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How Big Problem Is A Heavy Skeleton For A Man Who Wants To Go Through Transition?


Guest mak

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Hi to all...

I am new in the forum so let me introduce myself...

My name is Sakis and I am a 25-year old man who lives in Greece.

For many years I have felt that I am ""prisoned"" in the wrong body and that, at least sexually I feel like a female and I continuously dream about being a woman...

All this has caused me pain in the past and I have to admit that it still causes to me anger and depression.

In spite of this I have started to think very seriously about changing sex. I read some things about sex change in the internet. I found some useful information in this message . I also found very useful information at the web page ""Transsexual women's successes"" of Lynn Conway and at the site of Andrea James.

My BIG problem is that I am a man with a quite masculine body and a big, heavy skeleton . I am also quite fat, but this is not a very big problem. Extra fat can be lost with a good diet.

To help you understand what I mean when I say that I have a big skeleton I will give you some information. I have a height of 1,84 meters and a weight of 108 kilos. I went to a doctor to give me some advice on diet. She told me that I will have a normal percentage of fat if I lose 12-17 kilos. This means that for a person with my height( 1,84 m) AND MY SKELETON 91-96 kilos is the normal weight.

I tried to find some information about this problem of mine until I came across this text in the internet..

http://www.transsexual.org/basicsoftransition.html

However, there are some, who truly can never hope to pass. Some who truly cannot realistically hope to ever be fully accepted as their target gender and sex. Perhaps it is an issue with hormones, perhaps it is the shape of their skeleton, or some other real and strong issue. For those, there is only one way to evaluate the problem, and that way is actually the basic rule any transsexual must use, which is to ask oneself exactly what one can live with, and what one cannot bear to live without. In that question is the answer to the issue of surgery, of beginning transition at all, of bothering with anything, really. It all comes down to 'what can I put up with, and what can I not stand to bear?'

The above text really worried me. I am really afraid that I will never be able to have a decent, satisfactory female body, that I can never hope to pass......

If you could give me any kind of information about my problem, it would be very nice. I am especially interested in the opinion of people who are facing the same problem with me( or who have faced this problem in the past).

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Hi Sakis:

The first question is: Do you actually have a big skeleton? Measuring the wrist is one indication.

Can you encircle your wrist with the other hand completely?

You won't really know until you lose that weight.

Your current BMI (Body Mass Index, see Wiki Article) is 32. That puts you in the obese category normally.

Even at 91 kilograms, the BMI is 27, overweight.

Yes, bones and muscles are very heavy and can give an inflated BMI. Still, most women's goals are way under 25. My current BMI is 21.

Hormone therapy will wittle away your muscles. I just measured my biceps at 28cm (11"). But I've never weight lifted.

Some MTF's have trouble getting rid of muscle.

In any case, there are an awful lot of "big boned" women out there.

What you quoted is a bit sobering, but realistic. Some of us will never pass.

No matter how you look, you could still adopt the attitude, "I'm a woman, end of discussion".

There are some MTF's who are unpassable but who are accepted by family, friends and co-workers.

Admittedly, it could be a big hassle with strangers.

For me, being happy with myself is #1, convincing other people what I am is way down the list.

I hope this helps and welcome to the forums.

Z.

(I used to really love Retsina, but I've given up alcohol for my liver (HRT) and weight.)

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Guest Madison_Always

yeah im sorry but im not rly sure im fairly moderate in size im slightly taller than most girls at my school im 5ft 8in(not sure about cm) but im also pretty skinny im 135lbs whichi have an incredibly fast metabolism i lost 8 lbs in two days when i was sick a couple weeks ago it was all cause i didnt eat but as for big boned there r a ton of big girls were im from and they have no problem passing u just have to work at it if act feminine and others have no reason to suspect u then most probably wont just dont draw attention to yourself, although i have not come out yet i have read a lot and i would reccomend secondtype.com for more info on transwomen and there is even a test to judge how well u would pass althought it is not even close to always acurate. good luck. lots a luv

-Melanie

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Hi Sakis:

The first question is: Do you actually have a big skeleton? Measuring the wrist is one indication.

Can you encircle your wrist with the other hand completely?

