Good morning All. Coffees on.

[Willow]

1 hour ago, Vidanjali said:

Hi all. I was away on a little road trip vacation for a few days. We returned Wed afternoon. I have Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome (a connective tissue disease) and so don't do great with car trips. (Was a destination wedding, so the destination was not my choice.) Once we returned home I was dealing with some pain issues and strength deconditioning. I'm making progress, and even did some yard work and swimming yesterday, and some step cardio today. My husband and I had some intimate conversations about sex & gender during our trip. That was wonderful - I feel like we're closer and understand each other that much more. I'll fill in some details at some other point. 

 

I also think the throwing around "trans" this and that as a joke is harmful and not funny. Something occurred to me. People seem to think that if they don't "get" something, that it follows that it's not real. E.g. "I don't get this being trans thing", says a cis person. Then, their conclusion is it's fake. I don't think any cis person can really "get it", necessarily. What people need to learn is that acceptance doesn't require you to get it. It does require one to apply empathy and respect, and those are skills that are not necessarily innate, but can be learned. 

I really only wanted to quote the second paragraph here.  For some reason I couldn’t select just that.

 

i think you hit the nail dead center on the head.  They don't understand so just like the anti Vader’s, the decide it isn't a real thing.  Even those who still respect us don't get it and still think its not real.

[Heather Nicole]

This is the first I've heard that "joke" being dog-based. Usually it's an "attack helicopter". I guess they moved on from helicopters when they realised they could get some fat-shaming in there as well. I lost the last little bit of respect I used to have for South Park when they did a whole episode like that (only it was a dolphin and a basketball player).

 

It's nothing more than the transphobic version of "well, if they can marry, then I can marry my lawnmower." Some people just don't like to think. Nice simple "theories" for simple minds.

 

Peraonally, I love drag though. It's a performance art, and I consider kings/queens our cousins: Both groups are birth-sex nonconformists. There's plenty of trans people, too, who start out being drawn to drag and finally realize through doing drag they're trans after all. Also, a big part of the history of modern drag involves gay men saying to the homophobics, "Oh, so you think I'm effeminate and that bothers you? Well then, I'll show you just how effeminate I can be!" and just owning that.

[LaurenA]

7 hours ago, Willow said:

I have a question for ya’ll.  I get offended by some things which I feel are taking a shot at us.  For example, a joke on Facebook showed a fat dog and the caption was “I identify as trans slim”.  Or I don’t like female impersonators.  They are nothing like us yet they were allowed to advertise their show on on a transgender only secret website.  Am I overly sensitive?  Is it wrong to feel these sorts of things are offensive to me?  Let me know what you think.let me know if I’m being overly sensitive with things I think are slaps at us.

 

Willow

 

Hi Willow,

I think I may be the odd woman out here.  I thought the trans-slim joke was funny.  I also don't appreciate drag queens because I feel they give the public the wrong idea what trans means. JMHO.

Lauren

[Beatriz]

1 hour ago, LaurenA said:

Hi Willow,

I think I may be the odd woman out here.  I thought the trans-slim joke was funny.  I also don't appreciate drag queens because I feel they give the public the wrong idea what trans means. JMHO.

Lauren

This is interesting. I see what you mean, yet we seem to interpret it differently.

 

I understand that the public may get the wrong idea of what trans means when they see drag queens or women impersonators. However, in general, it is not the goal of drag queens to create that confusion about trans people. They do not pretend to be trans or deny trans people's experiences. They're just questioning the social constructs around gender identity, gender expressions, etc. They're like clowns or comedians, but their subject matter is gender and sex. Some people in the public leave those shows questioning things, whilst others leave untouched or downright confused. I wouldn't blame the confusion on the drag queens, but on the obtuse subset of the public, and especialy on the media. The media go at great lengths to make non-cis, non-het, non-binary things confusing.

