Jump to content
  • Welcome to the TransPulse Forums!

    We offer a safe, inclusive community for transgender and gender non-conforming folks, as well as their loved ones, to find support and information.  Join today!

The Trans Panic Defense


Charlize

Recommended Posts

I suspect if I read the paper, it would basically say "it is not a reasonable excuse for provocation" in a very long-winded legal thinking sort of way, and the parts about explanations to jurors come down to "here is how to tell people it is not a reasonable excuse for provocation."

It mentions the ABA move towards limiting this type of defense. I will say, as a defense attorney, I would never use it. It is unethical. Full stop.

There shouldn't be any need to educate jurors of anything, because it simply should not be used. It is not a reasonable excuse for provocation.

Link to comment

Thank you for posting this info. I hope this horrible excuse is made illegal to use. It's sickening that someone even came up with it in the first place.

Link to comment
  • Admin

While I agree with Ravin that the defense should not be used, I am not naive enough to believe that it will not ever be. For many defense attorneys, if there is no ethical or legal reason why it shouldn't be used, and it might prove successful as a tactic, then sooner or later it will be used.

There was a time not so long ago when it was perfectly acceptable in rape trials to bring up the victim's sexual history, or to discuss what she was wearing at the time, as "provocations" that led the defendant to commit the rape. Over time, laws changed as did judicial rulings, making such tactics either unethical, illegal or both. There will come a day when the same will be true of the gay panic or trans panic defense. There may already be some states that have outlawed it, but I'm not sure.

Carolyn Marie

Link to comment
  • Admin

It is illegal to use the defense here in California. This came about partly from a case in Ventura County where a boy who was tried as an adult killed a suspected gay/Trans* fellow student with a revolver to the base of the skull. The decedent had been flirting with his killer in an effeminate way for a couple of days. The defense hung up the jury, but the decision was 10 to 2 in favor of conviction, and a plea bargain was made on that basis. Most of the jury did not buy the defense.

Link to comment
Guest clearleeraines

My two cents, Our judicial system is 200+ yrs old, It was/is a good one. 200 yrs no changes no reforms or very little. The politicians/lawers make the laws. They have learned how to use this to get elected to public office. Then they learned the wealthy would pay to get a law passed, lobbying. Now greed has a foothold. The moral majority is neither!. From big corp's and the goverment to your local city counssl!

corruption reigns, The defense, This defense was, I have very little doubt started, to defend someone of wealth! It worked, money/greed.

Our court system is swamped with crime, the system works 40+ hrs a week, cops, prosecutors, ect. They plea bargan over 90 %!

ONCE AGAIN 90%. So if you know the system, and have money, NO PROBLEM, or if you know the system and can manipulate the system i.e. file a million motions, get postponements, fire you P.D. Drag it out. They have no choice but to come at you with a DEAL! to make you go away! Just like the BAD cops and lazy prosecuters, and even worse the P.D.'S.

OUR SYSTEM IS BROKE PEOPLE!. There is no accountabilty, who questions the police? Who questions a Judge? whos got the money? I lived 3/4 of my life sheltered, a militery brat overseas, and growing up in alaska, A good life heathy life. A MANS LIFE :unsure: .

I was raised with morals "christian parents" middle class, I am not a felon or a criminal UNLESS you count my remaining silent when I saw people being screwed because they are black, poor, gay, trans, I have not seen one person with wealth get screwed, EVER!

My crime? keeping silent about it, cuz i don't want you to know about me! my drugs and boose, my sexual identity, my gender identity!

THEN IT HAPPENED TO ME !!!. The police in other nations, nations much much older than this one, with greater populations than this one, with a quarter of the crime as this one, I KNOW I'VE LIVED THERE! don't even carry guns! . . . . . . .I AM BI-SEXUAL, I AM TRAN'S, I AM WHITE, I AM POOR, I AM A ADDICT, I AM NO LONGER SILENT!!!!! :superman: eh hem! superperson.

