with at this time, please let me know what you think hun....

Hugs

April

PS: i hope i have not offended anyone. if i have, i would like to apologise, no offence was intended.

[Guest Dutchie]

Hiya Elzibeth, Gina, April,

(And everyone else who is reading along)

I seem to have a temporary disturbance in my short term memory, I had noticed I thought this thread was posted in the Introductions yesterday. Today I have been digging through the forum to find the post again! I seem to be extremely forgetful the last few days. Sorry for that!

Ok, I have started and deleted, started and deleted. It's all about definitions that are vague.

Woman: opposite of man. female human? GG?

Female: opposite of male?

In your first post you quote the book: girls are born female and can become women! Ah-hah! It comes to the reproduction then?

What is the difference between a female and a woman? I can not come to a good answer in the first place. But I think woman is XX chromosomes, female can be XX, XY, XXY, XYY.

Is it then correct to say that a TS can be a female, but not a woman? As much as I don't like it, I think it's yes.

Ok we established that part is inborn. (Thank you April, you were on the same line of thought as me).

Looking back to the above part (which I had written yesterday) I am actually convinced there is no true answer to the questions. The definitions aren't set in stone, there are based on concepts. That is the whole trouble, I think.

Perhaps in the future we don't need to think about it, hopefully we (the society) are more accustomed to genderfluid ideas.

Dutchie

[Guest Evan_J]

Ooo, this is a good one, -topic I mean- very deep. No, I'm not contributing this time, just had the T and the flush is still on me lol but Dutchie actually went to where my mind was headed.....

"Female: opposite of male?

In your first post you quote the book: girls are born female and can become women! Ah-hah! It comes to the reproduction then?

What is the difference between a female and a woman? I can not come to a good answer in the first place. But I think woman is XX chromosomes, female can be XX, XY, XXY, XYY."

just because that actually explains (and rather well Dutchie ) what Elizabeth posthulated; that a MtF, although born male would likely never be able to become "a man"

Here's the "flip around" for FtMs utilizing some of the original language:

A person, although female due to any of the possible chromosome combinations that cause the physical potential of becoming a woman, the individual might never be able to physically maintain being a "woman" if woman is exclusively xx.

It definately begs to the question "what is a woman" then. And splits the hair of female vs. woman.

I'm almost tempted to start a brother thread and ask the fellas to split male vs. man vs. masculine for me. It starts off "obvious" right up until you add that third element. But I'd rather listen to this one for a while.... Besides lol I think the guys do enough arguing over "what is a man".

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Good responses! I always knew we transsexual tended to be smarter than average (its in the literature, I swear) and this crop of people responding are positively 'brilliant" - [you might notice I include myself].

Seriously (if that is possible)

When I bought the book Pink Think - which is definately NOT geared toward transgender considerations - it hit me. This non-TS book is talking about some very basic issues for the gender dysphoric community (don't you wonder about that term? I am dysphoric? hummmm - Methodist maybe, but dysphoric?)

Seriously, and I mean it for real, this time - grin

It seems - hi Gina G and AprilAdam by the way - that everyone hits on the same note here - in a way. BUT what surprises me is the interesting questions that evolve in this discussion, definitions:

Female vs Woman

and

Male vs Man

Wow - the original topic Femaleness versus Femininity seemed a question of how those terms are defined. And personally I never think of myself as feminine in my hardwiring in the brain, but rather as female. I never think of transitioning into femininity, but rather into female.

But since my "revelation and acceptance" (read that as, "it hit me that I am a MTF transsexual" - and it felt... well... rather a good thing, hummm don't exactly know why)

Ahhh.... getting back to the point. But since my diagnoses I have realized, without a lot of effort, I am becoming very feminine, wait... let me finish... I have become more in touch with my femininity. Its always been there - I now know that. The denial and repression of my innate femininity (necessary to play at being a real man) is part of what has made me so miserable for 50+ years!!!

(yes-yes - mature madame, me).

So I do feel "if" femininity isn't innate and has to be learned, I had it down pat at about age 1 month old!

I will mention, to 'learn' to be feminine isn't that easy in a child being brought up male, but some children do a very good job of it.