 

As I said, I don't enjoy drag queen shows, so I've been to very few. However, about a month ago I watched a series of short documentaries about some drag queens and female impersonators in my country. I was blown away! They were so intelligent and so articulate about what they do and why! It was amazing. They all spoke about how what they do is art or performance, and - above all - a political statement (and one that favors the LGBT+ community). I gained a lot of respect for them.

 

Perhaps there are bad-quality or ill-intentioned drag queens who don't do a favor to the trans community. In my very limited exposure to that scene, I haven't known that side.

[Heather Nicole]

Some decades ago, there was a lot of anti-trans sentiment in the gay community. Many felt that trans people gave the general public a wrong, and damaging, idea about who and what gay people are.

 

Of course, the real problem wasn't trans people. The real problem was a not enough representation of all types of gay and trans people so that the general public would have the opportunity to see that gay and trans are, in fact, two distinct things (even if some people just happen to be both).

[Ivy]

2 hours ago, LaurenA said:

I thought the trans-slim joke was funny.

I think something can be funny, but still offensive.  I don't see the humor in this one tho.

 

3 hours ago, Vidanjali said:

I don't think any cis person can really "get it", necessarily. What people need to learn is that acceptance doesn't require you to get it. It does require one to apply empathy and respect, and those are skills that are not necessarily innate, but can be learned. 

True this 

[Willow]

Everyone has made good points here.  I agree that the combination of LGBTQI+ does confuse everyone.  I’m sure I’ll get chastised for this but I personally don’t think Lesbians have had it as hard as gays.  Just an opinion, I have no facts confirming or refuting that.  I believe Trans got on the band wagon because there aren’t enough of us willing to come out and fight so we attached to an existing group that was better known and started the fight for rights earlier.  I don’t know the rest of the alphabet to share any thoughts.  Clearly, transgender people have been around for many centuries just as all the others.  But we have been much slower to allow our selves to be known in the 20th and 21st centuries.  We help them so they will help us.

 

Willow

[Jackie C.]

That's kind of my take too. In the 80's fetishization made the lesbians a bit more acceptable. Not GREAT, but they had it better than gay men who got painted as AIDS spreaders on top of the whole backlash from the straights and their toxic masculinity.

No, I'm not saying all straights and a goodly portion of the men that are yelling the loudest are probably deeply closeted gay men and trans sisters, but it's mostly a guy thing because how DARE something threaten their masculinity. Not a fan of male culture in the US.

 

The LBG's added the Ts back in the day to get the right to marry. Now that they're more-or-less accepted, some of them want to cut us loose. Also not great, but we're not going anywhere and it really is better than it used to be in the US.

 

Of course, I'm a trans-lesbian demi-sexual so I might as well be bigfoot riding on a unicorn while chasing the Loch Ness monster as far as they're concerned. As my therapist says, "I'm the whole sandwich." Order a LDT the next time you're in your favorite deli. See what they give you.

 

Hugs!

[Mmindy]

@Willow I agree with you on the Jokes being made by ignorant not necessarily hateful, but just ignorant of the real facts behind transgender people. My baby brother is one of the kindest soft hearted people I know, but because of his limited exposure to people outside of his construction crew. He would tell racist jokes until I confronted him about my niece who is biracial. Then he started on Gay jokes and again I asked him if he thought Vic and Nancy would appreciate those kind of jokes. He’s not hateful, he’s ignorant. I have confidence that once I come out to him, he’ll be one of my biggest supporters. 
 

@Elizabeth StarI‘m also a Jill of all trades. 

[Davie]

Thank you @Jackie C. I needed a chuckle.

"I might as well be bigfoot riding on a unicorn while chasing the Loch Ness monster as far as they're concerned."

That does it for me—you've completely ruined the slide into depression I had planned. Thanks again.

--Davie

[Ivy]

3 hours ago, Jackie C. said:

it's mostly a guy thing because how DARE something threaten their masculinity.

I think trans women are seen as a threat to the patriarchal culture.  

Why would someone choose to give up male privilege?  

[Heather Nicole]

3 hours ago, Jackie C. said:

Of course, I'm a trans-lesbian demi-sexual so I might as well be bigfoot riding on a unicorn while chasing the Loch Ness monster as far as they're concerned.