Mx Clear Lee Raines, God Bless the usa it needs it!

Link to comment
  • Forum Moderator

Just a note on this defense and what it means to me. I posted it not only because of the nasty reality of how we may be perceived but because of the danger of being attractive to a cis gendered person who is also homophobic or transphobic. I have seen several posts at Laura's asking about coming out to potential boyfriends. The fact that this defense even has been tried should emphasize how important early honesty can be. We shouldn't have this potential excuse for hate in existence but until (if) things change caution is very important. Hate, alcohol, and drugs often add up to violence. Please be careful. Wacko's do exist.

Hugs,

Charlize

Link to comment

My two cents, Our judicial system is 200+ yrs old, It was/is a good one. 200 yrs no changes no reforms or very little. The politicians/lawers make the laws. They have learned how to use this to get elected to public office. Then they learned the wealthy would pay to get a law passed, lobbying. Now greed has a foothold. The moral majority is neither!. From big corp's and the goverment to your local city counssl!

corruption reigns, The defense, This defense was, I have very little doubt started, to defend someone of wealth! It worked, money/greed.

Our court system is swamped with crime, the system works 40+ hrs a week, cops, prosecutors, ect. They plea bargan over 90 %!

ONCE AGAIN 90%. So if you know the system, and have money, NO PROBLEM, or if you know the system and can manipulate the system i.e. file a million motions, get postponements, fire you P.D. Drag it out. They have no choice but to come at you with a DEAL! to make you go away! Just like the BAD cops and lazy prosecuters, and even worse the P.D.'S.

OUR SYSTEM IS BROKE PEOPLE!. There is no accountabilty, who questions the police? Who questions a Judge? whos got the money? I lived 3/4 of my life sheltered, a militery brat overseas, and growing up in alaska, A good life heathy life. A MANS LIFE :unsure: .

I was raised with morals "christian parents" middle class, I am not a felon or a criminal UNLESS you count my remaining silent when I saw people being screwed because they are black, poor, gay, trans, I have not seen one person with wealth get screwed, EVER!

My crime? keeping silent about it, cuz i don't want you to know about me! my drugs and boose, my sexual identity, my gender identity!

THEN IT HAPPENED TO ME !!!. The police in other nations, nations much much older than this one, with greater populations than this one, with a quarter of the crime as this one, I KNOW I'VE LIVED THERE! don't even carry guns! . . . . . . .I AM BI-SEXUAL, I AM TRAN'S, I AM WHITE, I AM POOR, I AM A ADDICT, I AM NO LONGER SILENT!!!!! :superman: eh hem! superperson.

Mx Clear Lee Raines, God Bless the usa it needs it!

This is not accurate in several respects. Yes, the criminal justice system needs improvement, and there are biases and imbalances, which are worse some places than others.

However, it is NOT true that the system has never been reformed. It has been many times, and continues to be.

And, while yes, there are problem people to be found in any position, from beat cops to judges, it is not true that the majority of people in these positions are not professional and don't do the best they can at it.

Even those doing the best they can often have unconscious biases which lend to something less than justice being done, and the laws themselves often structure the system in ways that do nothing about the underlying problems which contribute to crime. We criminalize things that would better be handled other ways, like homelessness and drug addiction.

When you get caught up in the criminal justice system, as either a defendant or the victim of a crime, it can seem especially unfair when you do not feel heard.

Also, plea offers many places get less favorable the longer you drag out a case and the more motions are filed, etc., the closer it gets to trial.

Link to comment

While I agree with Ravin that the defense should not be used, I am not naive enough to believe that it will not ever be. For many defense attorneys, if there is no ethical or legal reason why it shouldn't be used, and it might prove successful as a tactic, then sooner or later it will be used.

There was a time not so long ago when it was perfectly acceptable in rape trials to bring up the victim's sexual history, or to discuss what she was wearing at the time, as "provocations" that led the defendant to commit the rape. Over time, laws changed as did judicial rulings, making such tactics either unethical, illegal or both. There will come a day when the same will be true of the gay panic or trans panic defense. There may already be some states that have outlawed it, but I'm not sure.

