Does the right wing have a point(may upset people)

[Guest KimberlyF]

So women do not have a right to change in their locker rooms without being gawked at by people who are not legally nor ID as female all of the time?

Funny, it almost sounds like you're insinuating that all crossdressers like "to gawk at people" in locker rooms...

I'm insinuating nothing of the sort and I'll come right out and state that it is in fact not my belief.

Is that a yes or a no to the question I asked?

Edited September 9, 2013 by KimberlyF
Corrected quoting boxes at request of poster.

[Guest KimberlyF]

Bonus question to people backing the law...which bathroom and locker room should a young 15 yo Ru Paul use?

[Guest EvaO]

So women do not have a right to change in their locker rooms without being gawked at by people who are not legally nor ID as female all of the time?

Funny, it almost sounds like you're insinuating that all crossdressers like "to gawk at people" in locker rooms...

I'm insinuating nothing of the sort and I'll come right out and state that it is in fact not my belief.

Is that a yes or a no to the question I asked?

Thanks for clearing that up, Kimberly. Not sure if you're specifically asking me, but, my answer would be yes, people of any gender have the right to not be non-consensually gawked at, in any space or situation.

[Guest KimberlyF]

Hypothetical situation...if a guy said he was a girl according to this new law, and he sat in the locker room and just looked, which existing law would that break?

[Drea]

I find the refusal and complete denial by much of the trans community that an overly broad laws can be (and have been) exploited is ignoring a reality and legitimate concern that could otherwise be easily addressed. As such it open the doors for the critics and cause harm for those who have legitimate medical needs.

[Guest Kelly-087]

Bonus question to people backing the law...which bathroom and locker room should a young 15 yo Ru Paul use?

Mens..

Ru Paul is just a famous and awesome drag queen.

[JenniferB]

I'm in agreement that there should be some restrictions, unless an establishment clearly states otherwise (ex:nudist colony). I really don't have a problem with cross-dressers using the restroom they present. If some sick person goes into the restroom to cause trouble, they would do it anyway whether there was a law against cross-dressing or not. The law would not be a deterrent.

As for locker rooms, that should be restricted to what sex the genitals show, at least the shower area. That’s common sense.

Jenny

[Guest LizMarie]

A law affirming the rights of trans individuals does not:

1. invalidate laws against rape

2. invalidate laws against assault

3. invalidate laws against murder

4. invalidate laws against indecent exposure

5. invalidate laws against voyeurism

If corrections need to be made, they should be made to those laws, not to laws that simply affirm basic rights of transgender individuals. If laws concerning those specific crimes are not sufficiently precise, fix those laws.

[Guest]

A law affirming the rights of trans individuals does not:

1. invalidate laws against rape

2. invalidate laws against assault

3. invalidate laws against murder

4. invalidate laws against indecent exposure

5. invalidate laws against voyeurism

If corrections need to be made, they should be made to those laws, not to laws that simply affirm basic rights of transgender individuals. If laws concerning those specific crimes are not sufficiently precise, fix those laws.

Also, when in Rome, act like a Romewoman. Sit down, take a load off, don't pee on the seat or sticky the floor. Wipe the sink when your done. If you are sporting a beard, stand closer to your razor. Don't dress like a slob, other girls notice. The sounds you hear are the sound you should make. Forgive me if I don't make conversation, I'm only here to relieve Nature's pressing issues. That's all in the Lady's Room Etiquette Handbook. Giggle. Jody

[Guest Sarah Faith]

A law affirming the rights of trans individuals does not:

1. invalidate laws against rape

2. invalidate laws against assault

3. invalidate laws against murder

4. invalidate laws against indecent exposure

5. invalidate laws against voyeurism

If corrections need to be made, they should be made to those laws, not to laws that simply affirm basic rights of transgender individuals. If laws concerning those specific crimes are not sufficiently precise, fix those laws.

Yes but do the laws really need to be so broad that all someone simply has to do is say "I identify as a woman/man" to have access to said bathroom? We are to just assume that because someone says they are transgender with out anything to back it up that they should be given a free pass? There does need to be more situational definitions just saying gender identity gives you a free pass into all gender specific spaces is a bit too broad. I don't care what ones gender identity is that doesn't really mean its appropriate for a pre-op transwoman to march into a girls shower and proudly display their junk.