 

I love this mental image. I need a framed print of it on my wall! 

[Elizabeth Star]

3 hours ago, Jandi said:

Why would someone choose to give up male privilege?  

And pockets. ?

[Aggie1]

1 hour ago, Elizabeth Star said:

And pockets. ?

And to quote gollum, just “what does it have in its pocketses?”

[MetaLicious]

6 hours ago, Willow said:

I’m sure I’ll get chastised for this but I personally don’t think Lesbians have had it as hard as gays.

I think you're spot on, @Willow!  And I believe it's because cis-het males think being gay is "gross" while thinking that two women being together is "sexy".  Ultimately, it's a part of the cis-het male fantasy to watch two women making out (before the male "intervenes" to show them how it's done), whereas gays don't have any allowance for  heerosexual male to insert themselves without expressing any gayness themselves.

[Willow]

First you talk about male privilege like it’s this great thing.  And pockets.  Well, I’ve discovered purses.  I think Seinfeld was on to something with the murse. I find it handy.  And doctors will tell you, don’t sit on a wallet.  But most men do.  Then you wonder why your hip hurts.
 

 What is Male privilege?  Did that start with the strongest cave male grabbing the female of choice and continued in some form through the dark ages?  And even the first half of the 20th century.  In western civilization today don’t we have laws that are supposed to end any and all forms of male privilege?

 

Yes, I think a lot of men and boys think it’s exciting to see two women together, emphasis on boys.  I think a lot of those same people think seeing two men kissing in public is disturbing.  Men and boys are groomed to be anti gay biased.  But not anti Lesbian.  When I was growing up my mother pointed out a gay man and told me to stay away from him.  He may have been gay but he wasn’t a child molester.  When I was 19 I worked with him and another gay man.  They just wanted to be left alone.

 

Willow

[Aggie1]

6 hours ago, Heather Nicole said:

8 hours ago, Jackie C. said:

Of course, I'm a trans-lesbian demi-sexual so I might as well be bigfoot riding on a unicorn while chasing the Loch Ness monster as far as they're concerned.

 

I love this mental image. I need a framed print of it on my wall! 

How about this?!

[Heather Nicole]

2 hours ago, AgnesBardsie said:

How about this?!

 

Ha ha, I love it ?

 

As for the other discussion, all I know is this: Growing up believing myself to be cishet male, I thought I had a handle on the while "cishet male attraction to lesbians" thing. Then I realized I wanted to be one of those lesbians so badly. Then I realized I didn't care who or what appealed to me as long as I could be female. So that threw a heck of a big 'ol wrench in my self-assured brain, and all I know now is that I don't know anything, I just know I love femininity.  ?

[Jamie68]

22 hours ago, MetaLicious said:

@Willow, I definitely thik the dog thing is offensive.  Not only does it show blatant disrepct for transfolk, there's an unhealthy dose of fat-shaming there as well.

I agree. I can laugh at myself and take a joke, but there is nothing funny about someone taking a stab at something so personal. Transgender, weight, looks, stuttering, or whatever. It's just plain cruel. I stuttered some when I was little, sucked my thumb till I was 7. Got made fun of. There is no excuse for cruelty, especially as adults.

[Davie]

@Heather Nicole

That is a brainful to know:

"I just know I love femininity.  ?"

hugs,

Davie

[Jamie68]

14 hours ago, Jackie C. said:

That's kind of my take too. In the 80's fetishization made the lesbians a bit more acceptable. Not GREAT, but they had it better than gay men who got painted as AIDS spreaders on top of the whole backlash from the straights and their toxic masculinity.

No, I'm not saying all straights and a goodly portion of the men that are yelling the loudest are probably deeply closeted gay men and trans sisters, but it's mostly a guy thing because how DARE something threaten their masculinity. Not a fan of male culture in the US.