Carolyn Marie

The American Bar Association has come down on the side of "it's unethical" and argued why. Each jurisdiction makes its own decisions about that, though, and each bar. So it can take time for some places to catch up. I for one would withdraw from a case rather than assert such a defense, if a client felt that it's use was the only avenue for zealous defense.

Link to comment
Guest clearleeraines

My two cents, Our judicial system is 200+ yrs old, It was/is a good one. 200 yrs no changes no reforms or very little. The politicians/lawers make the laws. They have learned how to use this to get elected to public office. Then they learned the wealthy would pay to get a law passed, lobbying. Now greed has a foothold. The moral majority is neither!. From big corp's and the goverment to your local city counssl!

corruption reigns, The defense, This defense was, I have very little doubt started, to defend someone of wealth! It worked, money/greed.

Our court system is swamped with crime, the system works 40+ hrs a week, cops, prosecutors, ect. They plea bargan over 90 %!

ONCE AGAIN 90%. So if you know the system, and have money, NO PROBLEM, or if you know the system and can manipulate the system i.e. file a million motions, get postponements, fire you P.D. Drag it out. They have no choice but to come at you with a DEAL! to make you go away! Just like the BAD cops and lazy prosecuters, and even worse the P.D.'S.

OUR SYSTEM IS BROKE PEOPLE!. There is no accountabilty, who questions the police? Who questions a Judge? whos got the money? I lived 3/4 of my life sheltered, a militery brat overseas, and growing up in alaska, A good life heathy life. A MANS LIFE :unsure: .

I was raised with morals "christian parents" middle class, I am not a felon or a criminal UNLESS you count my remaining silent when I saw people being screwed because they are black, poor, gay, trans, I have not seen one person with wealth get screwed, EVER!

My crime? keeping silent about it, cuz i don't want you to know about me! my drugs and boose, my sexual identity, my gender identity!

THEN IT HAPPENED TO ME !!!. The police in other nations, nations much much older than this one, with greater populations than this one, with a quarter of the crime as this one, I KNOW I'VE LIVED THERE! don't even carry guns! . . . . . . .I AM BI-SEXUAL, I AM TRAN'S, I AM WHITE, I AM POOR, I AM A ADDICT, I AM NO LONGER SILENT!!!!! :superman: eh hem! superperson.

Mx Clear Lee Raines, God Bless the usa it needs it!

This is not accurate in several respects. Yes, the criminal justice system needs improvement, and there are biases and imbalances, which are worse some places than others.

However, it is NOT true that the system has never been reformed. It has been many times, and continues to be.

And, while yes, there are problem people to be found in any position, from beat cops to judges, it is not true that the majority of people in these positions are not professional and don't do the best they can at it.

Even those doing the best they can often have unconscious biases which lend to something less than justice being done, and the laws themselves often structure the system in ways that do nothing about the underlying problems which contribute to crime. We criminalize things that would better be handled other ways, like homelessness and drug addiction.

When you get caught up in the criminal justice system, as either a defendant or the victim of a crime, it can seem especially unfair when you do not feel heard.

Also, plea offers many places get less favorable the longer you drag out a case and the more motions are filed, etc., the closer it gets to trial.