Not all transpeople are good, OR honest. Colleen Francis for example was neither, and this community rushed to her defense because we make the assumption that anyone who identifies with us is an honest person. We really need to understand that not everyone who claims they are transgender will necessarily be telling the truth, and not everyone who actually is transgender is going to be a righteous upstanding citizen. Being able to flaunt your junk in the Womens shower isn't a right.. a right is being able to walk down the street with out being beaten to death for being who you are.. a right is being able to go to the store and buy food and products with out being charged differently or kicked out just for being who you are.

Giving someone who just claims they are transgender with out so much as a basic diagnoses from a therapist, or allowing a pre-op transsexual or even a crossdresser access to the womens showers where they will be on full display just because we feel we have a right to be there is called going overboard.. A pre-op transwomans right to shower in a gender appropriate space does not override a cis-womans right to not have to see male genitalia.

I'm not saying we should have random searches in bathrooms to verify a persons sex, I am simply saying if you act like a moron in the bathroom because you marched in dressed like a pro-wrestler just saying "Yo I feel like a woman" is a silly standard for allowing that person access.. If we are going to do that lets just have unisex bathrooms and get rid of gender specific spaces entirely.

[Guest KathleenMarie27]

Sarah you could not be more right, this idea that all trans people are angels is about as obsurd as thinking all Republicans want to kill babies

[Guest Jenni_S]

Aside from Colleen Francis, I seem to recall, just this year, one Alexis Starr at Leeds University, declaring they were a woman, their entire presentation consisting of putting on a wig that didn't cover their own hair, and proceeding to use the women's room, which didn't sit well with those in the restroom, for some reason. And Ally Robledo in Idaho, who presented female, that was using the toilet while facing it and standing up, making things rather obvious. As long as people continue to do things to make the other occupants of the women's room uncomfortable, this will continue to happen. And as long as a community continues to defend anyone period, regardless of their effect on other people, they will not be fully accepted. You're going to use the women's room? Fine, do so in a way that doesn't attract attention and make others in the room uncomfortable. Just because you may have the right to do so, does not make your rights better than anyone else's. making a scene in a restroom and then declaring your right to do so gives just that impression.

[Guest KimberlyF]

Bonus question to people backing the law...which bathroom and locker room should a young 15 yo Ru Paul use?

Mens..

Ru Paul is just a famous and awesome drag queen.

Part of the reason this law needed to be passed was because the risk someone would get beaten or harassed in the other bathroom. So Ru Paul would somehow be safe from this in the men's room?

[Guest KathleenMarie27]

Again, then, does the right wing have a point, I believe they do, and I believe their fears are justified to an extent. We will have a much easier time acquiring the rights we need if we also say that we dont agree with the all or nothing.

[Guest KimberlyF]

So women do not have a right to change in their locker rooms without being gawked at by people who are not legally nor ID as female all of the time?

Funny, it almost sounds like you're insinuating that all crossdressers like "to gawk at people" in locker rooms...

I'm insinuating nothing of the sort and I'll come right out and state that it is in fact not my belief.

Is that a yes or a no to the question I asked?

Thanks for clearing that up, Kimberly. Not sure if you're specifically asking me, but, my answer would be yes, people of any gender have the right to not be non-consensually gawked at, in any space or situation.

Then what is the existing law in California that would prevent a guy from saying he's a girl and sitting in a locker room and just taking mental snapshots?

[Guest LizMarie]

Again, then, does the right wing have a point, I believe they do, and I believe their fears are justified to an extent. We will have a much easier time acquiring the rights we need if we also say that we dont agree with the all or nothing.

KathleenMarie,

You are arguing for required identification of trans people to just use the bathroom. Ok, let me tell you about a a young FTM here in Houston. He was thrown from his home onto the streets by his parents. He had not yet finished high school so had zero saleable skills. His discussions with Texas Child Protective Services made it clear that the bureaucrats in his neck of the woods would not honor his gender expression. He did not have the money to even survive without turning to prostitution, let along to get "proper documents" (which none of you have defined, by the way).

CPS moved to have this young man forced into their custody to be placed in foster care as a girl. This caused this young man so much distress that he did something irrevocable. And efforts by local GLBT support groups to try to stop CPS in the courts failed because we have no such protective laws here in Texas at the state level.

So he killed himself.

Read that again.

