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Janet Mock on "Passing"


Guest LizMarie

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I share her basic idea, but have gotten into too many arguments over the years on this topic to think we will ever have Pan Trans* buy in for it. Furthermore deponent saith not!

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I have mixed emotions about her views. I have no problem with the term "accepted," or with any other term to substitute for "passing," However, I don't think she has a real appreciation for what most of us have to contend with, or how we feel about ourselves. She mentions that when she walks down the street, she is taken for a cis woman until the moment she tells someone she is trans. I can see that it would not be an issue for her or for any transwoman who looks like her. For most of us, however, it is rarely an assumption we can make. Whatever you care to call it, I can only wish I could afford Mock's self assurance.

Carolyn Marie

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I didn't see anyplace in that vid where acceptance was referenced.

I agree with the first part of the video, but then she wraps up with imaging how those who don't have the conditional privilege of passing which I take her meaning to be not having the choice of being out or not. So in the end she perpetuates passing and the lets have pity on those who don't pass.

I am not a big fan of this passing stuff like she says as far as what the term suggests by fooling people. Yet the term is hard to get away from as it describes a very real struggle many either have or perceive they have being recognized as they feel they are.

What I object to is how her comments about those who don't have the "privilege" of being passable. As if it is something many can't obtain which feeds the whole, for want of a better term, perpetuates the "non-passing" subclass of trans people. Those who never can and never will pass. And indirectly feeds the perceptions so many have that the problems stem from not being able to pass.

At the macro level most understand that passing is mostly in the mind but deep down there are those insecurities that eat at individuals. For MTF these might be things like one is too tall, too big, too masculine features, deep voice, etc. Yet these things are far more relevant to internal self perception than external. Sure some of those may cause someone to wonder, but that can even happen to non-trans people. What really cements it is how one acts and interacts socially. In some ways that is the hardest to change, yet it is something within everyone's power to change. And for people transitioning there is always the learning phase, it isn't flipping a switch, but it is temporary state, one of....well transition.

Still trans focus primarily on physical traits when it comes to their beliefs as to how others will see them. And then in an ironic fashion, to solve the problem for those don't (and won't ever pass) fight for awareness with the consequence that people are all the more likely to suspect one with some unusual physical traits as trans regardless of them being trans or not making it even harder if that person's desire is not to be viewed as trans first.

Carolyn mentions Janet Monk's self assurance and that such is not an assumption most of us can't make. Why not? Cause most don't "pass" as well as her? Cause she has some beauty? Cause we who are much more attuned to the average person can't easily mark her than we could see markers in ourselves or many other trans that make us think trans?

I think we are our own worst critics. We are stuck with a past, we are stuck with slow changes and all too often see that past person. Or we think about what it takes us to look good and think it is easier for others. Or we never fufill some internal image we had for ourselves.

Self assurance comes from within. It isn't something others give us and too easily fall in the habit of thought about our own problem areas and too often turn to the external to provide validation as if that creates the assurance rather than finding it where it needs to come from which is inside.

I've seen people who looked great but beat themselves up constantly and felt they needed this or that surgery to fix perceived problems and didn't feel they passed and I have met others who had plenty going against them but the assurance, the confidence and did fine.

Now where to find that assurance and confidence? How to change how one feels inside about themselves to bring that out? I think that is the real challenge.

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Guest Amanda Whyte

Well, I agree with Carolyn Marie. When I walk down the street, or into a store, I just live my life. However, I have to keep in mind that most people can tell I am trans because if I dont I can get into some very bad situations. I am content to be accepted but I still have to keep in mind that people know that I am trans. Janet doesnt have to do that as much. There is a distinct difference.

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Guest CassieX

Real is, as real is.

The whole passing discussion, or how authentic you are goes hand in hand with the medias brainwashing of what it is to be a woman so I would agree with Janet in saying that I am me and am not passing as anything other than myself.

If I have a bad hair day, or feel self conscious about my facial hair the day before en electrolysis appointment I just go to somewhere like Walmart and look around. Yup, lots of woman wandering around, living their daily lives with way more perceived problems than I do. Spandex out to be illegal on some people :lol:

Cassie

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Ok I need to step in here and speak my mind... I think some of you need to take a step back and consider a few things. Yes I know that some of you feel animosity towards trans women who can "pass" because you don't see yourself being able to do the same, I think you need to dig deep and ask yourselves why you have a problem with that. Sure this Janet Mock woman may have no idea what your struggles are like, but then again you don't know what she went through either. For some of you no matter what you do you will not pass as a cis woman, so for you the word "passing" is a bad word... *insert numerous philosophical and political reasons for it being bad here*. And for the most part I do agree with you that we put too much emphasis on "passing" and that simply accepting ourselves and living our lives is more important. Sure no arguments there. But here is where we diverge and I think you need to consider some things.

