nonbinary or transgender nonbinary?

[Vidanjali]

I am aware that some nonbinary individuals identify as transgender while others do not. What's the difference? Ultimately, it's personal, and each nonbinary individual may have a different take on the matter. It may not be helpful to define strict parameters, but I do wonder how others think about such distinctions.

 

I used to think that transgender referred to only binary transgender (i.e. only MtF or FtM). Then, I came to understand that transgender refers to anyone who is not cisgender (i.e. anyone who does not identify with their sex assigned at birth). This realization was personally a breakthrough for me, because while I never identified with my sex assigned at birth, I neither fully identified as the opposite sex. So, knowing that transgender identity is vastly diverse and nuanced helped me to understand myself better.

 

As for the distinction referred to in the title of this thread, my understanding is that some nonbinary people do not identify with their sex assigned at birth and therefore may identify as trans nonbinary. Other nonbinary individuals identify only to some extent with their sex assigned at birth and therefore identify as nonbinary, but not trans. While still other nonbinary people (regardless of their connection to their sex assigned at birth) may colloquially reserve the term trans to refer to only binary trans people (or binary-leaning trans people such as trans masc or trans femme), and therefore refer to themselves as only nonbinary for that reason. 

 

Any thoughts on this? Lol, thanks for reading my semantic ramblings. ?

[Aggie1]

I think I may fall somewhere along the trans non-binary spectrum. I would say trans because I function better on estrogen, and non binary because I doubt I will ever convince anyone I never spent 60 years playing the part of a male in society. The internal and external will never be 100% in synch, though over time I expect they will align more and more closely.

[Astrid]

For me, as well, once I came to learn that the trans umbrella can extend to non-binary people, it was an important step in accepting that I belong in the trans movement.  This was coincidental with my involvement in a trans-rights campaign here in Massachusetts in 2018, and I emerged from it feeling complete solidarity with queer people of *every* stripe.  The one thing all of us are not is cisgender.  And one thing all of us have in common is that we face many similar prejudices and issues, and often overcome them in similar ways.

 

So, I embrace my identity as trans non-binary.  ?

 

Astrid

[KathyLauren]

To me, transgender includes everyone whose gender identity is different from what they were assigned at birth.  Since no one is ever assigned a non-binary gender at birth, this means that all non-binary people are trans.  According to that definition.

 

Obviously, some non-binary people define the word transgender differently.  I don't know what their definition is.  So I can't imagine how a trans non-binary person differs from a non-trans non-binary person.  I just know that that is how some people see it.

[MelanieTamara]

Well, that's the million dollar question.

 

Does one believe in two genders on both the physiological and cognitive scales, ie the binary, or does one believe that gender is a unique combination / permutation of entities that comprise the definition of gender, i.e the non-binary.

 

I tend to believe in the non-binary. Everybody is a little bit country and a little bit rock in role in varying degrees. Certainly that occurs on the cognitive scale. As for the physiological scale, I look to the existence of the naturally intersexed person (ie the "evil", non woke term hermaphrodite). That tells me that physiological gender as well is not binary, but rather permutative as well. Plus, Biological Stoichiometry (blood chemistry) uniqueness between everyone points me in that direction too. No "male" is a pure male and no "female" is a pure female

 

I don't know about the word "trans". I think every human being is "trans", whether it be transition in education, transition in relationships, transition in career, life, finances, etc. I think we are who we are at any single point in time and it varies from second to second.  That is what gets me though the day. I'm satisfied that I am not on a journey of gender transition. Rather, I am who I am at any current point in time. And that is OK.

 

Plus, I don't know what a women is. I've never been a woman. I can't know something to that which I have not been exposed. I've interacted with women, I've observed women, but again, I've never been a woman. I guess all I can realistically do is construct a personal definition / perception of what a woman is based upon my interactions and observations.

 

And so, if I'm in transition, I'm in transition to a perception...and that scares the living H. E. Double Hockey Sticks out of me. So I vote non-binary.

 

M.

[Vidanjali]

17 hours ago, AgnesBardsie said:

I think I may fall somewhere along the trans non-binary spectrum. I would say trans because I function better on estrogen, and non binary because I doubt I will ever convince anyone I never spent 60 years playing the part of a male in society. The internal and external will never be 100% in synch, though over time I expect they will align more and more closely.

 

This perspective is fascinating to me. I don't know if I ever heard someone speak of their identity in terms of relative integration of internal identity and external presentation. I would bet many other people think this way, but unless we're in a safe space consisting of a community of trans people (like TP!!) we don't often have the opportunity to engage in such discussions. 