So he killed himself.

Now, when you and every other proponent of "papers, please" style arguments can come up with a way that this young man could have been guaranteed a way to get his "documentation" regardless of ability to pay, maybe I will listen.

But I refuse to listen to the argument that Colleen Francis is so horrible that we have to instead see young trans folk commit suicide just to assuage your peace of mind.

How much blood is your "papers, please" argument worth? You can start by trying to wash the blood of that young man off your hands and off the hands of every single proponent of restrictions. Because none of you have identified what papers are "good enough" nor have you identified how the particularly disadvantaged trans youth are going to be able to get said papers.

And until you do, I'm going to say not one more death is worth your position. You can conjure up your Colleen Francis arguments and I'm going to say not one more trans youth suicide is worth stopping those Colleen Francis moments until your proposal completely and fairly handles such trans youth.

And while you think about that, just remember...

And so he killed himself.

Compare that to your Colleen Francis moments and come up with a better solution than just "papers, please". And make sure that the radical right wing extremists understand that this has to be taxpayer funded too, for those kids who cannot otherwise afford to pay.

[Guest KimberlyF]

I don't see a whole lot of people taking the pro-suicide position here. I may have missed it. I have seen people pushing young people to come out and live an authentic life who are still dependent on their parents which can start the ball rolling on a tragic event like the above.

There are also post-op and people who live legally as the sex they ID as who have killed themselves. Nobody has any clue what demons everyone is living with.

And 'papers please' is a red herring as usual. This involves the school system. They have confidential files on all the kids. Can a male who IDs as male walk into the woman's room in Cal? What would happen in that situation? I'm guessing there would be a report to the people in charge. The people in charge should know who has access to what, correct? Or should he just be allowed in so that no TG person has to suffer the indignity of 'papers please'?

[Guest KathleenMarie27]

I am sorry but attemtping to guilt me or others who think as I do into a position of we must let all common sense go makes you even worse then the people who blatantly oppose trans people in general. While I am sorry to hear about this young man the plain truth is that people will always slip between the cracks, from what I understand texas has many areas will solid bathroom laws allowing transgender peoole bathroom access.

Your blood argument does nothing to sway my position and only makes me look upon you with pity that you feel you need to resort to some kind of emotional blackmail.

Suicide is never the answer, as to the homeless aspect, this is something that the trans community deals with, im sorry but its just the facts, being transgender is not a choice, however accepting someone who is transgender is.

It seems to me that many in this community are so obsessed with winning that they forget that you can win battles and lose the war.

This bill has emboldened the far right more then gay marriage, this bill has put in jepordy the genda bill thath as made it ouof committee with bi partisan support.

Im sorry but I need a job much more then I need a bathroom.

Ill end this post with this. I take extreme offense to the above suicide post and while I knew this topic might be controversial, to say that I or anyone want people to die is as low as low can get.

[Guest Jenni_S]

Seconded.

[Guest KimberlyF]

Ill end this post with this. I take extreme offense to the above suicide post and while I knew this topic might be controversial, to say that I or anyone want people to die is as low as low can get.

Pure chocolate covered awesomeness.

[Guest]

I wish to make one more comment before I back out of this argument because neither side is swayed by either, therefore not engaging in any constructive purpose.

I wonder if the people that have the feeling that we need restrictions have have suffered the indignity in the ladies room of having others judge them and making life difficult for them? That is the probable personal indignity that will probably move them from their position. Not the debate here.

I was working in an office as a volunteer that shared a ladies room with three departments. Two older women took it upon themselves to go to their supervisory team and complain about me using the restroom. I am legally female, for some time now living only as female, completely dressing the part with a totally female presentation. They operated on their own assumptions that I was something other than qualified as a female. Truth be told, I am genetically female (intersexed) the only marker they had is the fact that I'm a large frame girl. My supervisory team brought to my attention just so I would have knowledge of that. I did feel some empathy for their discomfort though completely unfounded, so I volunteered to use the public ladies room in the other portion of the building. I was instructed to do as I do without any remorse, that the first step is for their supervisory team to take action which they refused. My supervisory team was well prepared to contest that. Who does that for the less fortunate? Restrictive and unnessasary lawmaking, demanding you are so different from me that you need restrictions for me?