You won't really know until you lose that weight.

Hi Zufrieden,

I measured my wrists.... The point is that when I was 14-15 I broke my left arm twice and I had to put it in plaster for 7-8 months... So the left arm did not grow as much as the right one, which is now bigger...

I realised that because of this while I certainly cannot encircle the right wrist, I can almost encircle the left one....

I think that probably I should take the right wrist( the big one) as an indicator...

Your current BMI (Body Mass Index, see Wiki Article) is 32. That puts you in the obese category normally.

Even at 91 kilograms, the BMI is 27, overweight.

Yes, bones and muscles are very heavy and can give an inflated BMI. Still, most women's goals are way under 25. My current BMI is 21.

Hormone therapy will wittle away your muscles. I just measured my biceps at 28cm (11"). But I've never weight lifted.

Some MTF's have trouble getting rid of muscle.

I did not know what this "BMI" is all about, but now I know...

So I will make a little correction to your calculations since while I weigh 108 kilos with clothes, I weigh 106 kilos naked.

I guess that I should calculate my BMI according to my ""pure"", without clothes weight and so..........

my current BMI is 31,30

and if I lose 17 kilos( the doctor advised me to lose 12-17) my BMI will be 26,30.....

The reasons why I reached the ( possibly wrong) conclusion that I have a big, heavy skeketon are these...

1) My current body. It seems quite masculine with big shoulders, big arms and legs etc. etc. And if I remember correctly I had such an appearance even before I started to eat much and get extra fat...

2) As I told you I went to a doctor to give me advice about which diet program to follow, what to avoid to eat, how to combine foods etc. in order to lose weight(there must be a specific word in english for these doctors who have an expertise on diet, but I don't remember it now. Well this doctor advised me to lose 12-17 kilos in order to limit my weight to 89-94 kilos. A female friend of mine who is also obese and has almost the same height with me( maybe she is a little taller than me) was told by the same doctor to limit her weight to 65 kilos if possible.

So there is a reason why I was told to limit my weight to 89-94 kilos while she was told to limit her weight to 65 kilos....

The reason must be that I either have a quite heavier skeleton than her or that I have quite bigger muscles than her or ( most probably) that I have both a quite heavier skeleton than her and quite bigger muscles than her....

The problem of the big muscles maybe it can be solved, since, as you say, ""hormone therapy will wittle away your muscles""....

But I guess that nothing can be done with the skeleton.....

Anyway, thanks for the information and the advice..... if you have any more to give me, I will be very glad to read it.

(I used to really love Retsina, but I've given up alcohol for my liver (HRT) and weight.)

Retsina is nice, but I prefer another greek alcohol drink called ""tsipouro""......

Having to give up food and drinks that you like certainly( and unfortunately for both of us) sucks............

Let me know something.... does someone have to pay ""extra"" attention to his/her health only during the transition or after it as well??

I mean, when you finish the HRT ( and all the other stuff) you will steal have to be ""extra"" careful with your liver??

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YahSU Sakis,

Plump people have a natural 'androgynous'[an interesting Greek word] look about them and 'passing' as a genetic female can be easier for people your size that slim people whose masculine facial bone structure remains prominent...I'm sure there are trans-women in this forum who are in a similar situation to yourself-'body wise' and who have transitioned and live quite a contented life. Don't worry just enjoy being you.... I have fond memories of Greece-the Greek islands are beautiful

Metta Jendar

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Hi Sakis:

Well you can look at both sides of the weight coin.

A lot (but not all) MTF's make super-human efforts to get the weight down.

There is kind of an overbearing pressure in society for women to be thin.

On the other hand, you want enough fat left over to get to the right places.

I'm kind of surprised at your results of the "wrist test".

Touching thunb to middle finger for me is no problem.

With a bit of effort my thumb can completely cover the fingernail of my middle finger, if you can see what I mean.

As far as the difference between what your doctor recommended to you and what she recommended to your friend,

the fact your friend is female with higher standards (and lower BMI) might be part of it. But frame size and muscles play a part, too.

There are a zillion BMI caclulators on the Web. Some try to fine-tune for age, sex and frame size.

