Posted today

[SheenaT]

By an anti ttans family member. 

[tracy_j]

I looked it up and found that this was likely the part they mis-quoted and proceeded to embellish:

 

"For you formed my inward parts;
    you knitted me together in my mother's womb."

 

There is no mention of gender.

 

Here is the whole: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm 139&version=ESV

 

Tracy

 

 

[Jackie C.]

I am (sarcastically) shocked... shocked I tell you... that someone would misquote the Bible to further a hateful agenda. ?

 

Jesus was all about love and acceptance. No hate. Love thy neighbor, all that stuff. It's like they never read their own book.

 

Hugs!

[SheenaT]

8 hours ago, tracy_j said:

I looked it up and found that this was likely the part they mis-quoted and proceeded to embellish:

 

"For you formed my inward parts;
    you knitted me together in my mother's womb."

 

There is no mention of gender.

 

Here is the whole: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm 139&version=ESV

 

Tracy

 

 

I see that. I looked it up later thanks. It just confirms the battle I face if I come out.

[SheenaT]

5 hours ago, Jackie C. said:

I am (sarcastically) shocked... shocked I tell you... that someone would misquote the Bible to further a hateful agenda. ?

 

Jesus was all about love and acceptance. No hate. Love thy neighbor, all that stuff. It's like they never read their own book.

 

Hugs!

?

[Charlize]

The passage as it is written is quite right:  "For you formed my inward parts;
    you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made"

 

I was wonderfully made as i am.  My gender issues are a beautiful part of that.

As are all of us......even cis folks.  It's not their fault they are cis,  they seem to have been born that way.

?

 

Hugs,

 

Charlize

 

 

[SheenaT]

1 hour ago, Charlize said:

The passage as it is written is quite right:  "For you formed my inward parts;
    you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made"

 

I was wonderfully made as i am.  My gender issues are a beautiful part of that.

As are all of us......even cis folks.  It's not their fault they are cis,  they seem to have been born that way.

?

 

Hugs,

 

Charlize

 

 

I like that thanks.

[VickySGV]

The Psalter in the Book Of Common Prayer of the Episcopal Church has even a little different view of this much more in our favor,

 

Quote

 

For you yourself created my inmost parts; *     you knit me together in my mother's womb.

I will thank you because I am marvelously made; *     your works are wonderful, and I know it well.

 

 

Like so many poor of heart folks though this was ALL taken out of a beautiful greater context.  Their view is "I am perfect, the rest of the world should be like me I am the ONLY correct human image of G and all the rest are losers."   The Psalm is actually praise of personal discovery of our own identity not just what our body looks like.  Talk about one that blew up in your family member's face when you and friends studied the scripture completely and saw it was praise of your knowing who you are, discovering it and then giving thanks.

[SheenaT]

1 hour ago, VickySGV said:

The Psalter in the Book Of Common Prayer of the Episcopal Church has even a little different view of this much more in our favor,

 

 

Like so many poor of heart folks though this was ALL taken out of a beautiful greater context.  Their view is "I am perfect, the rest of the world should be like me I am the ONLY correct human image of G and all the rest are losers."   The Psalm is actually praise of personal discovery of our own identity not just what our body looks like.  Talk about one that blew up in your family member's face when you and friends studied the scripture completely and saw it was praise of your knowing who you are, discovering it and then giving thanks.

?

[rainflower]

I would just reply that, if your "creator" didn't do such a lousy job I would have been "knit" as the right gender in the first place. The creator has a pretty bad track record, given all the health problems that may be present due to birth issues, and cannot be trusted. Also the idea of someone being physically knit together is just gross.

[Marcie Jensen]

Wow. Speaking as a pastor, and yes I'm ordained, I don't even know where to begin in responding to this chain. So. I guess I will start with misinterpretation of Scripture. That is a common thing in today's society--Americans of the late 20th and early 21st century are the most poorly educated regarding content and interpretation of the Bible that this country has ever seen. There are a whole bunch of reasons for this, but it remains a fact.