You Obviously have had no experience on defendant end ?. And what reform would you be referring too ?. Nothings really been done since "peel" and the police 1920 ?. They rotated the cops around because there was corruption then!. Have YOU ever been in a CA. State prison ?. Have YOU ever been homeless ?. I think the now viral video of the female student's violent attack speaks for it self. I was in the state system for just a short time and saw officer perpetrated crimes that make that video look innocent many times. ASK ANYONE WHO'S EVER HAD A NUMBER!!!. How creative are you with pepper spray and a baton ?. Tazer anyone ?. No one really has ANY idea, until it happens to you! I didn't. Put a second on the house, sell the car's, and find a "good" lawyer if you can ?. And by all means live with your video device, phone whatever, night and day and use it. Protect and serve. Honesty and integrity. Justice if you can afford it! Guilty till proven paid innocent. It ain't like tv people. Those who defend the system are Ignorant and pretentious and BRAINWASHED!. I now know what I took for granted, dos not exist!. ok thats my latest rant I feel better :)

The Clear one

Link to comment

Yes, there has been reform. Important reforms have come both through judicial enforcement of constitutional law (cases like Gideon v. Wainwright and Miranda v. Arizona), and through legislation. Some reforms have been good, some not so good. 200 years ago there were basically just a handful of common law felonies most places, and the sentence for all of them was death, usually by hanging.

I don't have experience in California, but I actually went to law school and became a public defender after my husband got a raw deal with the criminal justice system. He took a plea for something he didn't do because he didn't want to risk 12 years in prison if he fought and lost, because his attorney couldn't be bothered to do her job and he didn't trust her with it. I decided to go to law school because I knew I could do better than what we saw (his PD didn't even show up to court a couple of times, never mind actually do a proper client interview or give him a good explanation of what he was up against as far as evidence and trial ability of his case).

There's a reason I said it can feel especially unfair if you feel unheard in the process. That has pretty obviously been your experience.

I very clearly stated that the system has problems. That does not mean it has not changed in 200 years. It has, and there are people continuing to fight for change to improve it, as well as more people working in it who mean well than who don't.

You are very right that it isn't like on TV.

Link to comment
  • 1 month later...
Guest Clair Dufour

It should be noted that this defence is used on jury trials where the jury has much more leeway. Judges have to work with rule of law and precedence. Also, its often an excuse for the drug and sex trade gangs that many TG people find themselves involved in to survive.

Link to comment
  • 3 months later...

I'm curious, what are the usually accepted causes for reasonable "heat of passion"? I personally think this wouldn't apply, because violent rage over finding out someone isn't who you thought they were? Come on now, that's not reasonable "heat of passion" in the slightest, not in my opinion at least.

Link to comment
  • Admin

I'm curious, what are the usually accepted causes for reasonable "heat of passion"?

A couple of examples that come to mind include: Discovering one's spouse in bed with their lover; an angry argument over whose sports team was better (only half kidding there); or a violent argument over a traffic collision.

That doesn't mean any of these reasons excuses would fly in a court of law, but they've all been tried.

Carolyn Marie

Link to comment
  • Admin

Most "First Degree"crimes with the longest jail or even death penalty consequences require "malice aforethought" to be involved, which means a long standing hatred for their specific victim, or group of victims and they require preparation and planning to commit the crime at a specific opportunity. It is a goodly list. A legitimate defense to all of this is a Self Defense situation where you feared for your life and property and/or the life and property of another person

Trans* (Gay, LesbianPanic ) Defense is a "self defense" attempt that tries to make the victim the initial aggressor who was intent on harming the defendant in a criminal case and subjecting the defendant to great harm. The idea is that for some people, the knowledge that they had sex with a Trans* person has irreparably injured them and will forever handicap them in their community and make them targets or hatred and ridicule or even rejection from their communities. There are some areas where a man soliciting a non-trans prostitute is looked on as just a normal great guy male having fun. (To heck with his marriage.) Change the sex partner and he becomes a community outcast for being Homosexual. Pretty squirrely as you see.

By now if you are not about to make a desperate run to the toilet, you can get a picture of some really crazy ideas and misconceptions people have of Trans* people. The American Bar Association did declare that it was un-ethical for its members to use it in behalf of a client, several years ago and California added a law that makes it an illegal defense in state courts and can subject the attorney advancing it subject to discipline.

