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Article: TERF Wars


Carolyn Marie

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Guest LizMarie

Before this goes too far let me add something - multiple real radical feminists have, without reference to the transgender issue, dissected the positions of the TERFs and demonstrated that most of these people are not radical feminists and many are not feminists at all because they support very traditional gender roles and limitations on those roles. Many TERFs are upset because others are responding to their hate speech as hate speech. TERF groups in Britain have had to move conferences because many venues refused to host them. TERF groups in France have been legally labeled as hate groups and warned.

This article highlights the hypocrisy of TERFs and their supporters crying "censorship" when they are the ones that censor transwomen.

http://www.transadvocate.com/mccarthyistic-trannies-and-golden-cis-tears_n_14970.htm

Basically, they want the "right" to shut down transgender speech but object when people speak back against them.

Opposing intolerance is not itself intolerance. That's a logical fallacy. When trying to figure out who is being intolerant (or who is violating whose civil rights), always turn to the principle of "first harm". The mere existence of transgender people is not harmful to these TERFs. It's these TERFs who out transwomen, who stalk transwomen, and who have even assaulted transwomen who commit "first harm" in this discussion, ergo they are the intolerant ones. They are also a very tiny group in the wider feminist group so it's not proper to label all feminists as TERFs. Gloria Steinem has said, "So now I want to be unequivocal in my words: I believe that transgender people, including those who have transitioned, are living out real, authentic lives. Those lives should be celebrated, not questioned" So let's be clear that feminists see transwomen as women, and they even find value in those lives because those very lives demonstrate the proof of male privilege and the effects of patriarchy on humanity.

http://www.advocate.com/commentary/2013/10/02/op-ed-working-together-over-time

In short, the TERFs, are a small, loud hate group who are now crying because the rest of the world is recognizing them as a hate group.

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Guest Sarah Faith

Before this goes too far let me add something........................

Well I am going to play devils advocate here for a moment... Having actually encountered a few TERFs first hand at this point, and learned that they aren't all hatred filled psychopaths all of the articles and transgender activists make them out to be. I would say that their philosophy isn't born out of hatred because transgender people are different. Their philosophy came about because individuals who are actually suffering from gender identity issues, such as transsexuals, have largely been completely homogenized into a blended transgender umbrella that now also includes fetishists, crossdressers. This has all been done in the name of inclusion, and now the Transgender umbrella pushes laws that are so broad in definition that it would essentially allow anyone who even just claims they have gender identity issues to enter into a womens restroom. Individuals like Colleen Francis for example, who never made it a secret that transition was almost entirely a sexual turn on for them.

When you view this from their perspective it is easy to understand why they would look negatively on the transgender umbrella. Regardless of what is politically correct to say, there absolutely are individuals who exist under the transgender umbrella who do little more than portray caricatures of what women are.. Many TERF's support legislation for Transsexual women who transition completely and live entirely as women, however what they oppose are how these laws often try to be inclusive to again some individuals who are fetishists. When you are essentially advocating, at least from their perspective, allowing people who want to enter the womens restroom because of what almost amounts to a hobby who then go home take off that dress and work and live as males... Then you can clearly see where some of these issues and "hate" come from.

I can easily understand why they would feel that the transgender umbrella attempts to infiltrate female privilege while still enjoying male privilege when you look at it from that perspective.. Women don't have that ability, they can't just walk out of the womens bathroom go home put away the "womens clothes" and start enjoying male privilege socially or in the work place.

In fact as I have said in a previous thread of mine, I have never cut someone out of my life before until very recently.. That would be my transgender aunt, the one who was super abusive to me when I started transitioning about 8 years ago, and a large part of that cut off is because of this exact issue. She has absolutely no understanding or clue as to what it is to be a woman, she believes that being a woman revolves entirely around pretty clothes. Yet when it came to an actual case of a Transgender individual raping a young girl her attitude was "I don't see a problem.". It doesn't matter how you cut it, that is not a woman's perspective. I have been raped as a young teen, and I know full well that yes it is a problem. Inclusiveness, political correctness or not, how many of these people who are able to enjoy male privilege walk around at night by them selves keeping their heads on a swivel out of fear of what could happen? I would guess not very many, I know my aunt certainly isn't worried about it. I can say that when I am walking to my car, or home late at night by my self after a lab or work on campus, I have felt very nervous at times like most women would. I'm only 5'7" or so and I know full well I couldn't over power a male attacker of greater size.

Many "TERF's" That I have interacted with, now including the dreaded Cathy Brennan, are not ok with the transgender umbrella, but they would be perfectly supportive of legislation that protects transsexual women who completely medically transition and live as only women. So the whole TERF wars thing isn't as black and white as either group would like everyone to believe..

Just food for thought.

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I see what you're saying, Sarah. But in the articles and speeches I've read from TERF activists, they don't mention, or don't mention prominently, that distinction between the TG umbrella and those who represent transitioned women; i.e. transsexuals. If they did, perhaps it would make their objections less...objectionable. But the fringe aren't likely to draw those distinctions, because they are too busy making headlines and angry speeches.

I don't like extremists of any stripe, frankly. They rarely do much to advance their agenda, or reasoned discourse, no matter what position they take on any subject. I have difficulty with the TG umbrella myself - it does cause confusion, IMO. On the other hand, I understand the concept that created it; that there are shared issues among transfolk and by putting us all under this umbrella, it gives everyone more strength in numbers, and more of a feeling of community and solidarity.

Unfortunately, the fractures within this "community" are real and problematic, and I often feel like the umbrella has a whole lot of broken or missing ribs. The Transgender Advisory Board on which I sit has never had a member who was not transsexual. I doubt it ever will. Nevertheless, I don't see the term 'transgender" going away any time soon.

