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Did God make a mistake?


SheenaT

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16 minutes ago, SheenaT said:

I experience the hatred and misunderstanding towards us.

When I came out, it was said - not to my face - that I was "going to hell."  I no longer frequent that establishment.

 

The few people that actually know me are at least fairly tolerant.

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1 minute ago, Jandi said:

When I came out, it was said - not to my face - that I was "going to hell."  I no longer frequent that establishment.

 

The few people that actually know me are at least fairly tolerant.

🤗

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6 hours ago, Jandi said:

When I came out, it was said - not to my face - that I was "going to hell."  I no longer frequent that establishment.

 

The few people that actually know me are at least fairly tolerant.

I'm sorry you went through that. The people--and I use the term "people" loosely--who said that clearly have no understanding of Justification or of Salvation.  It also appears they have forgotten the teachings of judge not, lest you be judged and parable of the beam in your own eye. (Both found in Matthew 7 as part of the Sermon on the Mount.) 

 

One of the reasons I became a Calvinist is because he points out that humanity is inherently depraved in how they/we view others. It's a difficult thing to accept, but when I see stuff like this, I begin to understand why it is that Jesus wept.

 

And good for you for not going back to that particular place.

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I was raised Greek Orthodox.  I've wrestled with faith and identity, and I'm part of a Christian faith group (not a mainline denomination, a small community).

 

My current faith community accepts the concept of original sin - that not only humans are flawed from birth, but that the world itself is broken.  That includes sex, reproduction, and personal identity.  There's some tension between God's love, God's power, and our suffering that gets endlessly debated as the "problem of evil."  I won't go into that here.

 

Having gender issues falls into the bucket of being born into an imperfect world.  God's intent for me?  To be comfortably and properly created as male or female.  The messed up world's result?  Somehow I feel like my body and mind and emotions don't fit together.  I do the best I can to fit in the here and now, and simply trust that when God fixes the broken world and we enjoy our eternal life, He'll also fix my internal conflict and I'll finally, truly fit.  What that end result looks like is His problem, not mine.  I just show up...so I get the easy part. 🙂

 

It is the best explanation I have for how God can be powerful and good, and I can be a relatively appropriate creation instead of an "abomination" as some conservatives would see me.

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25 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

Having gender issues falls into the bucket of being born into an imperfect world.  God's intent for me?  To be comfortably and properly created as male or female. 

I don't even want to touch the concept of "original sin" here.  But perhaps there is something other than binary gender.  There are traditions where being both male and female is considered special.  Perhaps this is not being "broken" at all, but opens up new ways of understanding this world we live in?

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On 6/24/2022 at 9:10 AM, Jandi said:

The existence of "God" can neither be proved, or disproved.

Killing each other over our opinions is just messed up.

The Bible is anti-LGBT. Read Romans or Revelation. It seems extremely obvious God can be disproved because his book is immoral.

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3 minutes ago, Artpetal said:

It seems extremely obvious God can be disproved because his book is immoral.

But, is it "His" book?

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I'm sorry.  Been up since 04:30 or 05:00.  I need to crash.

I just think the issue of "God" is bigger than this particular book.

 

Love y'all - all of ya!

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8 minutes ago, Artpetal said:

The Bible is anti-LGBT. Read Romans or Revelation. It seems extremely obvious God can be disproved because his book is immoral.

No offense, but I don’t think you should be saying that. 
Sure, some people like to twist verses to make it SEEM homophonic but there’s little concrete proof it actually was. 
What’s worse, you’re calling God Himself anti-lgbt and that is very invalidating of other’s beliefs as many people believe He loves all regardless of gender and sexuality. 
I’d just advise to be respectful and I hope I’ve done the same and I apologize if I have not. 

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13 minutes ago, WillowA113 said:

No offense, but I don’t think you should be saying that. Sure, some people like to twist verses to make it SEEM homophonic but there’s little concrete proof it actually was. 

Weird. It's there in black and white if you even read it.

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  • Root Admin

Keep it civil, folks. Otherwise, I'll shut the topic down.

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35 minutes ago, Artpetal said:

Weird. It's there in black and white if you even read it.

It can be interpreted different ways. 
@MaryEllenAnd sorry if I’m making it an argument or negative. I didn’t mean the ruin the thread for anyone. 

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8 minutes ago, WillowA113 said:

It can be interpreted different ways. 

Suuure.

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There were no mistakes. Just hard lessons.

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14 minutes ago, Mx.Drago said:

There were no mistakes. Just hard lessons.

What lesson are we being forced to learn and why, I wonder? 

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1 minute ago, WillowA113 said:

What lesson are we being forced to learn and why, I wonder? 

Not forced, some people learn nothing. The "why?" is in the lesson that's a plan beyond our simple mortal minds capabilities to comprehend, and each person has their own lesson. Wonder away, but don't let it bother you too much. 