You need to understand that we all have different backgrounds, different struggles and different goals when transitioning. For some the desire to "pass" as a cis woman is not only intense but also feasible. Just because you cannot see yourself being able to pass is no reason whatsoever to dissuade someone from trying to pass as a cis woman in their day to day lives. If they wish to cover up their past then that is their prerogative and I think we should respect that and help them where we can. Is that not the entire purpose of the "passing forums"?

I see too much animosity towards the "young and pretty" group of transsexual women from those in the community that don't fit that description... we need to simply accept the fact that in the passing department not all of us are equal and that we need to come to terms with it. We need to be a community united not divided over petty things like this... if this continues you are going to alienate the portion of trans women who do pass and then you will lose their support. Please do not let it come to that.

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Guest Amanda Whyte

I dont hold any animosity toward Janet because of her looks, envy yes, animosity no. I was just making a comment in regards to her take on passing. I agree with you that we dont need to look for reasons to dislike each other but I think a healthy debate about various topics are helpful. I dont shoot for passing anymore, I just go for acceptable. Actually a few times, I have "passed" and it does bring a smile to my face so I cant say it isnt on my mind but it would be nice to be my choice to tell people and not just automatically known due to my looks.

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  • Forum Moderator

I think I would agree with LizMarie on this and not get too engrossed with detail. Ok so you pass - is that once, now and then or always! To me acceptance is far more important. You are accepted as a person. I know some will see 'passing' as an end goal and I even think about it but in the end it is a hurdle which in the whole scheme of things is far less important than acceptance.

Tracy x

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  • Admin

Yes I know that some of you feel animosity towards trans women who can "pass" because you don't see yourself being able to do the same, I think you need to dig deep and ask yourselves why you have a problem with that.

I see too much animosity towards the "young and pretty" group of transsexual women from those in the community that don't fit that description... we need to simply accept the fact that in the passing department not all of us are equal and that we need to come to terms with it.

If you are referring to my comment, I think you read into it far more than what is stated or intended. I had minor issues with what she said, not who she is or what she looks like. I admire those who have such beauty, and feel no animosity towards them whatsoever. I just have a problem when someone like her says she represents me and knows how I feel, or should feel. Yes, the young will inherit the earth. And someday, they, too, will know how it feels to be old.

BTW, a 20-something colleague at the museum told me recently that she couldn't believe I was older than 45. :D Ah, the wisdom of youth!

LOL!

Carolyn Marie

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No I wasn't talking about any one comment in particular, I was talking about the general direction of the thread. I just want to make sure we all keep it friendly and positive around here... yes the subject of passing is a touchy one. But to be frank I don't like the "anti passing" attitude and the reason is that to those who wish to "pass" it sounds like an attack on them, and we wouldn't want them to think that. We need to come to terms with the fact that some people within our community wish to live in stealth and we should respect that and help them as best we can. I think sometimes this desire to be stealth is taken as an attack on the rest of the trans community who either doesn't want to go stealth or cant... and I simply don't see it that way, if that is what they want then they want it for their own personal reasons and who are we to judge that?

And Carolyn Marie, what a nice comment from your colleague!! :D

People tell me I look like a 17 year old guy all the time, and it elicits the opposite reaction, more like... "no I am almost 26, I got my masters degree 2 years ago and I manage the IT department of a multi million dollar company, now hand me back my ID and please go take a long walk off a short pier..." except I am nice so I don't actually say that. I am just hoping that one day I stop looking like a 17 year old guy and start looking like a 26 year old woman, but that is a tough thing to do!!

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  • Root Admin

What is passing anyway? Do we have to look like Miss America before that happens? I've seen women with a face that would stop a clock and they have no problem passing. Attitude and being accepted is more important. There's a lot more to passing than just looks.

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What is passing anyway? Do we have to look like Miss America before that happens? I've seen women with a face that would stop a clock and they have no problem passing. Attitude and being accepted is more important. There's a lot more to passing than just looks.

Being perceived as naturally female like any other woman would be... that is the answer, it isn't about "beauty", it is about looking "naturally female". I totally agree with you that attitude and acceptance is more important but we shouldn't be looking down on those who *are concerned with looks... most cis women are concerned with their looks, why would trans women be any different? It is doubly difficult for trans women because it is hard for us to *look female and not looking female can be a major blow to some peoples self esteem. Sure some of us will never look fully female and these people need to learn to cope with that and move on with their lives. But to those who do have a chance of being seen as naturally female then who are we to tell them they are wrong for wanting that?