There are laws that should and do cover all TG folks. Those include hate crimes laws. If a cross dresser is assaulted because of her appearance, she deserves as much justice as a fully transitioned transsexual. Restroom access laws and regulations regarding school locker rooms can be more problematic. More single use and gender-less restrooms would mitigate such issues. Carefully written laws with adequate privacy guarantees is another solution. But then you're still going to have those extremists claiming that we're just out there to molest children and rape women, and they won't be satisfied with any such law. On the flip side, any language that makes exceptions or draws distinctions will garner howls of protest from trans activists. Where does that leave us? Right where we are now.

I guess I've gotten somewhat off topic. My main point is that, while there may be more reasonable TERFS out there, they are drowned out by the true radicals, and that will make dialogue and compromise impossible. If they just don't like use of the term transgender, then that is what they should say. I haven't heard it so far, and I would want to know what their agenda is before I would agree with any of it.

Carolyn Marie

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Lots of valid points, Sarah. That's why I am not fond of the transgender label for myself (even though the only place it has been applied to me has been in VA medical records and I have complained about it there). We can all stand together against transgender discrimination, generally speaking. But there are still important limitations and distinctions to be made.

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Radical feminists. These are the right wing conservative religious types right?

I think the first problem is obvious. Trans people invented an epithet to hurl at them. That is sure winning them over to the trans cause.

And lets see, that epithet doesn't just attached to radical feminists but any woman (or trans woman for that matter) that questions any policy that the trans community may proffer. As Sarah points out (and I have often voiced elsewhere) that the trans advocates push for protections that functionally define a woman as anyone who says they are. Seems to me that kinda destroys the idea of safe spaces for women. Is there any surprise that some women might question that?

But instead of any debate it is name calling to attack the person's character rather than debate the issue and I don't put much weight into assertions made by either sides radicals. Using inflammatory language just because the other side does is a pretty poor justification in my book.

Sarah raises some other good points and enumerates a number of issues. Most of what she lists she is careful to highlight that it is the conflation of transsexual with all other trans people.

And she raises the point that these "TERFs" do support trans women who are doing it for medical reasons are living full time and all that. They have supported policies to permit transitioning and inclusion.

Now I have my own observations as well of areas where some natural friction is going to occur.

Some trans people reinforce gender stereotypes by conforming to specific gender role stereotypes and even reveling in them. The "I always knew I was a girl because I like stuffed animals and playing with dolls" sort of thing. Or as an example a trans woman who isn't too concerned about her body being totally female but wants to be seen and treated "as a woman". Well doesn't that go directly against what feminists are working towards?

Some trans woman want to destroy safe spaces for women. Or like Sarah said, in their desire to include themselves leave the barn door open for exploitation.

Some trans women actually seem to look down on non-trans women. Expressing how they can somehow set new standards for women. For example a friend, who had done professional level billiards competition pre-transition at one point was interested in re-establishing herself as a woman in that field and beat the guys. That she would show other women that they can beat the guys too and she would teach them. Sort of like the husband of a woman on a softball team who steps in to coach without being asked because he knows better. That sort of thing doesn't sit well with many women.

I've also seen some trans women who engage in objectifying women even after they are living full time as women.

Some trans women are so focused on themselves, their wants that they put this ahead of the sensibilities of many woman. Deny any concerns over safe womens spaces. "Trans women never harm women, they are just women". And while that is largely true (there are always a few exceptions in any group) that doesn't explain why create a barn door that would include more people than trans women who could exploit it.

Then there are the trans women who are more interested in joining women's groups as a means of their own validation rather than really understanding what the group is about and being a member to support the group. And simple membership isn't enough but then they also want to be in the group's leadership. In my thinking the average trans woman who transitioned in her 50s and has lived less than 3 years full time probably only have a superficial understanding (at best) of the challenges women face and that perhaps more listening and general support is in order first before trying to step into leadership.

There is a very big difference between knocking on the door and when someone comes and demand to be let in verses knocking on the door and say "I hear you have this and that and I was curious and find interesting blah blah blah" and being invited in.

I've always worked the getting myself invited in rather than trying to invite myself. The whole issue disappears.

I am sure there are a few feminists that are totally irrational on the subject, prejudiced in their own way. Just like there are some trans folks who are irrational and prejudiced against feminists and any woman who dares questions some of the things trans advocates push. But like both groups these are the exceptions rather than the norm. I'll worry about the middle ground.

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I actually agree with Sarah and Drea but...

My beef is with the women's groups that absolutely even refuse to entertain the notion of accepting trans women into women's colleges, music festivals, even shun them in lgbt spaces, etc. because of "male energy" or because they've experienced male privilege at some point (ignoring how male privilege feels for transwomen - small consolation for dysphoria, stigma, and self-shame) while having no issue, even promoting fully transitioned trans men being in those spaces, not even with selling phallic merchandise (at said festival). It strikes me as utterly hypocritical and as trans-misogony. And there are enough radical feminists out there that think all trans women are raping women and objectifying them by transitioning to cause headaches.

I have no problem with the more moderate concerns of less than transitioned, less than trans people invading women's spaces for a thrill or making a mockery of women - I have problems with those issues myself - but those perspectives don't strike me as radical nor what the term "TERF" is referring to.

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"safe womens spaces"??? "the Transgender umbrella pushes laws that are so broad in definition that it would essentially allow anyone who even just claims they have gender identity issues to enter into a womens restroom"???

Are you all really bringing in the bathroom debate to try and excuse TERFs? The bathroom debate, of all things? I would think that the members of this site know better.

Jenna

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"safe womens spaces"??? "the Transgender umbrella pushes laws that are so broad in definition that it would essentially allow anyone who even just claims they have gender identity issues to enter into a womens restroom"???

Are you all really bringing in the bathroom debate to try and excuse TERFs? The bathroom debate, of all things? I would think that the members of this site know better.

Yes because it is relevant.

And while on the subject of the denial of that being a concern.