One I looked at placed my BMI of 21 at the 6th percentile in the U.S. (that means 94% of Americans are fatter than me.)

(Still, over 50% of Americans are overweight.)

One said that my age adjusted BMI was 19.2 making me underweight!

At 25, you've not yet begun the metabolic decline that hits all adults. That's one reason adults get fat.

They keep on eating like they always used to eat, they get less excercise and their metabolism has slowed down.

So now the bad news. Going on HRT takes your metabolism down a notch. This will remain as long as you've

swapped your testosterone for estrogen. Genetic women are used to eating like women already. To keep the

weight off you will have to also. That means not having the spare ribs for lunch but the garden salad.

It means also, that it's probably easier to lose weight before you go on HRT.

My experience with HRT may not be representative.

Even though I had almost a sensual relationship with food and drink, my interest has decreased significantly.

This makes it easier to not eat. I don't really miss alcohol. Some would view it as a big disadvantage.

I find that the benefits from HRT overwhelmingly outweigh the disadvantages.

Z.

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Guest Katie-Louise
YahSU Sakis,

Plump people have a natural 'androgynous'[an interesting Greek word] look about them and 'passing' as a genetic female can be easier for people your size that slim people whose masculine facial bone structure remains prominent...I'm sure there are trans-women in this forum who are in a similar situation to yourself-'body wise' and who have transitioned and live quite a contented life. Don't worry just enjoy being you.... I have fond memories of Greece-the Greek islands are beautiful

Metta Jendar

Yh Jendar is right people your size can pass easier than others im sure you have a very good figure, im 174m and you are only 10m taller than me so I think your height is good ive seen loads of females that are 6ft 5" so height really isnt a problem and ur weight seems ok for your height. Im so glad I was born with a womanly figure and look it makes it easier to pass and i'm sure u will pass easy aswell and if u want to change sex go for it girl so long as ur 110% sure lots of luv, katie louise

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I'm kind of surprised at your results of the "wrist test".

Touching thunb to middle finger for me is no problem.

With a bit of effort my thumb can completely cover the fingernail of my middle finger, if you can see what I mean.

One little correction to what I said before........

In fact I can encircle the wrist of the left hand( the smaller one). I preferred to say that ""I can almost encircle it"" because I could touch only the middle finger with my thumb and not any other finger.

But now I realised that with a bit of effort I can touch the ring finger as well. And that with a bit of effort I can cover a part of the fingernail of the middle finger.

As for the right hand( the bigger one) I cannot touch it. With some effort I can come quite close, but I still cannoy touch it.

Anyway I know that I may have confused you a little bit but at this post I describe with total accuracy the results of the "wrist test".....

As I told you my left arm( and my left wrist consequently) is thinner that the right arm( and the right wrist) because I broke it twice when I was in adolescence and I put it in plaster for 7-8 months.

I think that I should take the right wrist( the bigger one) as an indicator. Do you have an opinion about whether this is the right decision or not?

From what you say I understand that not being able to encircle your wrist is quite rare and that it indicates that there is a quite heavy skeleton.....

But this whole "wring test" will be a reliable indicator only if I do it after losing the 12-17 kilos of extra fat, isn't this the case?

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Hey, this is supposed to be fun!

Indeed I try to enjoy it, but it is not always easy..........

I guess that you probably know this better than me...

You know there is anxiety, you know there is phychological pressure, you know that there is anxiety about how family and friends will react, about the financial burden...... you know that there is always the fear that the final result may be awful and the jealousy against other people who do not face the problem that you face.......

Indeed, one should try to overcome all this and enjoy it........

But sometimes it is quite difficult to do so...

Anyway, thanks for the information.....

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Hi Sakis:

Yes, there is a lot of stress and anxiety about this whole thing, but we can try to take it as lightly as possible.

I'll admit I'm different than most people on this forum. My priorities don't include dressing or passing.

If I do, fine. If my life continued as it is now I wouldn't have too many complaints. I would like SRS, though.

Coming out to my closest friend was the most stressful. After I burned that bridge it was much easier overall.

Now I'm at the point where I wonder if telling more remote friends is just being self indulgent.

See, I continue to dress like I always have, as a nominal man. I make a little effort to keep my breasts low key.

