Jump to content
  • Welcome to the TransPulse Forums!

    We offer a safe, inclusive community for transgender and gender non-conforming folks, as well as their loved ones, to find support and information.  Join today!

Article on Native American Trans* folks


Charlize

Recommended Posts

  • Admin

As a trained anthropologist, and a trans person, I found the article very interesting. I do wonder whether "two-spirit" individuals were treated the same across most, or all Native American cultures. There were differences in religious and cultural practices, especially between widely physically separated tribes. I am skeptical about any claims that all Native American peoples were uniform in their approach to most anything. In fact, I have spoken with Mayan people, who tell me that they do not recognize "two-spirit" people in their culture. It is easy to make generalizations.

Thanks for posting this, Charlize.

Carolyn Marie

Link to comment

I think it is an over-generalization to assume it was universal--what was universal was the Christianization process very nearly wiping out such identities as acceptable to one degree or another, whether they existed or not.

Many Navajos have no idea there is any such thing, though a judge mentioned to me that Nadleehi (can't spell properly on the board) were valued as the best teachers for children, and mentioned her family having a hired tutor who was nadleehi when she was a child, who taught them horseback riding as well as weaving (traditionally a women's art among the Navajos).

It's also ridiculous to assert that there were no gender roles in First Nations societies before Europeans came along. Those roles looked different than European roles, and different from one tribe to another, but if they didn't exist, neither would the understanding of people who transgressed them.

I know the complementary duality of male and female genders and sexes is deeply embedded in Navajo thinking and philosophy; the word nadleehi means "one who is transformed" and recognizes the transformation of someone's social roles. Their terms also translate well to "female-bodied man" and "male-bodied woman."

It's also simplistic to directly correlate modern conceptual understanding of transgender identity with two-spirit identity. The medical transition many of us undergo is distinctly modern and many traditional cultures with intact third gender or two spirit identities are in the process of figuring out how the concepts relate to each other.

Link to comment
  • Forum Moderator

Thank you for sharing that Ravin. I'm learning.

Hugs,

Charlize

Link to comment

Have read a great deal concerning two spirit people.

Thanks for your words, Ravin. Over generalizations contribute to all kinds of social stigma. No group of people is without vice.

This is a good discussion. Thank you Charlize for posting it!

Do-hi-yi !

Link to comment

Interesting articles. Although there is some generalization, what jumps out at me is how religion had such a hand in destroying a culture and belief system that was different. So sad, and it continues on even today.

Link to comment
  • 3 months later...
On July 8, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Briana said:

Interesting articles. Although there is some generalization, what jumps out at me is how religion had such a hand in destroying a culture and belief system that was different. So sad, and it continues on even today.

You know, I do not believe it is ever 'religion' that destroys anything. Religion, like any other thing in life, can be used for good or for ill. It is the within the hands of the weilder that the determination is made.  Like guns. 

If you want to talk about culture and belief systems being destroyed, we include the likes of Josef Stalin, Pol Pot, Augusto Pinochet, Idi Amin and Mao Zedong (and many others) who committed some of humanity's greatest atrocities. Religion? Nope. 

People destroy people.

:(

Link to comment
  • 1 month later...
On 7/7/2016 at 5:18 PM, Charlize said:

Hhmmm....I disagree

On 7/7/2016 at 6:08 PM, Carolyn Marie said:

As a trained anthropologist, and a trans person, I found the article very interesting. I do wonder whether "two-spirit" individuals were treated the same across most, or all Native American cultures. There were differences in religious and cultural practices, especially between widely physically separated tribes. I am skeptical about any claims that all Native American peoples were uniform in their approach to most anything. In fact, I have spoken with Mayan people, who tell me that they do not recognize "two-spirit" people in their culture. It is easy to make generalizations.

Thanks for posting this, Charlize.

Carolyn Marie

I'm more inclined to agree w/ this reply.  I don't know about training, but I had undergraduate and graduate studies in both anthropology and sociology before I decided to do other things so I think I can give a relatively educated opinion that the article linked in the initial post progressively stretches the imagination.  While I'm not one to usually engage in ad hominem like arguments, I quickly noted the title and subtitle of the journal/magazine in which the linked article was "printed."

Personally, I've never heard of any such two-spirit/transgender traditions in my mother's peoples.

[No special bone to pick w/ re: to the notion of "two-spirts" here.  Just happened to be looking at old posts/threads and this one caught my eye.]

 

;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
  • Forum Moderator

Thank you for your post Tejana.  It echoes those of other members and perhaps may provide some additional incites.   I am certainly no expert on the Native American acceptance of gender issues which is why i felt this article with it's mention of different tribal attitudes was interesting.  I haven doubt that, as in our own society, there are large variations .