A few other reasons some trans women find getting respect from women difficult...

There are trans women who come to the aid of trans women who have murdered women.

There are trans women who excuse trans women who have sexually assaulted women.

There are trans women who tell women that they should be raped and assaulted.

Now I would grant that it may be a bit unfair for all trans women to be judged by the action of zealots that engage in that sort of hatred, but I don't see many trans people lining up to condemn those actions though I know they must be out there. On the other hand it doesn't seem too hard to find people to justify, excuse and support trans women who have done such things.

I grant there are some outright unreasonable people on the other side, but I know they are only a small portion of women who would be labeled TERF.

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Guest LizMarie

The TERFs do NOT support policies for trans women who transition. That is a flat out false statement. Ergo all conclusions drawn from that error are also in error.

Look up TERF leaders like Cathy Brennan who took that selfie of herself with a crayon drawing of a mutilated man where she scrawled "Sorry about your ****" on it. Look up the assaults on transitioned women advocated and openly celebrated by Julie Bindel. Look up the cyberstalking, outing transwomen to employers, and fabricating lies about transwomen to get them fired. Look up their statements where they say things like "We don't care what your suicide rate is. Don't you get it? We wish you would all die!"

As for Cathy Brennan, she has personally outed, stalked, and tried to have fired transitioned women who were living stealth. So I'd love to see such a statement from Cathy Brennan because I have read a lot of her crap and she's very clear that she thinks all transwomen are mutilated men.

Janice Raymond, author of The Transsexual Empire: The Making of the She-Male authored a paper iIn the early 1980s that the Health and Human Services branch of the U.S. Government used to deny trans men and women trans-related medical care, for example.

I'd post a link here to a summary of TERF discussions about transwomen.Those discussions are openly violent and call for our deaths. But I can't post that link because of LP's rules. These are a summary of actual Twitter posts from Brennan, Bindel, and dozens of other TERFs. The language used is hideous. It's violent. They openly wish we would all die. Brennan included.

Remember the Colorado teenager being harassed by Pacific Justice Institute? The one that claimed the teen was "harassing" cisgender girls in the bathroom? The one that was proven innocent by police and school investigation of those claims and the girls making it admitted it was fabricated at the urging of their parents? Who outed the teen trans girl? Cathy Brennan!

On September 10th, 2013, it was revealed that Cathy Brennan had directly contacted a trans activist's general practitioner in an email, misgendering the activist in question and implying that a "real woman" does not bully other women (ironic, given her history of bullying anyone she disagrees with), further implying that the patient's "mental health" is in jeopardy. The letter was CC'd to the College of Physicians and Surgeons in Ontario. The GP, of course, did not receive this letter well.

A trans woman who was suffering a 5 day intense PTSD attack ended up in the emergency room as well as a crisis center after tweets indicated she may harm herself. Cathy Brennan found a photo of her doctor on her Twitter timeline and used Google reverse images to find and make contact with that doctor, which caused greater problems for the trans woman by compromising and interfering in her medical treatment.

Cathy Brennan sent an email to at least a couple of people instructing them to contact the employer of a trans woman. Cathy Brennan, Janice Raymond and Nicky Chaleunphone sent emails regarding the trans woman's activism to the police department of her employer, apparently in an effort to silence the activist. Nicky Chaleunphone confirmed this was coordinated in the email he sent.

I could go on and on and on about Cathy Brennan and I have never seen her claim that she supports transitioned women at all. I have seen her claim transitioned women who have had GCS are "mutilated men".

Please do not tell me that TERFs respect transitioned women because I'll demand that you prove it. And if you find even a single quote from a specific TERF, I'll bet you I can find a dozen where the same TERF figure said the opposite thing.

So if you have made a claim that TERFs support transitioned women, back it up. I've researched this issue dozens of times and never ever seen even one such claim. (Note: I did see Brennan offering a lot of weasel words once but never committing to anything substantive during that specific interview.)

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"safe womens spaces"??? "the Transgender umbrella pushes laws that are so broad in definition that it would essentially allow anyone who even just claims they have gender identity issues to enter into a womens restroom"???

Are you all really bringing in the bathroom debate to try and excuse TERFs? The bathroom debate, of all things? I would think that the members of this site know better.

Yes because it is relevant.

And while on the subject of the denial of that being a concern.

A few other reasons some trans women find getting respect from women difficult...

There are trans women who come to the aid of trans women who have murdered women.

There are trans women who excuse trans women who have sexually assaulted women.

There are trans women who tell women that they should be raped and assaulted.

Now I would grant that it may be a bit unfair for all trans women to be judged by the action of zealots that engage in that sort of hatred, but I don't see many trans people lining up to condemn those actions though I know they must be out there. On the other hand it doesn't seem too hard to find people to justify, excuse and support trans women who have done such things.

I grant there are some outright unreasonable people on the other side, but I know they are only a small portion of women who would be labeled TERF.

I totally don't get that line of reasoning. There were plenty of black people who swore up and down that OJ was innocent, does that give anyone an excuse to deny people of a certain skin color respect? Does it make all other black people responsible for carrying the torch of outrage at OJ's crimes specifically to offset the supporters? NO. People are responsible for their own actions, and no group should be held responsible for the actions of a few members unless it is a group created around ideals that hold those actions as right and proper. We are not cup cake's, or the KKK. We're trans solely by virtue of chance and physiology, and that comes with no principles or ideals. Yeah, some of us are jerks. That should be the tagline for our entire species.

Placing responsibility for the actions of one on the entire demographic does nothing but confuse the issue, displace emotions, and create additional problems.