What I learned of femininity - as I progressed baby to mature "man" - came from observation, rather than practice (well, plus a lot of cross dressing - but that is another topic).

I LOVE women and their femininity - even the most militant feminist woman just exudes femininity, in my opinion - she can't help it (I must be really have gone over the hill to say that!). BUT I love women - and in an odd way - I want to be just like that beautifal girl on the catwalk, the mother nursing her baby, the little girl in pigtails with ice cream all over her face... you can probably get the idea... sigh... I am et up with the IDEA of femininity!

Or am I et up with the idea of 'femalenss?"

Well - FTM may not project femininity and work hard to not to show femaleness - I have only one FTM in my family - she hated femininity, and was good at NOT presenting either way, if anyone accepts the idea of a natal woman 'presenting' non-feminine. I prefer the term she was good presenting "masculine" - hey Evan - help me here? She had more difficultly hidding femaleness, but was pretty good at that too. {she still uses "she" for herself not "he"}

Reverse that for MTF.

Ramble-Ramble-ramble - sorry [For goodness sake, sum this all up Elizabeth!]

Of course, it all seems the

Female vs Woman

and

Male vs Man

questions are still unanswered.

Let me say - I can easily insert "woman" or "girl" or even "gal" into anything I think or say about myself, in the place of "female" that is.

That old cliche' for example, I am a FEMALE? WOMAN ? GIRL ? GAL? in a MANS? MALE? GUY's? body.

That answers the question for me - these words seem somewhat interchangable - but that is me.

Another example:

I have been waking up in the morning feeling female (part of the transition process kicking in , I guess)

I an just as easily say I have been waking up in the morning feeling like a woman.

HA...

"Scrambled eggs here, but still chicken fruit... " she said, smiling.

Liz the trouble maker

[Guest Dutchie]

I knew it! ROFL ok, my full reply will be coming soon! But when I read this, I had to reply to:

Good responses! I always knew we transsexual tended to be smarter than average (its in the literature, I swear) and this crop of people responding are positively 'brilliant" - [you might notice I include myself].

"it's in the literature"? We want facts, with graphs, pie charts, links, the works...

Wow - the original topic Femaleness versus Femininity seemed a question of how those terms are defined. And personally I never think of myself as feminine in my hardwiring in the brain, but rather as female. I never think of transitioning into femininity, but rather into female.

Now this was the part that made me reply so "quick". I don't see myself as transitioning into anything. I'm in the process of adjusting my presentation to the expectations of society. Why I see it that way? Because society doesn't want to know about us, until we blend in.

<Dutchie glances at her nearby crystal ball> Hmm, it might take a century or two before society is ready for us... Or maybe I need to polish my ball again... Oh well.

To be continued...

[Guest Ginag]

Good responses! I always knew we transsexual tended to be smarter than average (its in the literature, I swear) and this crop of people responding are positively 'brilliant" - [you might notice I include myself].

Seriously (if that is possible)

When I bought the book Pink Think - which is definately NOT geared toward transgender considerations - it hit me. This non-TS book is talking about some very basic issues for the gender dysphoric community (don't you wonder about that term? I am dysphoric? hummmm - Methodist maybe, but dysphoric?)

Seriously, and I mean it for real, this time - grin

It seems - hi Gina G and AprilAdam by the way - that everyone hits on the same note here - in a way. BUT what surprises me is the interesting questions that evolve in this discussion, definitions:

Female vs Woman

and

Male vs Man

Wow - the original topic Femaleness versus Femininity seemed a question of how those terms are defined. And personally I never think of myself as feminine in my hardwiring in the brain, but rather as female. I never think of transitioning into femininity, but rather into female.

But since my "revelation and acceptance" (read that as, "it hit me that I am a MTF transsexual" - and it felt... well... rather a good thing, hummm don't exactly know why)

Ahhh.... getting back to the point. But since my diagnoses I have realized, without a lot of effort, I am becoming very feminine, wait... let me finish... I have become more in touch with my femininity. Its always been there - I now know that. The denial and repression of my innate femininity (necessary to play at being a real man) is part of what has made me so miserable for 50+ years!!!