These are the possibilities the way I see it:

1. You either don't want to live in stealth or you can't but you have come to terms with it and have moved on with your life.... awesome more power to you!

2. You either don't want to live in stealth or you can't but you have *not come to terms with it.... what can we do to help you accept yourself and move on with your life? (although it needs to be the individual to decide whether they can or can't live in stealth, it is not our place to say such things).

3. You live in stealth and pass as a natural woman in your day to day life... awesome more power to you! (this would be Janet Mock)

4. You could feasibly live in stealth and pass as a natural woman and you want to, but you don't know how yet.... what can we do to help you achieve that goal?

Every time someone posts in this sub forum and asks "Do I pass? I need suggestions and opinions" I think we all know EXACTLY what they mean with that question, politics and philosophy aside we understand the question... yet inevitably someone comes along and politely tells them they shouldn't be concerned with passing and that they are awesome the way they are...and then starts the whole "I don't like the term passing anyway" conversation. Come on! Who are we to tell them they shouldn't be concerned with "passing"? And if *they thought they were awesome they way they are why would they bother transitioning in the first place?

I think we need to support those who wish to "pass" and help them in their journey, and if we don't agree or don't wish to help them then we really shouldn't comment on their post. I know that's not really what this thread was about but the subject of this thread brought this up and and it is always something that bothered me.

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  • Forum Moderator

I have to agree that so much of passing is in the way we see ourselves and how we express it. That, not how others see us lets us not only "pass" if we wish or accept ourselves as trans folks openly. When i first started to come out i was desperate to pass. If someone read me i felt terrible and doubted myself. To a great extent that has changed. I seem to pass now or simply ignore any comments as they are obviously speaking about someone else. I am a woman and see myself that way. I am also a trans woman. I have a past and at times i have no trouble speaking about that but it is my decision. I'm not sure where i or the society will be in the future. Change is happening so quickly. It makes my head spin. Even 2 years ago it was rare to see a trans person at all or if seen they were often not the best examples of womanhood. Trans men seemed to have some good spokes people but apart from rare example we were not out there. Hopefully our spokes people will be as attractive and well spoken as Janet. I may not agree with everything she says but the debates are out there not just here.

Hugs,

Charlie

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  • 4 months later...
Guest Lacey Lynne

Agreed! Thanks, Mary Ellen!

Actually, I was all hung up on passing until only recently. The fact is that I basically do not pass particularly well. However, that's okay. By making every effort to be polite, kind and caring out in public, and just showing up day after day at basically the same venues, I've managed to win over many people. It's amazing.

I'm nothing special. You can do this too! Passing? If you can, rock on! If you cannot, go for the gusto which is your life.

People are beginning to "get" transgenderism. Like Harvey Milk said in the 1970s, "Come out!" Yes! Get out and about and just be you.

Peace & Joy :friends: Lacey Lynne

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Guest otter-girl

Im not a fan of the celebrity trans-bandwagon. Lots of arguments as to the good and the bad they do for trans perception. I went off Janet Mock after the Piers Morgan incident which was very badly handled, I thought, and really had the danger of undoing years of positive work by provoking a cis backlash. On the whole I think we are at the stage where transgender positive publicity has the effect of 'normalising' transgender in the eyes of the masses and that if nothing else is the goal.

When I came out to a senior manager the other week at work they gave me the best response I could hope for summed up with a look of what's the big deal then?

I've observed lots of cis-women who aren't good looking, they pass muster because they fit an acceptable box, in fact they fit better than a beautiful person because the jealousy button isn't pressed too. I also think that for us trans-people their jealousy button is also being pressed subconsciously as by trying to be ourselves we also flag their own personal hiding in whatever ways they aren't being true to themselves.

Passing for me is really about the ability to get on with my life without harassment. Im too old to ever become a regulation hottie now. Just like any woman my age I gonna have to choose my battles. No raves n clubs n spilling out onto the streets at 2am. I'll be happy to get by in a nice restaurant or walking in the park or mall or whatever. What I take from Lacey's and others recent posts is - choose your space and own your space. Pass or not its the only space we got.

Hugs

Rachel

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  • 3 weeks later...
Guest ThePhoenix

I'm not pretty. I'm quite plain-looking, but I seem to pass pretty much perfectly. So I get a ton of privileges. The only time I've ever had a bathroom problem was when I got scolded for coming too close to the door of the men's room. If I go to a clothing store, the salespeople fall all over themselves to get me into a fitting room.