 

Hugs,

 

Charlize

Link to comment
  • 2 months later...
Guest Squallsong

I have to agree with Carolyn Marie on this one...skepticism.

In reference to Lakota "Winkte", they fail to acknowledge that the Lakota woman was under no defined set of gender rules (Siouxan peoples are like most plains peoples, their women held high station and authority) and for that reason it was widely acceptable that they took whatever role suited them, while less masculine men were restricted from typical male roles (and for this reason were defined separate from male).  Algonquian peoples had a "coming of age" ceremony for males (which involved a prolonged overdose of datura) to rid males of their memory (and literally killed any femininity a male had).  Southeastern tribes held a belief in three genders (and three spirits which collectively defined which gender the individual was)...the list is infinite...and a generalization such as the five stated (a Southwestern belief) is not universally accurate.  Most tribes embraced their "two spirit" members, and it was not until colonization that this changed.

European society was based on patriarchal and aristocratic hierarchy, and the collective beliefs of Native Peoples was a direct assault upon the entire European culture.  With colonization came religious doctrines which vilified all non-binary people.  Native men embraced the notion as it brought power and station to them, in contradiction to the equality that had traditionally maintained their culture and society.  Europeans used religion to fuel a revolution within Native cultures, so that feminism could be eradicated for another three centuries...and any non-binary notions could be quashed for another four.

Even today, there is a great deal of denial of the "two spirit" within many Native cultures despite growing evidence to the contrary.  Mayan is particularly noteworthy, as they had a ruling class when the Spanish arrived, and their oppressors took extreme steps to eliminate trans and gay people, while rewarding those in power for assisting in that goal.

The article does spread the ideals of acceptance though and it introduces at least one accurate description of the notion of "two spirit" to Europe through a page regarding religion, so in that respect, it is decidedly a good thing.

Be well and take care!

Squallsong

Link to comment
  • Forum Moderator

Thank you Squallsong and others.  This is interesting and helps me understand a culture we in America are unfortunately not fully exposed to.

Jani

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Who's Online   5 Members, 1 Anonymous, 135 Guests (See full list)

    • Adrianna Danielle
    • Mmindy
    • VickySGV
    • Pip
    • RaineOnYourParade
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      80.8k
    • Total Posts
      770.5k
  • Member Statistics

    • Total Members
      12,115
    • Most Online
      8,356

    Tiffany Cross
    Newest Member
    Tiffany Cross
    Joined
  • Today's Birthdays

    1. Alex Blitzen
      Alex Blitzen
    2. ARK
      ARK
      (37 years old)
    3. Beverley50
      Beverley50
      (58 years old)
    4. Em
      Em
    5. Jlandry1970
      Jlandry1970
  • Posts