Also, on the bathroom issue. This is in response to Sarah... what is "complete medical transition" and how do you prove it? Is orchiectomy and estrogen enough, or should we all be forced to have vaginoplasty in order to get our Certified Woman Card? Should we be required to have FFS, a tracheal shave, and years of voice training so as to pass as well as possible? Who's going to check and make sure we're carrying our Certified Woman Card? If we forget it, will we have to show our genitals to a door checker before entering the bathroom? Will they install penis-trace detection portal machines in the doorway, to scan our body like they do in airports to check for bombs? Will we have quick-stop hormone level tests to make sure out testosterone isn't above par? Will we have to bring a buddy for character reference to vouch for our womanhood?

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Okay, I'm sure someone thought it would be funny to put n-a-z-i into the word filter, but I was literally referring to a group of people who violently discriminate against others as part of their ideology. Not delicious baked goods.

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Guest Sarah Faith

"safe womens spaces"??? "the Transgender umbrella pushes laws that are so broad in definition that it would essentially allow anyone who even just claims they have gender identity issues to enter into a womens restroom"???

Are you all really bringing in the bathroom debate to try and excuse TERFs? The bathroom debate, of all things? I would think that the members of this site know better.

Jenna

Please explain. Simply because someone is transsexual doesn't mean we all share the same beliefs or even view the world the same. There often seems to be this attitude that if someone is trans then we need to tow a certain line, the truth is that we don't.

"safe womens spaces"??? "the Transgender umbrella pushes laws that are so broad in definition that it would essentially allow anyone who even just claims they have gender identity issues to enter into a womens restroom"???

Are you all really bringing in the bathroom debate to try and excuse TERFs? The bathroom debate, of all things? I would think that the members of this site know better.

Yes because it is relevant.

And while on the subject of the denial of that being a concern.

A few other reasons some trans women find getting respect from women difficult...

There are trans women who come to the aid of trans women who have murdered women.

There are trans women who excuse trans women who have sexually assaulted women.

There are trans women who tell women that they should be raped and assaulted.

Now I would grant that it may be a bit unfair for all trans women to be judged by the action of zealots that engage in that sort of hatred, but I don't see many trans people lining up to condemn those actions though I know they must be out there. On the other hand it doesn't seem too hard to find people to justify, excuse and support trans women who have done such things.

I grant there are some outright unreasonable people on the other side, but I know they are only a small portion of women who would be labeled TERF.

I totally don't get that line of reasoning. There were plenty of black people who swore up and down that OJ was innocent, does that give anyone an excuse to deny people of a certain skin color respect? Does it make all other black people responsible for carrying the torch of outrage at OJ's crimes specifically to offset the supporters? NO. People are responsible for their own actions, and no group should be held responsible for the actions of a few members unless it is a group created around ideals that hold those actions as right and proper. We are not cup cake's, or the KKK. We're trans solely by virtue of chance and physiology, and that comes with no principles or ideals. Yeah, some of us are jerks. That should be the tagline for our entire species.

Placing responsibility for the actions of one on the entire demographic does nothing but confuse the issue, displace emotions, and create additional problems.

Also, on the bathroom issue. This is in response to Sarah... what is "complete medical transition" and how do you prove it? Is orchiectomy and estrogen enough, or should we all be forced to have vaginoplasty in order to get our Certified Woman Card? Should we be required to have FFS, a tracheal shave, and years of voice training so as to pass as well as possible? Who's going to check and make sure we're carrying our Certified Woman Card? If we forget it, will we have to show our genitals to a door checker before entering the bathroom? Will they install penis-trace detection portal machines in the doorway, to scan our body like they do in airports to check for bombs? Will we have quick-stop hormone level tests to make sure out testosterone isn't above par? Will we have to bring a buddy for character reference to vouch for our womanhood?

I don't think anyone is suggesting anything that extreme. The point of "bathroom" laws is to create a legal consequence for individuals who do enter bathrooms and cause issues. I would say most transsexual women who are transitioning just enter the bathroom and do their business and leave and it's nothing special. While I have nothing against crossdressers, their circumstances are quite different and the question is why would anyone expect all cis women in the world to be OK with making super broad overly inclusive bathroom laws? Is there a legitimate reason a fetishist or a crossdresser would need to use a womens restroom? I mean nominally this is typically done not in public. And what this could do however is have -Non trans- individuals who are sexual deviants enter women's restrooms cause issues, and when confronted or arrested claim they have gender issues. and then guess who will get the blame for a cis-males bad behavior? Those of us who are legitimately trying to medically deal with what is essentially a birth defect.

I'm a woman with trans history, but do you think just because of that that I would just give a smile and a nod to some guy that enters the bathroom, maybe in drag, maybe not, staring lewdly and acting very inappropriately? No I'd feel uncomfortable and try to get out of said enclosed space. Just like how I do not support the right for violent sex offenders to be able to legally transition. Sexual assault is one of the worst things anyone can ever experience period.

However I am not suggesting that we have bathroom police, or that we require people to have birth certificates or anything as inane as that. I am suggesting that there is a middle ground to be had that suites the needs of those who genuinely need to have access to gender appropriate bathrooms, and keeping these space reasonably "safe" for women.

Also for the record a well known and "reviled" TERF actually recently posted on her gender identity watch site opposing the Florida bathroom bill and this is what she had to say about it..

"We oppose this legislation because, among other reasons, it will demonize gender nonconforming Women using Women’s facilities. We encourage transgender activists to limit their so-called “civil rights” legislation to actual transsexuals, to the extent they still believe such legislation is necessary." Cathy Brennen

Again... food for thought.

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Isolate haters, call them out into the light, their karmatic wake is in a downward spiral, their hate brings them down....it's heavy gravity...

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The point of "bathroom" laws is to create a legal consequence for individuals who do enter bathrooms and cause issues. I would say most transsexual women who are transitioning just enter the bathroom and do their business and leave and it's nothing special.

However I am not suggesting that we have bathroom police, or that we require people to have birth certificates or anything as inane as that. I am suggesting that there is a middle ground to be had that suites the needs of those who genuinely need to have access to gender appropriate bathrooms, and keeping these space reasonably "safe" for women.