 

15 hours ago, Astrid said:

For me, as well, once I came to learn that the trans umbrella can extend to non-binary people, it was an important step in accepting that I belong in the trans movement. 

 

I embrace my identity as trans non-binary.  ?

 

 

Ditto for me, @Astrid.  

 

12 hours ago, MelanieTamara said:

I don't know about the word "trans"...

 

I think every human being is "trans", whether it be transition...

 

 

The prefix "trans" means that which is beyond or crosses over. For example, a transatlantic flight crosses the Atlantic Ocean, and the Romanian region, Transylvania, is so called because it lies beyond the woods (silva is Latin for a woodland). Transition is a combination of the Latin "trans" (defined above) and a form of the Latin "ire" which is a verb meaning "to go". Therefore, transition means the action of going beyond or crossing over. Transgender means that which is beyond the commonly accepted gender paradigm. So, "trans" as the abbreviated form of "transgender" does not imply transition per se; rather it is a state of being (e.g. I am transgender) rather than an action (e.g. I am transitioning). That is, one who identifies as transgender may or not be actively transitioning, gender-wise (that is, regarding their appearance, presentation, biochemistry, etc.). That said, indeed ALL people are always transitioning in some respect(s) to some degree by virtue of our not being static entities. But, it should be noted that some transgender people "transition" (I'm referring specifically to concerted gender-related transitions here) and others do not, and this may be due to many factors such as desire (or lack thereof), dysphoria (or lack thereof), economics, family situation, safety of environment, etc. 

 

14 hours ago, KathyLauren said:

To me, transgender includes everyone whose gender identity is different from what they were assigned at birth.  Since no one is ever assigned a non-binary gender at birth, this means that all non-binary people are trans.  According to that definition.

 

Obviously, some non-binary people define the word transgender differently.  I don't know what their definition is.  So I can't imagine how a trans non-binary person differs from a non-trans non-binary person.  I just know that that is how some people see it.

 

Part of what got me thinking more about this is that I often see the phrase "transgender and nonbinary people". On one hand, the phrase may imply they are mutually exclusive. On the other hand, the phrase may serve to promote inclusivity, reminding folks that transgender is not limited to the binary. 

 

[Davie]

17 hours ago, Astrid said:

I embrace my identity as trans non-binary.  ?

 

 

Also for me, @Astrid.   Thanks.

—Davie

[KathyLauren]

3 hours ago, Vidanjali said:

 

Part of what got me thinking more about this is that I often see the phrase "transgender and nonbinary people". On one hand, the phrase may imply they are mutually exclusive. On the other hand, the phrase may serve to promote inclusivity, reminding folks that transgender is not limited to the binary. 

 

 

To my way of thinking, all non-binary people are trans.  So when I say "transgender", I am including them. 

 

However, I might sometimes say "Transgender and non-binary" as a way of telling them that I recognize that they may not perceive themselves to be trans, and that I want to include them anyway.  To me, both expressions refer to the same people.

[Vidanjali]

Your thoughtfulness is appreciated, @KathyLauren . ?

[Confused1]

My understanding of transgender is that your gender is something other than what some doctor thought he saw between your legs at birth. I understand some don't want to be considered transgender. I am nonbinary and feel myself to very much be part of this group of fantastic people, binary or not.

 

Melanie Tamara does bring up a valid point. I have some very close friends who are Intersex. It pretty much invalidates the "biological sex" argument often used against us. Sex itself is not always binary.

 

Hugs,

Mike

[Aggie1]

6 hours ago, Vidanjali said:

This perspective is fascinating to me. I don't know if I ever heard someone speak of their identity in terms of relative integration of internal identity and external presentation. I would bet many other people think this way, but unless we're in a safe space consisting of a community of trans people (like TP!!) we don't often have the opportunity to engage in such discussions. 

I think there’s a feedback loop between how we look and how we feel. It certainly contributes to dysphoria if we can’t reconcile it to our satisfaction. If our external presentation creates a sense of euphoria when it aligns with out internal sense of gender, that’s another confirmation of this phenomenon. In my case I have doubts that the alignment will ever be 100% and I’m resigned to that, so I won’t entertain dysphoria, but as it gets closer and closer I could certainly anticipate moments of euphoria! Does that make sense?

[Astrid]

9 hours ago, Vidanjali said:

So, "trans" as the abbreviated form of "transgender" does not imply transition per se; rather it is a state of being (e.g. I am transgender) rather than an action (e.g. I am transitioning).