 

Second, I would like to address the notion that God makes mistakes. He does not. (And I use the term "He" because that's how Jesus referred to Him. It has no gender implications at all. I hope I did not give offense, and if I did, I humbly apologize.) I would suggest the fallen and corrupt nature of this world is the problem. Without going into pettifogging detail, I suggest reading Dietrich Bonhoeffer's commentary on Genesis 3. While originally written in the 1930's, this is still used as a reference in seminaries and is widely regarded as the best understanding of sinful, fallen and the broken nature of this world ever written. Which leads to: BEING TRANSGENDERED IS NOT A SIN. Period.

 

In point of fact, the Psalmist in Psalm 139 is addressing a person's nature; their SOUL, as opposed to their physical body. As for those who interpret this differently, all I can say is Scripture has been interpreted to meet personal ends for millennia. That doesn't make the interpretation correct. (That goes for me as well.)

 

I would add that throughout Jesus' ministry, he was always with the marginalized of his day; lepers, prostitutes and tax collectors. This begs the two-fold question of who are the marginalized of today, and where would Jesus be if he were physically among us right now?

 

I like Sheena's point about the viewpoint of folks who think their view is "perfect and all others are losers." This is the sin of the Pharisees and we all know what happened to them. To underscore what Sheena say, John Calvin in his Institutes of Christianity, points out that humanity is, in his words, "so depraved" that they don't even recognize their sinful nature without the direct intervention of God through the Holy Spirit.

 

Small, and bigoted, minds will be with us always. This is unfortunate and sad, but true. I would suggest that in the 21st century, transpeople are the marginalized and are feared by people who would so misconstrue Scripture. They are to be pitied and prayed for. 

 

Remember that God, however one interprets the Divinity, loves us all. And always will.

[SheenaT]

3 hours ago, Marcie Jensen said:

Wow. Speaking as a pastor, and yes I'm ordained, I don't even know where to begin in responding to this chain. So. I guess I will start with misinterpretation of Scripture. That is a common thing in today's society--Americans of the late 20th and early 21st century are the most poorly educated regarding content and interpretation of the Bible that this country has ever seen. There are a whole bunch of reasons for this, but it remains a fact.

 

Second, I would like to address the notion that God makes mistakes. He does not. (And I use the term "He" because that's how Jesus referred to Him. It has no gender implications at all. I hope I did not give offense, and if I did, I humbly apologize.) I would suggest the fallen and corrupt nature of this world is the problem. Without going into pettifogging detail, I suggest reading Dietrich Bonhoeffer's commentary on Genesis 3. While originally written in the 1930's, this is still used as a reference in seminaries and is widely regarded as the best understanding of sinful, fallen and the broken nature of this world ever written. Which leads to: BEING TRANSGENDERED IS NOT A SIN. Period.

 

In point of fact, the Psalmist in Psalm 139 is addressing a person's nature; their SOUL, as opposed to their physical body. As for those who interpret this differently, all I can say is Scripture has been interpreted to meet personal ends for millennia. That doesn't make the interpretation correct. (That goes for me as well.)

 

I would add that throughout Jesus' ministry, he was always with the marginalized of his day; lepers, prostitutes and tax collectors. This begs the two-fold question of who are the marginalized of today, and where would Jesus be if he were physically among us right now?

 

I like Sheena's point about the viewpoint of folks who think their view is "perfect and all others are losers." This is the sin of the Pharisees and we all know what happened to them. To underscore what Sheena say, John Calvin in his Institutes of Christianity, points out that humanity is, in his words, "so depraved" that they don't even recognize their sinful nature without the direct intervention of God through the Holy Spirit.

 

Small, and bigoted, minds will be with us always. This is unfortunate and sad, but true. I would suggest that in the 21st century, transpeople are the marginalized and are feared by people who would so misconstrue Scripture. They are to be pitied and prayed for. 