 

The LBG's added the Ts back in the day to get the right to marry. Now that they're more-or-less accepted, some of them want to cut us loose. Also not great, but we're not going anywhere and it really is better than it used to be in the US.

 

Of course, I'm a trans-lesbian demi-sexual so I might as well be bigfoot riding on a unicorn while chasing the Loch Ness monster as far as they're concerned. As my therapist says, "I'm the whole sandwich." Order a LDT the next time you're in your favorite deli. See what they give you.

 

Hugs!

I totaly agree. Acronyms are confusing to me for the most part, but most of the LGBTQI one describes me. 

 

As far as lesbians being more accepted than gays goes, social media seems to have promoted this for a long time. How many movies have you seen where two women kissing each other was supposed to be a big turn on to men.

 

As far as drag queens go, they bother me. I'm pretty accepting in general. I don't care for people flaunting their personal stuff in public just get a reaction. I suppose it could be a good thing though, because it does make the public aware that we do exist and gives them an opportunity to learn about us and accept us for who we are. Double eged sword.

[Jamie68]

11 hours ago, Elizabeth Star said:

And pockets. ?

No joke about "pockets". I just bought my first purse. Got tired of not having anywhere to put things.

Been wanting one for a long time. My wife was against it. Of course she likes what I picked out and wants one like it lol.

[Jackie C.]

11 hours ago, MetaLicious said:

Ultimately, it's a part of the cis-het male fantasy to watch two women making out (before the male "intervenes" to show them how it's done), whereas gays don't have any allowance for  heterosexual male to insert themselves without expressing any gayness themselves.

 

Like I said, fetishization. Also, it hadn't occurred to me that gayness increases logarithmically. So gayness can be expressed as TOTAL GAYNESS (TGAY) = GAY^(number of gay people (NumG) - number of straight people (NumS)). So my wife and I are gay squared where as if we added a third, we'd be gay cubed. Good to know.

 

8 hours ago, Willow said:

First you talk about male privilege like it’s this great thing.  And pockets.  Well, I’ve discovered purses.  I think Seinfeld was on to something with the murse. I find it handy.  And doctors will tell you, don’t sit on a wallet.  But most men do.  Then you wonder why your hip hurts.

 

A bigendered friend of mine, when I expressed my desire to transition, said, "But your privilege?!?" I prefer my purse to pockets, though the pants I get from Avenue have usable pockets in them. The wallet thing causes more back pain for me than hip pain, but yeah. Of course now my wallet is huge so it's not going in ANY of my pockets.

 

Though in all fairness, I still find two women together appealing. It took me a while to figure out that I wanted to be one of them, but I eventually got there.

 

Love the picture @AgnesBardsie!

 

Hugs!

[Ivy]

I love my purse.  It is just big enough to squeeze my Mac/air into it when I want.  But it's not too big for everyday stuff.  

 

Pockets are nice of course, but there is that sitting on it thing.  When I was still riding my bike (as a guy) that fat wallet and chain could get pretty damn uncomfortable after a few hours.  

 

Still, it is nice to at least have a place to slip in a cellphone, or perhaps some reading glasses.  Some of my favorite skirts have those neat pockets in the side seam.

[Mmindy]

18 hours ago, Willow said:

Everyone has made good points here.  I agree that the combination of LGBTQI+ does confuse everyone.  I’m sure I’ll get chastised for this but I personally don’t think Lesbians have had it as hard as gays.  Just an opinion, I have no facts confirming or refuting that.  I believe Trans got on the band wagon because there aren’t enough of us willing to come out and fight so we attached to an existing group that was better known and started the fight for rights earlier.  I don’t know the rest of the alphabet to share any thoughts.  Clearly, transgender people have been around for many centuries just as all the others.  But we have been much slower to allow our selves to be known in the 20th and 21st centuries.  We help them so they will help us.

 

Willow

Well stated Willow,

 

Coffee was early, because I’m driving from Indy to Frederick, MD to teach at the Fire Academy Tuesday through Thursday. 
 

Best wishes, and positive energy,

 

Mindy??️‍⚧️?