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Who's Online   4 Members, 0 Anonymous, 105 Guests (See full list)

    • Mmindy
    • Markianor
    • April Marie
    • Petra Jane
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      80.5k
    • Total Posts
      767.2k
  • Member Statistics

    • Total Members
      11,939
    • Most Online
      8,356

    Chaidoesart
    Newest Member
    Chaidoesart
    Joined
  • Today's Birthdays

    1. **Angela Charlotte **
      **Angela Charlotte **
    2. Carlie
      Carlie
      (63 years old)
    3. Cbxshawn
      Cbxshawn
      (49 years old)
    4. HannahO
      HannahO
      (31 years old)
    5. JustKatie
      JustKatie
      (40 years old)
  • Posts

    • Mirrabooka
      I hope y'all look at this one. A catchy tune released at the end of Covid lockdown. Scarlett is so cute!!!     
    • Heather Shay
    • Mirrabooka
    • Mirrabooka
      Had a weird dream last night.
    • Mirrabooka
      Morning, y'all. Evening here; we had the regulation three mugs full today. Now it's time to drink something else.     No big plans here either, eldest daughter and granddaughter will be arriving on Saturday, and we will have our granddaughter to ourselves for a week after that. We still have plans though. Tuesday we'll go to the swim center, Wednesday we'll take a road trip to visit my mom, Thursday we'll get some mulch delivered to top up the gardens.   I still make other small plans on a daily basis though. The things I do plan nowadays, which is a bit new for me, is that after pinching a nerve and ending up in a bit of pain and getting some treatment from the physio, I am more motivated than ever to exercise more regularly. Tuesday for example, I went for a short (15 minute) early morning walk, went to the pool for some hydrotherapy, and mowed the lawns. Yesterday I did my exercise reps and spent some time on the exercise bike. Today, I went for a 45-minute walk, tomorrow I will do my reps again and go for a long bike ride. As long as I do at least one thing every day, right? The pleasing thing is that I'm losing weight! I blew out to above 95kg early in the year and I'm just under 91kg now. Yay me!
    • Heather Shay
      What one piece of advice would you give to beginning transitioners or considering transition?
    • Heather Shay
      Positive side of the mixed bag.
    • Heather Shay
      Boredom is an emotional state that comes when a person has nothing to do, and is not interested in anything. To stop boredom, most people do something to occupy or amuse themselves. The first known use of the word boredom is in the novel Bleak House by Charles Dickens, written in 1852, but the saying to be a bore had been used to mean "to be tiresome or dull" since 1768. When referring to the mind, boredom is a bad state in which the person feels a deep lack of interest in what is going on around them, and where it is hard to focus.
    • Heather Shay
    • Heather Shay
    • Heather Shay
    • Mirrabooka
      ^ Your story gives inspiration to others.
    • April Marie
      Growing stronger and confident every day.
    • April Marie
      So, yesterday's epiphany was that girl jeans fit me much nicer than boy jeans. Well, duh! So this girl is switching over to wearing girl jeans pretty much full time. I'll keep my others for work jeans. We went out to dinner last evening and I was in androgynous mode...wearing a pair of Bandolino Amy straight leg denim pants. Score!
    • April Marie
      Good morning, everyone!! The coffee upload has started for me but just in the early stages so I'm barely coherent at this point.   You've been missed @Willow - I hope all is going well with your wife and at work.   @awkward-yet-sweet We love to make beans with rice - one of our favorite meals.   No big plans for me today. Small projects around our place and probably some reading. We're going to have some rain off and on, and the temps are still too low for a lot of outdoor work.   Be safe and enjoy this beautiful day we've been given!!
  • Upcoming Events

Contact TransPulse

TransPulse can be contacted in the following ways:

Email: Click Here.

To report an error on this page.

Legal

Your use of this site is subject to the following rules and policies, whether you have read them or not.

Terms of Use
Privacy Policy
DMCA Policy
Community Rules

Hosting

Upstream hosting for TransPulse provided by QnEZ.

Sponsorship

Special consideration for TransPulse is kindly provided by The Breast Form Store.
×
×
  • Create New...