The point of the so called "bathroom laws" is to force trans people to use the bathroom which corresponds to gender assigned at birth, NOT to keep non-trans trouble makers out. These laws blatantly harass and demean trans folk, deny our legitimate genders, out us if we comply, and place us in physical danger if we comply. A trans person defending bathroom laws is like a black person favoring the repeal of the Civil Rights Act.

Jenna

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The point of "bathroom" laws is to create a legal consequence for individuals who do enter bathrooms and cause issues. I would say most transsexual women who are transitioning just enter the bathroom and do their business and leave and it's nothing special.

However I am not suggesting that we have bathroom police, or that we require people to have birth certificates or anything as inane as that. I am suggesting that there is a middle ground to be had that suites the needs of those who genuinely need to have access to gender appropriate bathrooms, and keeping these space reasonably "safe" for women.

The point of the so called "bathroom laws" is to force trans people to use the bathroom which corresponds to gender assigned at birth, NOT to keep non-trans trouble makers out. These laws blatantly harass and demean trans folk, deny our legitimate genders, out us if we comply, and place us in physical danger if we comply. A trans person defending bathroom laws is like a black person favoring the repeal of the Civil Rights Act.

Jenna

There's a difference between defending the bathroom laws and saying that the legislation trans activists are demanding is too broad and that women have a right to be concerned.

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Seriously! This issue is really pushing some buttons. But it's really not as clear and simple as some are making it out to be. I have lots of experience with public restrooms in different school buildings on a daily basis as a substitute teacher. And on a regular basis I will overhear some rude kids questioning my sex/gender. But not once has any adult staff ever directed me to the men's restroom! In all honesty, I don't know what people really think about me because I just do my job and don't have the time or security to "come out" officially to anyone. I don't know if the staff thinks students are just being mean because of my size and the fact that I'm a sub for the day, but that it's not really true? Regardless, I am trusted on a regular basis at all grade levels, even at the preschool and special needs levels where I sometimes need to go into the restrooms with the children to assist them. No one has ever questioned me or acted like I could be some potential rapist! I'm a woman, a female teacher! That's how I'm treated, except that some students do say rude things from time to time, until they get caught and learn that it is unacceptable. Sometimes, I don't get a key to the staff restrooms and have to use the student restrooms with the girls, but when they see me in there, I've never had any complaints even from the highly opinionated teenagers.

Would all of this be different if I could ever feel safe enough to be "out?" Sometimes I wish I could be more open, because I know there are students it would benefit. But the truth is, that coming out even as a "transsexual" in the past few years can still leave students and staff preoccupied with looking at my crotch and wondering what my anatomy is underneath! Yes, I resent that! I'm sorry! I have to say it. And that is what I am hearing in this bathroom issue--you can just say you are female and there you go. So if I come out, that's all it means, and they are just going to sit there wondering, and not hearing another word I say. I'll be totally useless as a teacher, because I'll just be the object of this perpetual guessing game.

I actually had a student (who had a reputation for causing trouble) say to me a few weeks back, "Get your weiner out of my face." I removed him from the classroom immediately and dealt with it and was supported by other staff who apologized to me for his behavior on my first day there. But what if I was someone who actually had a "weiner" and was maybe afraid a bulge might have been showing or something? I only handled that with the confidence I had because of the fact that he was wrong! The other teachers ended up putting me on their preferred substitute teacher list and have called me to come back even after that incident. But I don't know that it still would have happened if I had said that I actually was trans, with the implication that the student may have been correct, since some trans-women do in fact have "weiners." Well, I'm sorry again. Maybe this is too much food for thought now.

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I totally don't get that line of reasoning. There were plenty of black people who swore up and down that OJ was innocent, does that give anyone an excuse to deny people of a certain skin color respect? Does it make all other black people responsible for carrying the torch of outrage at OJ's crimes specifically to offset the supporters? NO. People are responsible for their own actions, and no group should be held responsible for the actions of a few members unless it is a group created around ideals that hold those actions as right and proper. We are not cup cake's, or the KKK. We're trans solely by virtue of chance and physiology, and that comes with no principles or ideals. Yeah, some of us are jerks. That should be the tagline for our entire species.

Placing responsibility for the actions of one on the entire demographic does nothing but confuse the issue, displace emotions, and create additional problems.

That is an incorrect analogy.

First there isn't a question or guilt or innocence, the person was guilty.

Second the people aren't just believing the person is not guilty, the people I refer to knew of the person's guilt and even after knowing that fact excused, justified and supported the person. And the way some trans women have in their arguments with "TERFs" telling them they should be raped, apparently don't think rape isn't a big deal, that it is a just punishment.

Lastly JO, despite being found not guilty isn't out there front and center being a spokesman for the community and pushing for laws. By comparison the trans woman who was guilty of sexual assault was advocating for these same barn door laws that could be exploited by pervs to be protected in access women's spaces so they can't be arrested or at least ejected for mere presence but only after if they are caught in the process or after the act.

It would be like if OJ had been found guilty and his supporters said that is okay he committed murder because he is representing us, with a few of the most radical supporters suggesting he should have killed more women while at the same time OJ was promoting legislation that had one nominal stated purpose yet it just happens that it would make stalking women easier.

Assuming that was the case with OJ Simpson, should that negatively on all African Americans? I would agree it shouldn't but it would create some negative appearances. It would and should undercut his effectiveness as a spokesperson as it would due to all those who support and justify his commiting murder (in this hypothetical example. To the degree others remain silent on the issue because he is their guy, it will tend to discredit all.

I suspect though that bringing up race and the reductio ad Hitlerum attempt was less about intelligently discussing the merits and more to paint the critic (such as me) as someone just as evil as a racists and fascists.