If I had to battle with the public constantly to prove what sex I was, I can imagine it would be tough.

I don't care what the public thinks. As long as they see my smile and say, "There's a friendly looking person."

Z.

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Guest Lethalia

Hello, Sakis...

Okay, I'm 1.82 m (almost 6 ft) tall and weigh 53.84 kg (almost 119 lbs). I have zero (0) body fat, a BMI of 16.1 and a BMI Prime if 0.644. I have no problem putting my middle finger and my thumb around my wrist… and placing my thumb between the last knuckle and the next knuckle of my middle finger… or touching the last knuckle of any finger with my thumb. I'm a skinny girl… and a fragile girl. This is genetic. I got it straight from my mother. Plus, I never ever get hungry. I have never ever known what such a thing feels like. Fainting (about every second or third day) tells me that it is time to eat. Okay, all of that sounds okay and fine. Except for one thing: my lack of weight also means lack of body fat on my face. And this exaggerates my features and makes me look more masculine. It also exaggerates my laryngeal prominence (Adam's apple). Hmmm… neither is very good (to say the least). But I hear I have great legs. Of course, losing some weight might be a good idea in your case. I don't know, I'm not a doctor. But I have noticed that many MTF transgender girls seem to have an easier time passing, in so far as in the face is concerned, when they have a little extra weight. In my non-professional opinion, I'd say go ahead and lose some weight… but not too much.

In so far as your height is concerned… I don't think it is a problem. As I mention prior, I'm 1.82 m (almost 6 ft) tall. Yes, I do wish I were just a little shorter. But it is what it is. Seriously, I have known so many GGs six feet and much taller. I've known more of them than I have fingers and toes (even in my dreams). So, I don't really see your height as a problem. I mean, me, I don't pass, but it is not because of my height. I do however avoid stilettos and Goth boots just the same (#&@%!). --- About your "big, heavy skeleton"… I have found that such a thing is pretty common to both sexes equally… as is being overweight (at least, in the U.S.).

In so far as passing is concerned. Passing would be wonderful. Really wonderful. But I don't. However, this in no way stops me or makes me shy about being in public as a woman… ever. I simply do not care what the general public thinks of me. I shop, I dine, I do everything. I simply try to enjoy life. And I will say that for the most part, the general public is very nice to me. I do, very often, receive offers from the very sweet (movie and dinner or simply coffee) to the obscene. I suspect this is true for most MTF Transgender girls. Personally, I would place the importance of passing AFTER the importance of living the gender of your choice. And Sakis, I think it would be to your advantage to see some sort of gender therapist to help you sort out your feelings (NOT decide for you) and perhaps help you plan your steps. I'm no authority on anything. But this is what I think. OXO.

In the meantime...

Isabella Lethalia

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Quote from Z...."I mean, if you're actively trying to get depressed over bones, consider the fact that none of us

will ever have the pelvic structure of a woman. 100 years after we're dead archaeologists will

point at our bones and say "That was a guy".

Z, :rolleyes: I guess I'll be cremated then....or will they be able to tell through DNA ?

Metta Jendar :)

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OK..

Let me throw something in the mix.

Becky,The woman who founded our local support group....

Was 6'6" and large framed."That's Six Foot Six Inches"...a very Tall Woman indeed.

She was also a highly decorated Special Forces Veteran.

Was...is because she passed a year ago from a non transition related condition.

The point being....She saw who she was,and lived her life accordingly.

As a very successful woman.

After retiring,she went on to earn a Phd in Anthropology.

And was a tenured professor at a local university.

She was an example of how i patterned my life.

Knowing who i am,and going for it.

Forget what anybody else may say about my choice.

It is right for me.

Angie.

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Thanks for sharing that, that is one of the biggest things I have to get over as I am 6'2" or 3" depending on who you ask. It has been a big part of my thought process and transition. I know people have said that they are out there, I am glad that someone knew an "amazon" so to be speak.

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Guest Shanetastic

I was really worried about that too at one time. I'm 6'1 right now and like 135. So yeah, I wish I was smaller, but whatever it's not something you can ever change so nothing to worry about.