(yes-yes - mature madame, me).

So I do feel "if" femininity isn't innate and has to be learned, I had it down pat at about age 1 month old!

I will mention, to 'learn' to be feminine isn't that easy in a child being brought up male, but some children do a very good job of it.

What I learned of femininity - as I progressed baby to mature "man" - came from observation, rather than practice (well, plus a lot of cross dressing - but that is another topic).

I LOVE women and their femininity - even the most militant feminist woman just exudes femininity, in my opinion - she can't help it (I must be really have gone over the hill to say that!). BUT I love women - and in an odd way - I want to be just like that beautifal girl on the catwalk, the mother nursing her baby, the little girl in pigtails with ice cream all over her face... you can probably get the idea... sigh... I am et up with the IDEA of femininity!

Or am I et up with the idea of 'femalenss?"

Well - FTM may not project femininity and work hard to not to show femaleness - I have only one FTM in my family - she hated femininity, and was good at NOT presenting either way, if anyone accepts the idea of a natal woman 'presenting' non-feminine. I prefer the term she was good presenting "masculine" - hey Evan - help me here? She had more difficultly hidding femaleness, but was pretty good at that too. {she still uses "she" for herself not "he"}

Reverse that for MTF.

Ramble-Ramble-ramble - sorry [For goodness sake, sum this all up Elizabeth!]

Of course, it all seems the

Female vs Woman

and

Male vs Man

questions are still unanswered.

Let me say - I can easily insert "woman" or "girl" or even "gal" into anything I think or say about myself, in the place of "female" that is.

That old cliche' for example, I am a FEMALE? WOMAN ? GIRL ? GAL? in a MANS? MALE? GUY's? body.

That answers the question for me - these words seem somewhat interchangable - but that is me.

Another example:

I have been waking up in the morning feeling female (part of the transition process kicking in , I guess)

I an just as easily say I have been waking up in the morning feeling like a woman.

HA...

"Scrambled eggs here, but still chicken fruit... " she said, smiling.

Liz the trouble maker

Elizabeth,

I love reading your posts. Your thoughts are phenomenal. You go girl!!!

Love Gina G

[Guest Evan_J]

"it's in the literature"? We want facts, with graphs, pie charts, links, the works...

I love it, gal after my own heart, comes right out shoutin "prove it" lol.

But seriously....

Wow - the original topic Femaleness versus Femininity seemed a question of how those terms are defined. And personally I never think of myself as feminine in my hardwiring in the brain, but rather as female. I never think of transitioning into femininity, but rather into female.

Now this was the part that made me reply so "quick". I don't see myself as transitioning into anything. I'm in the process of adjusting my presentation to the expectations of society. Why I see it that way? Because society doesn't want to know about us, until we blend in.

Both beautiful statements. And both fundamentally true. You don't "transition" into femininity or masculinity any more than you "transition" into or out of neatness, righthandedness, or liking brocoli in my estimation. All of those things are part innate tendancy and the remainder learned reinforcement. Therefore there's not a transition of the "self". The presentation -the features of congruent with "femaleness" and "maleness", independent of "womanliness" and "manliness"- is what's altered or "transitioned".

Amazingly (this convo makes me think of it) not that long ago (a few weeks) I got a copy of some things said by Dr. Bushong (yep the one listed in the therapist list here) back in 1997 (apparently at that time his stance was a big deal) that pretty much said these same things. The long version can be found here:

http://doctorbushong.com/pubs/what_is_gender.asp

The short, laymans version is that for him a transsexual is an individual fulfilling all of the criteria inherent in placing someone in a gender except physical bits. ie what in this conversation is "femaleness"/"maleness".

Its why it would be false to say someone is "becoming a woman" or "turning into a woman" although you could say they are transitioning into a "female". "Womanliness" and "Manliness" is largely dependent upon the individual in question much as femininity and masculinity though perhaps being composed of different elements.

