I fear I am decieving myself, but I may be IS

[Guest Mrs Brisby]

Alright, I've been avoiding this for a long time, but after talking to family and my doctor, its really been eating my lunch big time, and I've been going back looking over things and researching things and more and more it seems like there is something to this.

However, I equally feel I could very well merely be decieving myself over this. I recognize that this is a thing. Ive seen others do it. I worry that somehow I'm only seeing what I want to see in some way of having validation or more self acceptance? Hell, I don't know. I really don't know anymore.

But honestly, my internal gut feelings flipped over from 'unsure' to 'maybe so', so thats what this is. This may be a long post, sorry if it is, I'm really just wanting to lay out all the information on this which makes me think theres something to it. If anyone things I'm wrong, please say so.

I kind of want to mention that Ive been under the presumption that I'm transsexual since I was about 20 y/o. I've had gender identity problems since I was a little kid, and they never ever went away. I transitioned at 22 years old, and have been on HRT for the last 12 years. With the exception of SRS I've fully integrated into my new life, and generally speaking everything is okay.

Okay, onto the stuff related to the topic.

Puberty didn't hit me like other boys. It really became a problem for me in my early high school years, because of state education rules, I had to have a credit hour of P.E. class, and that meant having to wear a uniform and change in front of others. I tried at first, but the other boys harrassed the hell out of me, and called me a girl, grabbing my chest, and making fun of my genitals.

I soon learned to stop going to school. Eventually I dropped out and got my GED. By the time I transitioned at 22 years old I still had no body hair, very little facial hair, no adams apple, not a deep voice, and very small genitals. ( I hate bringing that up but its a diagnostic point. :/ )

Another detail I think I should add, though mind you I'm not exactly happy to admit this but from about 18 to 22, I slept with a number of girls, and honestly there should have been plenty of chances for some of them to get pregnant but none ever did.

My first doctor who saw me for HRT did a full physical on me and kept asking me if I had been taking HRT already. She acted like I was lying when I said, no. She said I already had breast tissue.

Another thing, as a comparison, my older brothers are all shorter than I am, and much hairier. Like, by the time they were my age when I transitioned, they were turning into wookies.

Now, I talked to a doctor recently about all this and she things it sounds like an AR gene thing. I don't know. Thats what this looks like. How can I possibly test for this?

I dont know, what do you think? Should I get tested? I live on disability now, and only get Medicare, I dont know if that'll cover a gene test. I dont even know why I feel I need to know. I worry that I'll get tested and it will be negative. Why the hell should I worry about that? I dont know. God I feel crazy talking about this. This is really driving me nuts.

[Charlize]

Please don't feel bad about sharing this feeling and your thoughts. I cannot give you any great decisions or insights. I'm not an Md. I can say that i understand why you would want to get some answers. If a gene test might give you comfort….go for it as you can. I would think that your doctor would assist you. It sounds however that you have found comfort in who you are. I hope you can maintain that acceptance. Even if we don't know reasons being able to accept ourselves is the most important thing. It is the only way we can find peace.

Hugs,

Charlie

[Guest Mrs Brisby]

I feel totally insane right now. My sense of self is totally messed up. I cant say why. I feel like im losing my mind. Thankfully I see my therapist in 2 days time lol.

[Guest ~Brenda~]

I think it is very natural to want to understand every dimension of who you are. You are not crazy and I would recommend to find out what testing can be done and covered by your insurance to close on the question of IS or AR. I think that knowing will help you to better understand yourself and help put all the pieces into place.

I am glad to hear that you are working with a therapist and doctors.

You should have answers. You deserve answers.

Love

Brenda

[Drea]

As you make reference to when you say "seen others doing it" referring to deceiving themselves, I have to agree and there are plenty of trans peeps who latch onto the idea of being intersex and have no more evidence than virtually any trans person. I think it is about having a justification for purposes of explaining to family...or in some cases to make themselves better or more valid than other trans.

My father has a philosophy when it comes to medical tests. He challenges the doctor with "What do you do with the result of this test? Can you fix the problem if it shows a problem or use it to identify another problems?" If the answer isn't definitive he doesn't let them do the test. If it is a "cause we want to know how well it is working" sort of thing but they can't do anything he says no.

I have a friend. He was always very short growing up. His dad was very tall. When he started driving the police would pull him over thinking he wasn't licensed because he looked like a 12 year old. It wasn't till he was in college, 20 or 21 that he suddenly shot up, was not extremely tall like his dad but certainly a bit taller than average and started to look his age.

Everyone is a bit different and what you experienced may mean you are intersex.

Of course there is the curiosity factor so you could get tested, but what test? A genetic test may show an abnormality, but maybe there is nothing there and you have some vestigial organs even if outwardly you body is one way.

Applying the standards my dad has for medical tests, if the result of the test got you better coverage for your condition, it may be worth it. If there were vestigial organs or abnormalities that might need treatment cause they pose some risk, there is another reason. People do have, intersex or not, that have abnormalities which get discovered thru the course of their life. Some may even have been life threatening while others are unusual but otherwise harmless.

If there is a medical justification talk with your doctor.

I also note that trans peeps often read so much into being intersex. For example I saw a TV show once about a trans person. This person's story was that they never ever had a feeling they were trans, thought themselves male as their body was and then one day during a medical test the doctor discovered there was apparently a vestigial. It was at this point the person knew they were really female and started transitioning. Intersex is intersex and it means some of both, how one vestigial organ outweighs fully developed body outwardly male, I just don't know.