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Try my 240 lbs on for a try, good thing I hide it well. I started my diet today and wondering what I shoud aim for? Don't quote BMI to me either, we gave up that years ago as it was unrealistic. I am thinking maybe 170? Any htoughts.

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Guest Kasandra

Day/Ducky - you've brought up a really good point and i'm not sure what all types of answer's there are for you. Especially since i'm in the USA n u'r in Greece (lovely country :) ) However, i would suggest doing some more research n bringing it up in meetings. I would also suggest contacting a gender therapist and start your counseling. But the biggest thing is seeing abt what your options are. Unfortunately, you might not turn out to be a Barbie doll but who wants too lol - but we are who we are n we can only be accepted when we accept ourselves :) Good luck and again we're here for you. Kasandra

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:rolleyes: Sophie, Jenny and any other members who are having a problem with their weight here's a little tip... How do you feel when you lose something? Unhappy ! Your sub conscious wants to make you happy not unhappy... REMEMBER...DON'T TRY TO 'LOSE' WEIGHT...THE OBJECTIVE IS TO 'OBTAIN' OR 'GAIN' AN HEALTHY WEIGHT FOR YOUR BONE STRUCTURE...DON'T CONFUSE YOUR SUB CONSCIOUS :wacko: ... Unless you compeltly change your lifestyle permanently[ and affirming ones true gender identity is a good way]-short term dieting won't work... you'll gain or obtain it all back... :unsure: sometimes your sub conscious will add a little extra...because it thinks that's what you really want !

Metta Jendar :)

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:rolleyes: Sophie, Jenny and any other members who are having a problem with their weight here's a little tip... How do you feel when you lose something? Unhappy ! Your sub conscious wants to make you happy not unhappy... REMEMBER...DON'T TRY TO 'LOSE' WEIGHT...THE OBJECTIVE IS TO 'OBTAIN' OR 'GAIN' AN HEALTHY WEIGHT FOR YOUR BONE STRUCTURE...DON'T CONFUSE YOUR SUB CONSCIOUS :wacko: ... Unless you compeltly change your lifestyle permanently[ and affirming ones true gender identity is a good way]-short term dieting won't work... you'll gain or obtain it all back... :unsure: sometimes your sub conscious will add a little extra...because it thinks that's what you really want !

Metta Jendar :)

Your perfectly right Jendar, you had written that in another post somewhere. As far as the diet fad, I have used it and it works well for me, it means a change in thought about food which I chose to ignore after I had lost the weight. It was designed for me by a nutritionist. NOthing special about it except watch what you eat.

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Hi Sakis,

I am 1,88m and 83 Kg, no problem at all. As I understand your thoughts is "can I ever pass as a woman". Wel try to figure it out.There are many things you can do before you undertake anything drastic.

Find a experienced Gender therapist first,I am sure there are some in Greece. In your post I see things like "at least sexually I feel like a female". But what is your Gender orientation? Do not stare at the successful transwoman, that's not the average .

You also talking about being a man changing sex, that worries me, is that what you want, being a man that changed sex??

Figure out what you really are before anything else. The final operation will not change anything in being passable or not. People can not look true your clothes.

A experienced gender therapist can help you finding out what you really are and can help you to come as close as possible to look like a woman and hopefully for you being a woman. There is a lot you can do to find out that are totally reversible.

Start with your face, Greek men usually have black facial hair on the body and the face, try get rid of it. Start doing your eyebrows in a more female shape. Let your hair grow and have a female hair cut.

The therapist can subscribe Androcur 150 mg (not used in the USA I think, that will stop testosterone production and start feminisation. Side effect: loosing muscle mass which is more important that getting thinner bones (that is impossible anyway). When stopped using, the effects will go away again. If it comes to SRS and the testicles are removed, the Oestrogene supply will take over.

What is your female size clothes? Buy some and buy some one size smaller and put the target that they should fit in xy weeks. (eating very femalish Greek salads instead of big male type of steaks).

I am shure that you will be a lot further and feeling more comfortable in your future decision, you should live as a woman long before you eventually undergo the SRS. If you face is not becoming female some feminisation facial surgery will also be possible. Don't overdue make up female only look at your hair and shoes. All the things in between are less important .