Well - FTM may not project femininity and work hard to not to show femaleness - I have only one FTM in my family - she hated femininity, and was good at NOT presenting either way, if anyone accepts the idea of a natal woman 'presenting' non-feminine. I prefer the term she was good presenting "masculine" - hey Evan - help me here? She had more difficultly hidding femaleness, but was pretty good at that too. {she still uses "she" for herself not "he"}

See, thats where we get to cutting hairs again, is she actually FtM <which actually is implying disposing of the "perfect" state of femaleness (because even an FtM who only "partly" transitions is no longer physically, "perfectly" female in these terms) or is she transgendered? Not looking to be "male".

And FYI this is about the place it gets heated -at least with fellas- cuz some claim the status of being "male" (though it might better be worded as "men" and lets not even get into "manliness") yet theres not one excepted definition for "male" truthfully amongst FtMs. (And I will "pull the cloth off it", they're arguing about penises ) And truthfully , this topic does much to address the other matter of "males" (<--all appropriate bits in place) who are not necessarily men, and can and idividual be a male without being a "man". Technically, (and I'm actually setting myself up to get blasted by folks) the existence of an MtF says "yes".

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Evan - good points as always. I like you when you are serious , you can deliver some great thoughts. I seem to just 'stur it up' - but hey, that can provoke some thought on the serious side too...

In any case, theis discussion has widened - why not do some more...

FTM? I have my cousin FTM (yes I agree she is really he, and is FTM but for what ever reasons - probably a rural upbringing - he (I am switching pronouns) is in denial. Now I have known him for 56 years. I know his history but we are limited in the discussions of transsexuality we have had- and mainly I go back to early years (age 10, 12, 16 perhaps) to find revelations. I am not a therapist, or even know enough to pretend to be (Dr. Phil comes to mind - but that is another discussion). My cousin never told me he wanted a penis. I sure he probably did, but I don't know for sure. But I am prepared to bet the family dairy farm (oops, let out that secret - thats where he grew up) that not only was he deeply saddned NOT to have one, but also would gladly have married and fathered children with his female "partner" if he had had one." It seems he also referred to his life as 'fighting the demon." I think he considers himself a life-long lesbian rather than transsexual, but I know for a fact he wanted to be a boy at age six. Now I won't even ask about the lesbian angle.

My question is this -he was never feminine - he hated being in a female body. He acted on his needs and essentially acted out as a male his entire life. He has no penis - yet I see him as a man. Should I instead revise that to say I see him as manly?

I am - in God's greatd joke on our family - the opposite in a sense. I am MTF and completely accepting of the fact. Have been a girl in a male body for those same 56 years plus. I did NOT grow up in a rural setting and was able to have a better 'book' education, so I had better resoures earlier to help me figure out what I was - and I still didn't get it exactly right until recently. I have a penis - I don't want it - but right now it is there. I do not have a vagina and could hope for a good imitation (anyone wanna trade for real - grin). I hate being male in body. But I never acted out on my needs, and 'pretended' to be male my entire life. People see me as a man. I could only achieve the status of a T-woman and can never be a GG or natal female. But in a twisted way I consider myself as a woman. (My therapist helped the girl me grow up - grin) Should I revise that to say I am womanly?

Ha - wadda you think people???

[Guest Evan_J]

My question is this -he was never feminine - he hated being in a female body. He acted on his needs and essentially acted out as a male his entire life. He has no penis - yet I see him as a man. Should I instead revise that to say I see him as manly?

In my opinion, and using the definitions set in this thread, (and if I felt like he told me he saw himself as anything non-female) then I would call him a man, manliness I would determine by fulness of how he executed what you actually have yet to define for this thread , and say that he was only not male.

Same for you, A woman, only not female yet. And I say "yet" because even if the "approximation" of a vagina is an "approximation" its potential for use in the preponderence of ways that a genetic female could utilize it (for me) would endow the bearer with the legitamacy of claiming that label.

If we're just very straight forward with it, what are the potential uses of a vagina?

As a biological part associated with urinating

Self erotic gratification

The erotic gratification of another person

The birthing of a child

The male list actually is exactly the same with just switching "birthing of a child" with "ejaculating sperm containing semenal fluid".