The point of "bathroom" laws is to create a legal consequence for individuals who do enter bathrooms and cause issues. I would say most transsexual women who are transitioning just enter the bathroom and do their business and leave and it's nothing special.

However I am not suggesting that we have bathroom police, or that we require people to have birth certificates or anything as inane as that. I am suggesting that there is a middle ground to be had that suites the needs of those who genuinely need to have access to gender appropriate bathrooms, and keeping these space reasonably "safe" for women.

The point of the so called "bathroom laws" is to force trans people to use the bathroom which corresponds to gender assigned at birth, NOT to keep non-trans trouble makers out. These laws blatantly harass and demean trans folk, deny our legitimate genders, out us if we comply, and place us in physical danger if we comply. A trans person defending bathroom laws is like a black person favoring the repeal of the Civil Rights Act.

Jenna

Okay this is a point where I see Sarah and Jenna are both partly right and partly wrong. Sarah is correct that existing law in place (to the degree there are any specific laws) that would protect women's spaces from men entering is as Sarah says. And some of the laws being proposed are trying to seek balance after laws pushed by trans advocates have opened the barn door to exploitation have been adopted or trying to head those off. I think Sarah is wrong by asserting this true for all "bathroom bills".

Jenna is correct that there are certain bathroom bills specifically targeting trans people with clear language such as referencing their sex at birth. I note that such bills were an obvious and predictable outcome back a number of years ago when I pointed out this new "pervy obsession" with the trans community was developing towards restroom issues. But anyway it is incorrect to characterize as this being the purpose of all "bathroom bills". Some don't have language that would exclude those transitioning but of course such is considered unfair because it could be used to exclude others.

Furthermore, I think there are more "bathroom bills" or bills that include bathroom issues sponsored by trans people the majority of which these days seem to want the open up a barn door for exploitation by non-trans people. Thus saying "bathroom bills" are only about excluding trans people is faulty.

Trans people have fought against stereotypes that this is a fetish, that trans people are pervs. Restroom issues were about using discretion, do your business, move on. Get a carry letter from your therapist to cover. But trans people get some support, some understanding, and what do they do? Develop this pervy obsession over the restroom and push for laws that don't just protect trans women but also are open to exploitation by pervs. Then, when this is pointed out the advocates strenuously against anything to prevent that exploitation, it certainly starts to look as if the real agenda goes beyond the stated one.

And getting back around to the feminists. Is it at all surprising that feminists have an issue with trans people when the definition of being a woman is relegated to nothing more than simple self declaration? That in making it a self declaration it totally ignores the biological and social realities of women and functionally destroys all the protections women have fought for. Not because some trans person identifies as a woman but because men could claim to be women too?

I think much of the hubbub in the trans community is more rooted in self consciousness, insecurity in themselves and women and wanting access from day one rather than doing the work to earn it. That it is unacceptable to have even a single therapist visit to get a carry letter.

And all this nonsense about body searches and check points for women's rooms and the ole "papers please" assertion I have seen made in the past (which by the way seems to be another reductio ad Hitlerum attempt due to the images that "papers please" invokes) are all manufactured concerns. The only time ever that such is going to come up is when there is a suspicion.

Now I have been "proofed" after using the ladies room. Yep it happens. I think most who transition get some odd looks from time to time, but I don't know anyone else who has gotten proofed. Anyway this happened once in very many years. It was so terribly embarrassing, for the guy who approached me about it that is. As for me I was practically rolling on the floor laughing and could hardly keep a strait face as he tried to state what he was asking.

And that instance was one where I had temped fate so wasn't surprised. I was at that large store on a daily basis. I had stopped using the men's room there about 6 months earlier and didn't use any restroom there at all recognizing I couldn't just switch from one to the other so was giving it time. Still I was known and I never said what was going on with me. I don't know if someone remembered me using the mens room or if it was just a combination of having facial stubble, it being Halloween (where an incident of a guy dressed as a girl might more likely be expected to try and use the ladies room), and my first time ever using the ladies room there. I was confident in myself at that point so when he approached me all awkwardness was on him.

I find all the hyperbole about routine paper or anatomy checks as nonsensical and have little root in reality.

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The TERFS, whoever they may be, seem to be winning in this thread

Ah a good point, I been labeled a TERF before and I don't even count myself as a feminist although I seem to have more respect for feminists than some trans women who consider themselves feminists.

As I seen it applied the TERF label only about 10% of the time seems to get attacked to any sort of radical feminist, and of that 10% maybe one in twenty are truly unreasonable and prejudiced against trans women as a whole.

Of the other 90% the TERF label gets hurled at are women, feminist or not and even trans women, who dare question why the barn door has to be open so much that men can access women's spaces if they really want.

As always though it is the moderate people who are the problem who should shut up and let the zealots have their way in order to prevent disunity because they are our zealots after all.

The predictable outcome of redefining who is a woman around just a self declaration is that women's spaces will functionally cease to exists. It is already happening. Common spaces with individual changing stalls is become more then norm than separate mens and womens changing areas. It beats being on the short end of a lawsuit. Hey maybe the change to unisex is what the majority of trans people want?

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Let me see if I can get my point across.

Laws restricting bathroom use to "true" transgender individuals are unenforceable without a concrete definition and method in place to check each and every person entering the bathroom and any way that it's implemented will be open to abuse.

Say a law is passed that restricts womens bathroom use to "cis women and MtF transexuals". A trans woman enters the bathroom and is accused of being a man by an alarmed cis woman. The cis woman calls security. The trans woman in question is on hormones and has had an orchiectomy, but her liscence still says "M" because her state requires full SRS to change her gender marker. She is detained and charged for being a man in the womens restroom.

Consider a trans woman who's undergoing therapy to get her letter and recieve hormones. She goes out presenting as female and has to use the restroom, encountering a similar problem to the one above. Who decides that she's truely transgender and not a crossdresser? How deep does the law get to dig into and disrupt her life to decide whether or not she's actually a man guilty of entering the womens restroom?