Success with your journey called life

Ellen

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Goeden dag ! Ellen,

It's possible Sakis's English is not fluent enough for her to express in the correct term when describing her gender disphoric state.

Ellen your English is great by the way...mind you most Dutch people I met when living in Holland spoke 'better english than me does!" :D

Metta Jendar :)

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Ms.Jendar,

Well said,well said indeed.

I plateaued at 150lbs,no matter my exercise or eating habits.

It wasn't until after transition started that my weight dropped to it's current 135lbs.

All that muscle bulk will start to shed,correspondingly your weight will drop.

Beware ladies,the average woman will gain between 11 and 14 lbs during transition.

Exercise and watch your weight.....Please.

A fit body is a curvy body.

Hugs Girls,

Angie.

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Goeden dag ! Ellen,

It's possible Sakis's English is not fluent enough for her to express in the correct term when describing her gender disphoric state.

Ellen your English is great by the way...mind you most Dutch people I met when living in Holland spoke 'better english than me does!" :D

Metta Jendar :)

Hi Metta Jendar,

What you mentioned can be the case. But I still think that finding an qualified Gender therapist will be the first thing to do for Sakis.

There is so mutch one can do to become more female before taking any kind of "medicine".

What do you thinK?

Well about my English, in the workinggroups a participated for the last 20 year, thay called it Dutshlish!!

Maybe the Duth are to much direct to the point. But all my friends and colleguas helped me to make my writings correct English. By the time they finished with that I have no clue what I said ;-)

In many cases in the past few years when I was asked "where do you live"I answered KLM Airlines Row 7 seat C. That was not of the truth, maybe a only a sew rows :-)

Kind Ellen

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      Just read in an LGBTQ Nation article where, yes. the thing about Furries is a characterization of Trans identities.  A political candidate in Colorado is the main shoot from the mouth person in that fracas.  She has over 30 state school districts and 3 organization of school administrators and superintendants telling her to go chase a cat, preferably a wild cat who will turn and chase her. 
    • Willow
      @Marcie Jensen @Billie75B my E levels tanked three months ago.  I just did blood work yesterday for new numbers. If they are still in the tank, we will change things but it’s been a fight with my endo and he’s the only one I can go to.  This state likes to make it very difficult for doctors to help transgenders.
    • Russ Fenrisson
      Definitely, definitely. This seems very illegal and very invasive. It can already be embarrassing enough having a monthly and having it start at inconvenient times, and having documentation like this might actually embarrass an athlete and cause them- on the extreme side- to consider dropping athletic sports if that's how they're going to be treated. Really, it shouldn't be a school's business when a student experiences such a process or when they had it last. That's only important to the parents- if the student is comfortable with sharing such information- and doctors if a medical emergency occurs. No athlete should be barred under the basis of a process not everyone goes through. There are some girls who don't get monthlies or as often as other people.
    • KathyLauren
      If anyone opts out of answering, they will be branded as trans, and discrimination will follow.  The whole point is to identify trans people.
    • Russ Fenrisson
      At the time I went to see the counselor, I don't think the trans condition was very well understood or thought of as important. And it really isn't right for a therapist to make that kind of 'deal' situation with their client. Often, one issue causes another and they can't be singly ignored or favored for another.    I saw mentioned somewhere about interviewing a therapist before actually starting treatment. It genuinely sounds like a good idea, especially since you'll be seeing them for a time. I don't like the feeling I'm conducting an interrogation, but I'll have to get over that if I want to get better. And, maybe, the therapist won't mind either.   I'll remember to ask about that too. Where I live, there are few therapists available that work with transgender issues. I just hope they can help those that are FtM. My one concern is the therapist having a negative reaction towards me. It's probably in my head, but if I run into a similar situation as I related before, I might be mortified.
    • Russ Fenrisson
      @VickySGVSounds like a pretty funny situation. I've never been to a Furry event before but they look like fun. I've met a few Furries in person in the past and they're really cool, creative people.   @awkward-yet-sweetHaha! That's a funny one!    @Marcie JensenThat sounds like a funny sketch. I've always been a fan of puns.
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