And unless I missed something 3 out of 4 is stll a "preponderence". A bunch of folks like to give a "magical" quality to having the potential to perform the last items on each list, and while they are "beautiful" and "vital" they are only so usually in terms of species maintenance or the subjective values alloted to them by religious, ethnic, or social subgroupings. They still, in the strictest terms are "one potential use".

[Guest Elizabeth K]

In my opinion, and using the definitions set in this thread, (and if I felt like he told me he saw himself as anything non-female) then I would call him a man, manliness I would determine by fulness of how he executed what you actually have yet to define for this thread , and say that he was only not male.

Same for you, A woman, only not female yet. And I say "yet" because even if the "approximation" of a vagina is an "approximation" its potential for use in the preponderence of ways that a genetic female could utilize it (for me) would endow the bearer with the legitamacy of claiming that label.

If we're just very straight forward with it, what are the potential uses of a vagina?

As a biological part associated with urinating

Self erotic gratification

The erotic gratification of another person

The birthing of a child

The male list actually is exactly the same with just switching "birthing of a child" with "ejaculating sperm containing semenal fluid".

And unless I missed something 3 out of 4 is stll a "preponderence". A bunch of folks like to give a "magical" quality to having the potential to perform the last items on each list, and while they are "beautiful" and "vital" they are only so usually in terms of species maintenance or the subjective values alloted to them by religious, ethnic, or social subgroupings. They still, in the strictest terms are "one potential use".

I agree - makes perfect sense. Bang, bang, bang - do I hear nails ponding down the end of discussion? Is it over?

Nawwww - we are a verbal tribe here at Lauras. We will argue, wrangle, debate and posture 'til the cows come home (I always wondered where they had been before they came home and why it took them so long to get back - hummmm)

Elizabeth - enough dear

I have always felt that I was female but in a male body. My male body had few female characteristics as just a body (say without "me" in it - my soul? well... another topic there). Most male bodies have a hint of female, especially when young = the immature voice of a boy for example - and all the pre-puberty characteristics (so it can be argued that - say - lack of a beard is not a necessarily a sign of being female and can also be a sign of not being a mature male, which is rather obvious, but think about that for a minute - is that part of the plan?).

The only mature male female characteristic that is obvious is male nipples (strange - may be others but I can't think of any right now) - speaking externally of course. And there are males that have more of the mature female's characteristics (breast tissue for example) - ands there are females that have mature male's characteristics (fascial hair). So nothing is absolute - which we usually understand but often forget to consider.

But back to the idea of my body. We me in it, my body has changed toward being female by my direct actions. I still have not achieved primary female characteristics such as a female reproductive system (discussed her already), but I have achieved or at least started to achieve secondary female characteristics (breasts, soft texure skin, female voice etc). I was easily able to aquire the cosmetic female characteristics (well not that easily) such as long hair, smooth legs, long nails etc. But much of the work on secondary and cosmetic characteristics require deletion of the male secondary and cosmetic characteristics such as the beard and body hair, loss of upper body strength and musculature, and male voice (this last is a work in progress - emphasis on "work").

Not every female characteristic can be achieved, not every male characteristic can be lost. This is an obvious statement and is possibly the core of our misery as transsexual people. We are perfectionists in our minds (usually) but fail to completely transform our bodies to our ideal. So we compromise. AND we settle for what we CAN do. Or in the worse case, what we can afford to do.

And thinking on the wording "afford to do.' it occurs to me that can mean dollars, and it can mean payment in emotion and mental angst. Extending that thought, it can mean payments in our lifestyles - loss of spouse, children, loved ones, friends - also loss of job, house, income - there can be a great cost being transsexual and acting on our need to reconcile mind, body and soul. Dear God please preserve us in our need!

Well... I always seem to go to extremes, sorry.

I suppose the irony here is - as transsexual - we give so much to approach but never exactly achieve the perfection we seek. But the good news is we are adaptable creatures and can ususally (usually for most of us) reconcile a compromise - somehow - IF WE COME CLOSE to our ideal body image. The key to happiness here seems to reside in that fact.