 

Remember that God, however one interprets the Divinity, loves us all. And always will.

I hope He does

[Anna A]

Love this! Well stated!

[Confused1]

2 hours ago, SheenaT said:

I hope He does

He Does!

 

Hugs,

Mike

[Susan R]

@Marcie Jensen Very well thought out post with some great points. Thank you for your contribution to this thread.?

 

Susan R?

[VickySGV]

I posted about this abuse of Psalm 139 in two other Trans Spirituality groups I am part of and it has hit the funny bone of about 90% and comes in at 60 people commenting so far.  The number of Trans folks there who have adopted this as a personal favorite, YES Personal Favorite meditations, and at the current rate growing.  Letting your "spiritual advisors" know that they BLEW their socks off with this one just shows how shallow they are in their understanding and how pathetic a group of victims they have become.  @Marcie Jensen has indeed hit the right notes and is in the company of Trans colleagues who do see this for what it is.  Their Verse Bombs have not destroyed YOU, but they have soot on their faces.  I feel sorry for them.

[KimmieElise]

On 3/1/2021 at 1:30 PM, AwesomeClaire said:

I would just reply that, if your "creator" didn't do such a lousy job I would have been "knit" as the right gender in the first place. The creator has a pretty bad track record, given all the health problems that may be present due to birth issues, and cannot be trusted. Also the idea of someone being physically knit together is just gross.

I like to think of things like in the movie the Last Samurai.  The samurai lord is searching for the perfect cherry blossom, but never finds it until he is dying amid a shower of cherry blossoms blown from the trees nearby.  He concludes, "There all perfect."  When asked, I couldn't say the Father put me in the wrong body.  I don't think there is any mistake.  Just God doesn't conform to human expectations all the time.  He had a plan for me being trans.  I am not fully sure what that is yet, but I have some inkling.  I kinda laugh because there are so many people in Christian circles who would reject me and who are being close-minded and unloving.  I think my being trans might have something to do with being the love of Jesus in a form that will totally piss off the "Pharisees" of this world.

 

Biblical Hermeneutics is basically a set of rules used to interpret the Bible.  The Psalms, when written were pretty much song lyrics, and therefor at times figurative.  Hermeneutics recognizes there are different literary styles in the Bible, and interpretation should take into account literary style.  It is not meant to imply the Father literally knit someone together.  It is a word picture.

[Marcie Jensen]

WSell said.

[SheenaT]

21 hours ago, KimmieElise said:

I like to think of things like in the movie the Last Samurai.  The samurai lord is searching for the perfect cherry blossom, but never finds it until he is dying amid a shower of cherry blossoms blown from the trees nearby.  He concludes, "There all perfect."  When asked, I couldn't say the Father put me in the wrong body.  I don't think there is any mistake.  Just God doesn't conform to human expectations all the time.  He had a plan for me being trans.  I am not fully sure what that is yet, but I have some inkling.  I kinda laugh because there are so many people in Christian circles who would reject me and who are being close-minded and unloving.  I think my being trans might have something to do with being the love of Jesus in a form that will totally piss off the "Pharisees" of this world.

 

Biblical Hermeneutics is basically a set of rules used to interpret the Bible.  The Psalms, when written were pretty much song lyrics, and therefor at times figurative.  Hermeneutics recognizes there are different literary styles in the Bible, and interpretation should take into account literary style.  It is not meant to imply the Father literally knit someone together.  It is a word picture.

?

[SheenaT]

On 2/27/2021 at 10:44 PM, tracy_j said:

I looked it up and found that this was likely the part they mis-quoted and proceeded to embellish:

 

"For you formed my inward parts;
    you knitted me together in my mother's womb."

 

There is no mention of gender.

 

Here is the whole: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm 139&version=ESV

 

Tracy

 

 

?