It's easy to say that you want womens bathrooms to be restricted to womens use, but in practice there is precious little way to analyze the gender of someone you do not know and decide whether they are actually a woman or just a man dressing up short of massive invasions of privacy. Such laws merely make every paranoid woman a gatekeeper, making snap decisions based on their idea of what a trans woman should look like.

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The TERFS, whoever they may be, seem to be winning in this thread: They've caused infighting amongst ourselves. It brings to mind Lincoln's words, "A house divided against itself cannot stand".

So, perhaps instead of working oneself into a lather trying to prove oneself right, a bit of conciliation is a better approach? My generation's words are my anthem for the day: Make love, not war!

Love, Megan

I offer no support to the TERFs or any other critics we have. I simply try to pay attention and anticipate their criticisms so that I can support ideas and courses of action that do not provide them more ammunition to use against us in the long run. And while we're into using cliches, I'm not a "house" and I have no desire to just "stand" here in the first place.

Let me see if I can get my point across.

Laws restricting bathroom use to "true" transgender individuals are unenforceable without a concrete definition and method in place to check each and every person entering the bathroom and any way that it's implemented will be open to abuse.

Say a law is passed that restricts womens bathroom use to "cis women and MtF transexuals". A trans woman enters the bathroom and is accused of being a man by an alarmed cis woman. The cis woman calls security. The trans woman in question is on hormones and has had an orchiectomy, but her liscence still says "M" because her state requires full SRS to change her gender marker. She is detained and charged for being a man in the womens restroom.

Consider a trans woman who's undergoing therapy to get her letter and recieve hormones. She goes out presenting as female and has to use the restroom, encountering a similar problem to the one above. Who decides that she's truely transgender and not a crossdresser? How deep does the law get to dig into and disrupt her life to decide whether or not she's actually a man guilty of entering the womens restroom?

It's easy to say that you want womens bathrooms to be restricted to womens use, but in practice there is precious little way to analyze the gender of someone you do not know and decide whether they are actually a woman or just a man dressing up short of massive invasions of privacy. Such laws merely make every paranoid woman a gatekeeper, making snap decisions based on their idea of what a trans woman should look like.

Your point is not becoming any more clear when you go from speaking of "true" transgender individuals to then segregating subcategories such as crossdressers. We've already addressed the problems caused by the umbrella term transgender in the first place (which includes all from crossdressers to genderqueers and so on) and adding the "true" qualifier does nothing to resolve anything.

I was very thankful that I could change my drivers license from M to F during my RLE. But I had to get my form signed saying that I was following the WPATH SOC. There were rigorous standards in place I had to meet before I could just assert something casually and transiently. The critics of these bathroom bills are claiming just that--that "men" can causally and transiently claim to be women and go into public restrooms for nefarious reasons. We just need to ensure that we do keep high standards in place before anyone can actually get legal backing for having that M changed to F. And yes, that process is personal, confidential, and private. No one needs to prove it each and every time she uses a public restroom! But the public needs to be assured that such standards are in place and that it is not something that just anyone can walk in and grab on a whim and say I want my female ID now, thank you very much!

Beyond that, we still need to clarify our language so that we are not all lumped into one umbrella term. I have read arguments over these "Bathroom Bills" they will actually allow teachers to crossdress in front of students! Yeah, that hits home with me and I see it as deriving from all this confused language. I do still support the idea that a crossdresser needing to use the restroom while driving home from where ever, should not risk standing in front of a urinal in a mini skirt and high heels! That's just not right either. We do have a lot to work out within our own broader community. We do have a lot of room for agreement and common goals. But we also have our own distinct identities and smaller groups that ought not be confused with each other because do have distinct characteristics and needs.

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Let me see if I can get my point across.

Laws restricting bathroom use to "true" transgender individuals are unenforceable without a concrete definition and method in place to check each and every person entering the bathroom and any way that it's implemented will be open to abuse.

Say a law is passed that restricts womens bathroom use to "cis women and MtF transexuals". A trans woman enters the bathroom and is accused of being a man by an alarmed cis woman. The cis woman calls security. The trans woman in question is on hormones and has had an orchiectomy, but her liscence still says "M" because her state requires full SRS to change her gender marker. She is detained and charged for being a man in the womens restroom.

Consider a trans woman who's undergoing therapy to get her letter and recieve hormones. She goes out presenting as female and has to use the restroom, encountering a similar problem to the one above. Who decides that she's truely transgender and not a crossdresser? How deep does the law get to dig into and disrupt her life to decide whether or not she's actually a man guilty of entering the womens restroom?

It's easy to say that you want womens bathrooms to be restricted to womens use, but in practice there is precious little way to analyze the gender of someone you do not know and decide whether they are actually a woman or just a man dressing up short of massive invasions of privacy. Such laws merely make every paranoid woman a gatekeeper, making snap decisions based on their idea of what a trans woman should look like.

I see what you're saying, and sort of agree, but the situations above would be easily resolved by carrying a letter from your therapist that explains that you are indeed transitioning and have a right to be there. Of course I think the odds of the above situations even happening are far overstated.

Now that opens up the problem of what to do if you can't afford a therapist, which indeed is a problem, one of many with our unaffordable healthcare system and high rates of poverty in the community. I'd like to say that's a separate issue that needs to be addressed by mandating better insurance coverage of trans people, but hey I HAVE insurance and it's still barely affordable and I make a decent wave. Not sure what to do about that, but to say that there's no way to determine is far fetched.

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Here's my problem with your points, Ky and Desi. Ky, you say legitimate trans women should carry papers that can be produced on demand. To me, that's wrong and demeaning. Forget your letter at home, can't use the women's restroom? It's asinine.