 

@Vidanjali:  yes, Yes, YES! Which is exactly why some of us don't like it when a transgender person is described as a "transgendered" person, as if it were hormones and surgeries that made them transgender.  On the contrary, they first come to realize that their truest and happiest identity is transgender, and only then proceed (if they can and desire) to take appropriate actions.

 

It's really quite similar for me as a non-binary person as well.  The eventual realization and arrival of understanding that my identity and happiness came with being on the gender spectrum -- in other words, not one of the binary identities -- was the enabler that powered me forward in my journey to where I am today.

 

Astrid

[Vidanjali]

On 10/19/2021 at 3:13 PM, AgnesBardsie said:

I think there’s a feedback loop between how we look and how we feel. It certainly contributes to dysphoria if we can’t reconcile it to our satisfaction. If our external presentation creates a sense of euphoria when it aligns with out internal sense of gender, that’s another confirmation of this phenomenon. In my case I have doubts that the alignment will ever be 100% and I’m resigned to that, so I won’t entertain dysphoria, but as it gets closer and closer I could certainly anticipate moments of euphoria! Does that make sense?

 

Yes, absolutely makes sense. I think it's both a gift and a skill to be able to not entertain dysphoria. 

[Vidanjali]

On 10/19/2021 at 1:42 PM, Confused1 said:

My understanding of transgender is that your gender is something other than what some doctor thought he saw between your legs at birth. I understand some don't want to be considered transgender. I am nonbinary and feel myself to very much be part of this group of fantastic people, binary or not.

 

Melanie Tamara does bring up a valid point. I have some very close friends who are Intersex. It pretty much invalidates the "biological sex" argument often used against us. Sex itself is not always binary.

 

Hugs,

Mike

 

I recently learned that there are about as many people born intersex as there are born natural redheads. It's rare, but much less rare than most people would guess. I don't understand any argument that uses "biological sex" to try to establish gender norms. To make such an argument ignores/erases/invalids/endangers an entire population. 

[Confused1]

23 hours ago, Vidanjali said:

 

I recently learned that there are about as many people born intersex as there are born natural redheads. It's rare, but much less rare than most people would guess. I don't understand any argument that uses "biological sex" to try to establish gender norms. To make such an argument ignores/erases/invalids/endangers an entire population. 

 

My opinion is that biological sex doesn't exist. Sex assigned at birth is done by external observation only unless they can't figure it out. I have seen the number of Intersex people estimated at around 1.7% of the population, but almost nobody knows what their chromosomes are unless there is some kind of medical issue that requires testing. I think it is more than 1.7%. One of my close friends just found out she is Intersex after a surgery to remove what they thought might be cancer. They found an ovary when they did the operation. She is AMAB.

[Davie]

@Vidanjali @Confused1 Boy, this is news to me. Wish I knew more about this—it's important to know the biological truths about it. This knowledge should affect things a lot around our understanding of being human, and of being trans, of course. It's going to require science. And courage to do it.

 

—Davie

[Vidanjali]

@Davie if you wish to learn more, I think you'd enjoy the 2012 New Zealand documentary "Intersexion". I thought it was excellent. 

[Confused1]

3 hours ago, Vidanjali said:

@Davie if you wish to learn more, I think you'd enjoy the 2012 New Zealand documentary "Intersexion". I thought it was excellent. 

 

I would suggest Intersexion as well. Here is another video I have shown to many of my conservative friends: Intersex Realities and the Church

[Davie]

5 hours ago, Vidanjali said:

@Davie if you wish to learn more, I think you'd enjoy the 2012 New Zealand documentary "Intersexion". I thought it was excellent. 

Yes. It is. It's mind-blowing how much ignorance can hurt others who are "Intersexion." My own father was a physician—and he carried and transmitted a lot of sexual ignorance, too. And it got laid in my lap, so to speak. This film deserves a wider public access within the public and as required study in every medical school on Earth. Doctors are part of science—and supposed to follow the truth, not some perverted myth.

Thanks, @Vidanjali

—Davie

 

 

[swallow]

Hi,

 

Thanks for upload. Painful watch but such a good documentary.❤️

[Vidanjali]

16 hours ago, Confused1 said:

 

I would suggest Intersexion as well. Here is another video I have shown to many of my conservative friends: Intersex Realities and the Church

 

Thanks for sharing this, Mike. It's an excellent & poignant video, and its length makes it accessible to people who may wish to learn but who don't want to commit to watching an entire documentary. (I believe the stories of both Judy/Max & Selwyn/Sally appear in Intersexion too.) The church where I sing has formed an ally group. I think I'll share this video with them.