    • VickySGV
      I for one am actually pleased with how this one played out.  Local issues need to remain local and I am not on the States Rights bandwagon for all cases.  The facts of the matter did not constitute a case or controversy since the plaintiffs did not show actual or immediately impending harm to their children.  Now if the parents can show that the child had developed some type of sleep and eating disorder because they were in a bathroom with a Trans child or are involved in self harm over the idea (which is probably the parent's doing and not the school) then there might be something of a case or controversy for the court to take up.   I have six text books on U.S. Constitutional Law grinning down evilly at me that all say the SCOTUS should avoid this type of case, and shows where they have done it consistently for a couple of centuries. 
    • Ladypcnj
      When I was a kid growing up, I was considered the baby sibling of the family. I was often the last to know of everything, and since I wasn't old enough just yet to stay home by myself, I had to tagged along with my family members who drove their cars, this included going to church. I never knew other religions existed; all I knew was about the teachings of Christianity. It's easy to join a church, but what if things aren't what it appears to be than what is preached? Strange things began going on at the church in which group leaders didn't want the news media to know about it, such as an almost drowning during a baptizing among other things. The preacher/minister began to sense I wanted out of the cult. Followers that was nice to me in the beginning, was now talking behind my back, not encouraging me to find another church that I would feel more spiritually connected to.     
    • Ivy
      An option to opt out is one thing, but removing the content entirely (for everyone) is something different.  I don't think it's beneficial to isolate one's kids from the broader culture since they are going to have to live in it eventually.  If something about it bothers you, you need to explain why.  Pretending it doesn't exist is a disservice to them.   In my (and my ex's) more conservative past, we considered homeschooling.  But we also realized our kids had to live in the broader culture and needed the socialization. Two of my adult children do homeschool now.  I have mixed feelings about that. Another of them is a public school teacher.   I personally would prefer that scarce resources not be diverted from public education.  The current move against public education bothers me.  For many kids it's all they have. 
    • April Marie
      Looking in the mirror brings joy.   The woman smiles back at me.
    • Charlize
      Perhaps a bit of light might exist if i look at this as a further verification that simply disliking the existence of a school's policy is not a reason to sue.  The rights of these parents or their children are not harmed.  They simply cannot dictate policy because of dubious beliefs.   Hugs,   Charlize
    • Mmindy
      Life has its twist, and who knows what the future holds. She may only want to know your family and medical history’s long term chronic health history. Then again she may become your biggest supporter in your current life situation.   I am an optimist. So much so that if you put me in a room full of puppy poo, I’m going to look for the puppies.    Hugs and best wishes,   Mindy🌈🐛🏳️‍⚧️🦋
    • Charlize
      Managing a support group takes a great deal of work.  When i found this site there were ,to my knowledge, only 2 sites that supported anyone whose gender was out of the "norm".  I had searched before and only found porn.  i'd almost given up. I hope that you are finding what you need here.   Hugs,   Charlize
    • RaineOnYourParade
      This also isn't necessarily trans-positive in itself. They're just saying the case doesn't have strong enough ground to sue because the plaintiff didn't bring enough evidence to court. Basically, that could mean that, rather than not wanting to do the case, they feel that there is insufficient information given to do so. By leaving the suit be, it also leaves no precedent for future cases to be built off of. This just leaves holes for court to get messier in the future. Precedent is essential in all types of cases. Giving a ruling, one way or another, would be pretty essential to building cases of the same nature in the future. By letting this go, they aren't really supporting trans people -- they're just dismissing the issue all together, which, in reality, doesn't help either side of it. 
    • RaineOnYourParade
      I don't personally agree with people opting out of LGBT education, but I suppose it would depend on the context it was taught in. Parents do have the right to opt their children out of sex ed and such for various reasons, so if it was taught in line with sex ed (which would make sense, as those classes also cover puberty as well as sometimes relationship health, so it would be about in-line with how heterosexual students are taught about their own types of relationships), I would understand them then being able to opt out. Similarly, parents often have options to opt their child out of reading books with "disturbing" content, so if the novels chosen for LGBT discussion have a large focus on homophobia/etc., an opt-out option might be made available due to the intensity of the content rather than the content itself. I've seen these for books like To Kill a Mockingbird and All-American Boys that discuss racism in-depth, as some parents might not be comfortable with their child/teenager reading intense content. I disagree with the choices to opt-out of reading these books since I think they're important, but I do understand why they're provided.   So, I think whether an opt-out option would be provided for these topics would depend on the way that they were presented. I didn't see anything in the article saying where the topics were being presented (though correct me if I'm wrong). Are they being talked about in sex ed or in content that may be considered disturbing? In that case, it wouldn't necessarily be LGBT-phobic legislation, per se -- It's about in line with what is in line for dozens of topics. 
    • Birdie
      I feel much better after a nice nap, breakfast, and a cup of tea.    I go to see a specialist today at the hospital, so I won't be at the day-centre till this afternoon. ☺️
    • RaineOnYourParade
      G'morning! Green tea for my morning beverage. My mom made me eat breakfast so I could take a pill... and now I feel sick, thanks to my weird stomach .-.   Stomach issues aside, I signed up for a story gift exchange a little while ago and just got in the story with four minutes to spare! Liiiiittle close for comfort, but, hey, it's in!   We're at that point in the school year where we aren't doing much. AP testing is done for my history class, so we're watching a WWII film rn (Dunkirk). My college course is already over as well (the semester ends earlier), so I've really only got two classes to worry about, and one of those is an art class. Lowest stress I've had all year.
    • Heather Shay
      Another Hidden Treasure I heard for the first time today. Well written, wonderful vocals and nice instrumental work throughot and even covered two Dalton and Dubarri songs.  
    • Ladypcnj
      I noticed that there is not too many online intersex support groups?  
    • Lydia_R
    • Heather Shay
      Which emotion seems to be the strongest in your life and is it good or bad?
  • Upcoming Events

Contact TransPulse

TransPulse can be contacted in the following ways:

Email: Click Here.

To report an error on this page.

Legal

Your use of this site is subject to the following rules and policies, whether you have read them or not.

Terms of Use
Privacy Policy
DMCA Policy
Community Rules

Hosting

Upstream hosting for TransPulse provided by QnEZ.

Sponsorship

Special consideration for TransPulse is kindly provided by The Breast Form Store.
×
×
  • Create New...