Desi, you said "The critics of these bathroom bills are claiming just that--that "men" can causally and transiently claim to be women and go into public restrooms for nefarious reasons. We just need to ensure that we do keep high standards in place before anyone can actually get legal backing for having that M changed to F"

You're saying we should prove ourselves to the public at large because of the possibility of Pervs Under Cover Of Transgenderism (PUCOT) sneaking into women's spaces for nefarious purposes. PUCOTs are a complete red herring invented by anti-trans activists to scare and bamboozle the public into supporting anti-trans laws, in the bathroom and elsewhere. To my knowledge, there has never been an actual PUCOT instance in places with trans-inclusive bathroom laws. I'm sure Carolyn would inform us immediately if it happened; she's phenomenal at being on top of these things. In fact, I believe she just recently put up a thread documenting evidence that there HAVEN'T been any PUCOT incidents whatsoever in areas of trans-inclusive laws. It's a made up, fear mongering problem.

That is why I am quite literally SHOCKED to see (presumably) trans people bringing up PUCOT possibilities on a trans support site to defend TERFs and other people who want to regulate our use of the facilities.

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Jenna I said that in the scenario (a highly unlikely one) that you proposed there was indeed an easy solution. But under no circumstances did I advocate for "bathroom checkers" that woukd demand to see your papers before letting you gain entry. You're extrapolating to a situation that would never happen.

And idk, it seems to me to be common sense that if you're not passable (hell even if you are), haven't been able to change you're gender marker on official ID, that you'd want to be carrying something anyway that explains your situation regardless of what the law says about bathroom use. It's insurance for all kinds of things.

Women have a right to be concerned about the possibility of losing so called safe spaces. Most women are terrified of rape, regardless of the statistical odds, and the perception of having women only spaces can be comforting. To hear that those spaces might be taken from you all so some man who gets a kick out of making a mockery of women (let's face it, we all know the stereotypical image a crossdresser) can invade it - can you not see why this might be disturbing to cis women?

There might be no cases of anything bad happening but that's not the heart of the issue. The issue is the (perceived or actual) elimination of women only spaces. The fears women have are reasonable, and when just a few weeks ago it turns a transwoman activist was a rapist, well it doesn't di much for our "oh nothing bad would ever happen" argument.

None of this is advocating for the TERF position. Yes, there are cis women out there who would love to see all of us rounded up and given to Isis. This isn't about them. This is about the idea that any time a relatively moderate woman expresses concerns about losing woman only spaces she is immediately labeled as a bigot and TERF by the community.

Laws that essentially say any person can use any gendered facilities they want to are overly broad for what the community needs and are easily open to exploitation. Why anyone would be unable to see how problematic this must appear to the rest of the workd is beyond me. But surely there is a middle ground that guarantees trans people the right to use the bathroom of their presentation without creating a blanket anything goes policy.

In the situation you describe imagine it was an actual man that decided to use the women's locker room...if a woman complained and tried to have him expelled or charged, all he'd have to do is claim he had a female gender identity and then boom free peep show. There'd be nothing anyone could legally do about it because the law specifically defines gender identity as nothing more than what one says it is. Can you not see how problematic that is? Can you not see why women would take issue with laws that would make a situation like that perfectly legal?

Personally, I find the whole debate about bathroom laws to be sort of moot anyway. As pointed out by many, they're largely unenforceable. Transwomen can use female facilities already without much reason to fear. And as long as you're not sprouting a beard, if you're presenting female you're likely to run into little trouble anyway. All the bathroom debate is really doing is putting more scrutiny on how male or female one looks.

At any rate the situation is way more nuanced than just all women with concerns are TERFS and if your empathize with them at all you're a traitor to you're own community (not that anyone has directly said that).

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Here's my problem with your points, Ky and Desi. Ky, you say legitimate trans women should carry papers that can be produced on demand. To me, that's wrong and demeaning. Forget your letter at home, can't use the women's restroom? It's asinine.

Desi, you said "The critics of these bathroom bills are claiming just that--that "men" can causally and transiently claim to be women and go into public restrooms for nefarious reasons. We just need to ensure that we do keep high standards in place before anyone can actually get legal backing for having that M changed to F"

You're saying we should prove ourselves to the public at large because of the possibility of Pervs Under Cover Of Transgenderism (PUCOT) sneaking into women's spaces for nefarious purposes. PUCOTs are a complete red herring invented by anti-trans activists to scare and bamboozle the public into supporting anti-trans laws, in the bathroom and elsewhere. To my knowledge, there has never been an actual PUCOT instance in places with trans-inclusive bathroom laws. I'm sure Carolyn would inform us immediately if it happened; she's phenomenal at being on top of these things. In fact, I believe she just recently put up a thread documenting evidence that there HAVEN'T been any PUCOT incidents whatsoever in areas of trans-inclusive laws. It's a made up, fear mongering problem.

That is why I am quite literally SHOCKED to see (presumably) trans people bringing up PUCOT possibilities on a trans support site to defend TERFs and other people who want to regulate our use of the facilities.

Jenna please . . . did you have to cut off my quote and misconstrue my entire message to achieve your dramatic SHOCK? You left off where I said,

"We just need to ensure that we do keep high standards in place before anyone can actually get legal backing for having that M changed to F. And yes, that process is personal, confidential, and private. No one needs to prove it each and every time she uses a public restroom!"

I did not invent or use a bogey man as an excuse, so please don't put words in my mouth while ignoring the ones I actually did say. There are lots of good reasons far beyond the restroom doors, to support high standards of care. I also did say clearly that I do not support TERFs or any of our other critics (that I did not list by name, such as the Family Research Council and American Family Association, etc.) So should I turn around and twist your words now and feign SHOCK that you are against any standards of care at all!? Please, let's not do this. You know what I said. I know what you said. We know where we agree. We know where we disagree.

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