We as MTF and FTM and everything inbetween - we all have that responsibility to be happy. No one else can do it for us (although their help is greatly apprecaited). How many of us, upon outing to someone, has heard the response, 'I hope you find happiness" - or peace - or resolution (its all about the same thing). Somehow we can usually strike that note in the non-gender dysphoric. I find that split second of 'connection' with another human as absolutely amazing. I also know human nature - and that connection will be brief, and may soon disappear - auggggh - but it was there.

So girls and guys - up to us. Always has been and always will be. Laura's Playground is a blessing and in many cases a literal life saver... amen... sermon over.

So quoting the 'everyman' of our modern world, Forrest Gump, "thats all I have to say about that."

[Guest Evan_J]

Amen!

...But you still didn't define "womanliness" lol.

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Amen!

...But you still didn't define "womanliness" lol.

Opposite of manliness? Ha - as good a definiton as you find elsewhere and a cop-out at best.

[Guest Evan_J]

Opposite of manliness? Ha - as good a definiton as you find elsewhere and a cop-out at best.

[Guest Kelly Ann]

Trying as hard as I might to not straddle a fence...doggone the Cleavers and their picketts...at least I have long legs. Hasn't the role that gender plays become somewhat blurred in the last 20 years or so? Maybe I've been blind or at the least more myoptic than presumed by prescription. It's difficult for me to grasp this concept and concurrently as easy as breathing to come to grips with it. Easy Right? LOL...I am thinking of this in terms of dancing because it's a real reflection of your inner self-expression...the MAN leads on a slow dance (unless he is hopelessly cursed with 3 left feet...dump him girls)...FAST dances the Man follows the Woman (watch their eyes watch you, their bodies follow if they're breathing). I believe it's part of your genetic make-up...now when they find the codonal nexus for this we'll talk about a revolution. I could no more change the way I am than make the sun rise paisley tomorrow morning...hmmmm, I think I'd like that...my masculine side looks me straight in the eye and smiles...and my feminine side looks up and right back tilting her head to the side...smiles holding her palms up, bends her arms and shrugs giggling...it's more difficult to be a woman than a man, I think, unless the shoe is on the other foot, Kelly Ann (and just where does that guy with 3 left feet buy his shoes?)

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Kelly Ann - love those ideas!

I have always wondered why it seemed so much harder to be a woman - and it caused me terrible problems when play-acting as a man. That would be a great new topic. Why are women so deeply into life while men seem to just want to go watch the game on TV? Or something like that.

And when I say so much harder, I am suggesting for one example, that the interconnectiveness of life seems to weigh so heavily in the female mind.

Well - if it's true a MTF transgender person has a female mind - I suspect that's true - perhaps that is why when I speak with men I have to 'dumb down' to be even half way accepted. That's a hard way to live.

This topic has gone on so long!

[Guest eshaver]

Elizibeth, the short answer to you're query--------------- YES!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ellen Shaver

[Guest Evan_J]

This topic has gone on so long!

Yes it has.

(wait, don't hit me lol)

<--has finally hit his Testosterone threshold

the interconnectiveness of life seems to weigh so heavily in the female mind.

**grumbles something about "because women don't have enough to do, thats why"....and looks for the remote control

<--is playin dangerous

erm, obviously I need a "time out" (cough) **chuckles

Note: No statements made in this post are to be taken to heart by persons unfamiliar with the antics of the poster

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Just like a man! I declare - fiddily dee..

[Sally]

Evan seems to be trying to get into trouble now (he likes the bad boy image today - tomorrow who knows).

Almost forgetting the topic, I have to agree with the simple answer by Elizabeth.

If it wasn't, how would we know that we are transsexuals? Did one of your parents teach you to be feminine while the other taught you to be masculine? I don't think so.

My therapist refers to it on a sliding scale and refers to "how feminine you are wired". In my case, she wondered how I ever passed for masculine - I am the Master Theseian!

We are born with certain traits both physical and mental, male and female, if the majority of them align and match your birth gender - congratulations (I don't know who that was to - they aren't on this site) otherwise you're transgendered.

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest Evan_J]

erm....lack of food?....

<--ate, slept, and is now contrite bringing E-perfume.

....sorry