But I also spend a lot of time with trans* people. In particular, I spend a lot of time just listening. And I see what a huge difference exists between people who pass well and people who don't. I have trans* friends and acquaintances who have been thrown out of stores for trying on clothing or harassed in restrooms. And I find that incredibly disturbing. I ask myself what is so much superior about me that my identity should be respected and so many others should not? I can't think of anything. It seems to me that people who don't have that privilege have identities just as worthy of respect as mine--or Janet Mock, Kim Petras, or anyone else. And the fact that those identities are not respected is the problem.

So I agree with Janet Mock that no one should have to pass. And authenticity is what's important. But I have always had the sense that she is a privileged person who could benefit from some listening to people who don't share her privilege. It's all well and good to criticize the concept of passing when you can do it with ease. But if she couldn't do it so well, then she'd likely realize it can be much more important to day-to-day life than she seems to think it is.

I think those with passing privilege need to beware of taking it for granted and use it in ways that lift everyone up. Use it to be that voice who is more easily accepted by cispeople--so that you can explain that ALL identities deserve respect, even those outside the binary and those who don't "pass." Use it to ease the way of others by reassuring jittery shopping clerks or escorting someone who doesn't pass into a space like the restroom. Use it to help build a world where passing really isn't necessary anymore. That's my theory, anyway. :)

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  • 2 months later...
Guest noeleena

Hi,

Been a while since last post .

Ill come at this in a very different way and im not sure with many here how they will see this , though youll gather in my way of how i express my self will come over a bit different ,

i dont use pass in my writings other than say i dont pass so you could say i dont pass the test .

Im accepted for who i am not how i look . or dont , take it ether way does not matter ,

Im a female who,s a bit different , not born as a normal female yet still female, now i have disadvantages and advantages, and this is what helps in who i am , as a person first and 2 nd as a female . with some male aspects and even that is not distracting from who i am , as i have found out ,,

Im in the public eye a lot do PR work for our many groups get very involved and a doer , i have responceabilitys that i take on board and enjoy doing them that alone puts me in front of every one with in our groups of 1500 people and who i know others who attend our meetings wether they be commitee or outings and invited or others who just come .

So that being the case how do people then see myself , ???......okay As a normal woman , well i dress as one lovely skirts tops head wear and well just normal as any other woman would, now heres the > ? ... am i one in thier sight,

I really dont know youd have to ask them ,as i sure wont , so what is it about my self that im accepted or that crazzy weird oh well what ever person thing,e some one ...... well iv spoken to many 1000.s of people, and thats not even 10 % of who know me , and i have had people come up to me and say i know you because i saw you , on TVNZ.....

Now heres the thing that so lovely they did not even have to say hi or acknowage me in any way yet they took timwe to do so,

So is this about i have to look the part of how a woman should lets just say as a dresser would and be very convincing ,

NO........ this is about being accepted on the grounds of who i am the way i am and no more than that ,

you all may ..>>>> .??? am i really telling the truth or just making all this up. put my name on the net . see what comes up ,

There are two details here, one is, you accept you for who you are, I did, never a doubt none,,,,,,and allow others to accept you for who you are,.... simple

May be this is just too simple for some, you know what this does work , or maybe im fooling myself and living in some fantasy world iv made up, . you Judge me on that , after you,v tryed it first,

...noeleena...

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  • 3 weeks later...
Guest StickStickley

Ahhhh, I love Janet Mock! Her book was great (Redefining Realness). I agree with her views (in general) on the whole concept of passing.

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Guest ThePhoenix

I have always thought Janet Mock's views on passing are a little bit half baked, but maybe I'm missing something.

She seems to be saying that "passing" is an outmoded concept because it refers to being perceived as something one is not. Since a transwoman is a woman she need not be concerned about ability to "pass" as one.

Okay, fair enough. But a transwoman is not cisgender. And isn't passing about being perceived as cisgender?

I must admit I have not read her book. So if she does have a response to that, I'd be curious about what it is.m

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If we're playing semantics (and I hope we are, words rule), I dislike the phrase "being accepted" more than the word "passing". I get what she's saying about the word passing, but at least with that word there's the comfort in knowing you're being perceived correctly. And the phrase "being accepted" makes me feel as though I'm being perceived as a woman who wants to be a man- like they're accepting me as trans instead of a guy (like she said in the video, when she reveals shes trans she suddenly becomes some sort of oddity).

Anyways, we all just wanna BE, right? That's how I put it. And when I'm worried about passing as who I am on the inside, I find myself using this phrase: "Do I look normal?" I'm just a normal guy on the inside, I want to look like one too.

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