In a way, all trans can claim to be intersex cause the brain, an organ isn't fully developed to the birth gender of their body.

So that is how I see it all, if you want to satisfy curiosity by all means. Otherwise discuss with your doctor the situation, what the doctor thinks and if there is any medical benefit to finding out.

[Guest N. Jane]

If there is an AR gene variation, only a full DNA sequence will show it and that is rather expensive.

[Guest LizMarie]

The only thing I can say is that some of your physical symptoms are similar to people who are born with Klinefelter's syndrome (XXY). I believe that can be tested for reasonably easily though. You might suggest this to your physician as a line of inquiry as well.

Klinefelter's babies are generally born male, though they've begun finding female XXY cases too recently. Almost all of them experience fertility issues, either of low sperm count or being totally infertile. They often have breast tissue, a more pear shaped physical body, low to no body hair, and less developed genitals.

If I were in your shoes and curious, that's what I would pursue. As Drea notes, a formal diagnosis may assist in your health care in various ways, so it's at least useful to resolve the question.

[Guest chargrl1]

well my last post went up before I was ready, I hit a wrong key or something. As I was about to say, even if your insurance is trans inclusive, it is not likely to cover genetic testing as that sort of procedure is not something that is normally covered for anyone.

[Guest HughE]

One way of answering your question would be to figure out whether you have eunuchoid proportions. A eunuchoid body structure indicates that you had below normal male levels of testosterone during childhood and puberty, and is something that's usually associated with intersex conditions. It consists of having:

* long, slender arms and legs

* legs that are significantly longer than the height of your upper body (the two should be about equal in men)

* an armspan 3cm or more greater than your height

* sparse or very fine body hair

* a female pubic hair pattern (like an upside down triangle and confined to the pubic region)

* youthful, feminine looking facial features

* an inability to build upper body muscle

* gynecomastica

perhaps you might have a female digit ratio and a female carrying angle too.

Basically you end up with a body structure that's more like the female members of your family than the male ones.

Since you didn't transition until 22, you'd almost certainly have stopped growing by that point, so the body structure you have now will be the same as it was then (apart from things like body hair and pubic hair, can be affected by any hormones you're currently taking.

[Guest Mrs Brisby]

Me and my mother took measurements and came up with....

76" arm spam, that is arms spread out, from finger tip to tip.

71" height.

34" from floor to top of inner thigh.

28" from shoulder to top of thigh.

19" shoulder width

19" hip width

Also everything else you mentioned is going on, though not sure what you mean by carrying angle, but D2 and D4 ratio is perfectly even on both hands. :/

[Guest Mrs Brisby]

Okay, going to go get a karyotype this monday when my doctor gets back in town. Might as well start by knocking out the most likely cause first. This all still feels quite surreal.

[Guest sally-jane]

i was the same as you when i when to my gp about me and she said have i been taking het as i look to female her own words and i havent even started yet so im being tested for xxy when i see the gic next month aswell so i do know what you mean

hope you get what your looking for

take care sally xx

[Guest HughE]

Going on those measurements, it certainly sounds like you have eunuchoid proportions (especially having an armspan so much greater than your height). Good luck with your karyotyping, hopefully it'll provide you with a final answer as to why you're trans.

In my case, I was able to rule out all the usual genetic intersex conditions (Klinefelters, Kallman's, PAIS), and eventually narrowed down the likely cause as being a hormone exposure incident during the second trimester of my mother's pregnancy with me. Hopefully what I think happened in my particular case is uncommon, but basically any significant exposure to synthetic hormones (or any drug that blocks testosterone production for that matter) during the second or third trimester is likely to produce similar effects. Testosterone plays a crucial role in driving male development, and if you prevent it from being produced during the second or third trimester, you end up with a baby who looks male but has a brain that isn't fully masculinised (and often ends up overwhelmingly female it seems!).

The earliest widely used synthetic hormone was an artificial estrogen called diethylstilbestrol or DES. During it's heyday, DES was the standard treatment all over the world in cases where the mother was thought to be at risk of experiencing a miscarriage or premature birth, and millions of pregnant women were given it during the 35 years or so it was in vogue. I've spent the last couple of years trying to find out as much as I can about "DES sons", and the impression I get is that the majority of MTF transsexuals in my age range are, whether they know it or not, DES babies. One thing I was quite surprised to discover is that, along with hormone problems, impaired fertility and high rates of gender dysphoria, a third or more of DES sons seem to have intersex-related genital abnormalities (often quite major abnormalities requiring multiple surgeries too), and yet the public's been kept completely in the dark about the whole thing.

DES was largely withdrawn from use 40 years ago, but if one of these hormone treatments can interfere with normal male development, then it's likely that others can too. If your karyotyping draws a blank, one other possible explanation might be that your mother had problems during her pregnancy with you and was given hormone treatment as a result.

There's two treatments I know of in current use that I think are highly likely to be capable of interfering with brain masculinisation. One is Proluton Depot, a weekly intramuscular injection intended to reduce the likelihood of the mother experiencing a premature birth. That one's usually started between 16 and 21 weeks after conception and continued for the remainder of the pregnancy. The other involves an injection of a long-acting corticosteroid (dexamethasone or betamethasone) to promote lung maturation in the fetus, which is given if the mother's thought to be at imminent risk of giving birth prematurely. The protective effect on the lungs is only shortlived though, so in problem pregnancies the treatment can end up being repeated several times over. It's usually given between 26 weeks and 35 weeks after conception I think.