The second thing that I did in hopes of bolstering their comfort was, if I saw them going to the ladies room together I would usually take a moment to go have a cigarette or do something else. Later on when they actually got to know me, it was a complete nonissue. Yet I had to suffer through the emotions internally that others felt I was some form of second class citizen or subhuman.

If I were to find another person on the restroom that claim to be trans but did not present well, I may be so bold as to go and talk to that person outside of the ladies room about how discomforting their presentation is. If they tell me to take an aerial fornication of a rotating pastry, then oh well. I would've made my best effort to support our cause, not rah rahing segregation. I can only do my part in my community help educate other people and to become socially acceptable to as many as possible, debating it here does nothing for my community and my personal life. Jody

[Guest EvaO]

I wish to make one more comment before I back out of this argument because neither side is swayed by either, therefore not engaging in any constructive purpose.

Thank you! No one is having a conversation, it seems. People are either rooting for each other as if it's a basketball game or getting overly aggressive (not the healthy kind of aggressive). If I want this, I'll just read article comments on Yahoo.

[Guest KimberlyF]

I wish to make one more comment before I back out of this argument because neither side is swayed by either, therefore not engaging in any constructive purpose.

I wonder if the people that have the feeling that we need restrictions have have suffered the indignity in the ladies room of having others judge them and making life difficult for them? That is the probable personal indignity that will probably move them from their position. Not the debate here.

I was working in an office as a volunteer that shared a ladies room with three departments. Two older women took it upon themselves to go to their supervisory team and complain about me using the restroom. I am legally female, for some time now living only as female, completely dressing the part with a totally female presentation. They operated on their own assumptions that I was something other than qualified as a female. Truth be told, I am genetically female (intersexed) the only marker they had is the fact that I'm a large frame girl. My supervisory team brought to my attention just so I would have knowledge of that. I did feel some empathy for their discomfort though completely unfounded, so I volunteered to use the public ladies room in the other portion of the building. I was instructed to do as I do without any remorse, that the first step is for their supervisory team to take action which they refused. My supervisory team was well prepared to contest that. Who does that for the less fortunate? Restrictive and unnessasary lawmaking, demanding you are so different from me that you need restrictions for me?

The second thing that I did in hopes of bolstering their comfort was, if I saw them going to the ladies room together I would usually take a moment to go have a cigarette or do something else. Later on when they actually got to know me, it was a complete nonissue. Yet I had to suffer through the emotions internally that others felt I was some form of second class citizen or subhuman.

If I were to find another person on the restroom that claim to be trans but did not present well, I may be so bold as to go and talk to that person outside of the ladies room about how discomforting their presentation is. If they tell me to take an aerial fornication of a rotating pastry, then oh well. I would've made my best effort to support our cause, not rah rahing segregation. I can only do my part in my community help educate other people and to become socially acceptable to as many as possible, debating it here does nothing for my community and my personal life. Jody

So you are legally female and yet these two women asked you for papers proving it?

[Guest KimberlyF]

I wish to make one more comment before I back out of this argument because neither side is swayed by either, therefore not engaging in any constructive purpose.

Thank you! No one is having a conversation, it seems. People are either rooting for each other as if it's a basketball game or getting overly aggressive (not the healthy kind of aggressive). If I want this, I'll just read article comments on Yahoo.

I have yet to not address a question asked directly to me. I believe I still have a few unanswered. I love conversations

[Guest KathleenMarie27]

I created this topic to speak to the fact that there is disagreement on this issue as well as others inside not only this small website, but throughout the community at large. It is tiresome to have to continue to explain to people who know me as trans that just because I have this condition does not mean that I follow in lockstep with the group. All to often people make assumptions based on the language that they hear. The loudest voices in this community do not represent how I feel, yet I am grouped together simply because I identify as transgender.

It is high time that the "elders" and leaders of the trans community respect the fact that trans people come from all walks of life. Being trans is not a political designation. I am a Christian, I am a republican, I am a father, a husband, a person. Non of this however defines me.

It is trully disconcerting that people think I am things that I am not based on the voices of a few trans people who I never gave permission to to represent me or my interests.

It was my hope that creating this tooic would show others that while yes I have the same basic goals in mind, the way that I and others feel about how it is being implemented is not the same as those who "speak for me"

As to bathroom discomfort, I have experienced this many times and am sure I will experience it again. Using the bathroom is not a god given right.