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56 minutes ago, Mx.Drago said:

Not forced, some people learn nothing. The "why?" is in the lesson that's a plan beyond our simple mortal minds capabilities to comprehend, and each person has their own lesson. Wonder away, but don't let it bother you too much. 

You’re definitely right, I’m just naturally a curious person. 

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9 hours ago, Artpetal said:

The Bible is anti-LGBT. Read Romans or Revelation. It seems extremely obvious God can be disproved because his book is immoral.

 

 

Actually, it isn't. The Bible isn't "anti" anything. Rather it promotes a set of beliefs, values and faith to humanity. Sadly, it's been used for well over 3000 years to promote hate by people who often deliberately twist it for their own ends.

 

One of the many mistakes people make when interpreting the Bible, and this includes all of, myself included, is in not exegeting the entire passage and placing it in context of time, location, history and theology. One example that comes to mind is from my seminary days. The professor had us exegete and interpret the coronation ode to Manasseh in Isaiah. We were to to interpret this solely from a Hebrew standpoint. As this passage is seen in Christianity as a direct prophecy to Christ's birth. I included it in my exegesis. I was sorely taken to task over it. I did not interpret the text in the context of time, place and history. The point being, interpretations of the Bible can differ. (The passage I referenced is most commonly heard in Handel's Messiah. ie: the "King of Kings, Lord of Lords" chorus.)

 

I will reiterate, there is no mention of transpeople in the Bible. Period. If there is anyone who can show a particular verse, passage of Scripture or otherwise that SPECIFICALLY mentions transpeople anywhere in the Bible, I will tear up my MDiv in their presence.

 

Gays and Lesbians are in fact mentioned in the Bible. Specifically in Deuteronomy and in 1 Corinthians, but again, the context must be considered. It's also important to take notice of whom Jesus associated with during his time on earth; it was with the tax collectors, lepers and prostitutes. The marginalized of his time. Presently, our--the LGBTQ+--community is the marginalized. Where do you think he would be if he were physically present today?

 

If this is offensive, I sincerely apologize. 

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1 hour ago, Marcie Jensen said:

I will reiterate, there is no mention of transpeople in the Bible. Period.

Whether or not that's true (and it isn't), trans erasure is always something to fight.

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@Artpetal, Of course fighting trans erasure is worth fighting for. This is true for any human right.

 

Now, please cite the specific chapters and verses in both Romans and Revelation that mention trans people. Be advised that eunichs are not, in both the original Greek and Hebrew trans.  If you can cite the specific verses where transpeople are mentioned, I will gladly and humbly apologize to you. But, the thing is it can't be done.  Take whatever translation of the Bible you want--Kjv, NKjv, NIV, ARSB, the Septuagint, the original Greek (New Jerusalem Bible) or Hebrew, etc.--transpeople are simply not mentioned.  I mean no offense, I simply need to be shown. I admit my studies of the Bible and what I learned in seminary are not infallible and I am always eager to learn. 

 

If you can prove your point, I will admit that I was in error. I don't think I am, though.

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1 hour ago, Marcie Jensen said:

One of the many mistakes people make when interpreting the Bible, and this includes all of, myself included, is in not exegeting the entire passage and placing it in context of time, location, history and theology.

This is certainly true.  I have been in a number of groups that insisted in the book being the inerrant word of God. (biblical inerrancy is the belief that the Bible is without error or fault in all its teaching)  Some even insisting on specifically the KJV.  After all, it is the "authorized" version.

 

I make no claim to be a biblical scholar, but I have lived most of my life under its influence.  

 

In my previous life I struggled with the "apparent" inconsistencies in the book.  I even purchased a thick book that promised to explain all this.   It was largely smoke and mirrors.

 

As I have already said, I have no animosity toward Christians.  But it was only when I got free, that I was finally able to face my gender issues - which I had been repressing out of fear for most of my life.  I didn't reject it to justify myself, I feel it was the opposite.

 

I will include a poem I wrote at the time.  I apologize in advance if it offends anyone…

 

This body is dying now

Soon to go back to the earth

 

And what of me

Will I finally be free

Or

Just go to sleep at last

 

Heaven or hell

An absurdity

Who could be the judge?

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I'm not sure how you can ask me to prove that transgender people are condemned by the Bible when you're talking about an ancient country that had laws on the books condemning wearing mixed fabrics. You couldn't wear any kind of wrong clothing, including clothing that they would have reserved for ciswomen. If women in this day and age can force their transgender spouses to never wear their clothes outside the house, it must have been magnitudes worse in a lawless country like it was back then.

 

They had laws on the books condemning "sleeping with a man as you would a woman" which is astonishingly homophobic. There's no doubt whatsoever that they sometimes saw transgender women sleeping with men and thought to themselves, "That couldn't be a woman. Must be two gay men." The punishment for gay sex in the Bible is death. Britain had laws on the books in the 1900s jailing people for gay sex and it was probably inspired by this evil book. If it was that bad in recent history I don't even want to think what it was like in 500 BCE or earlier, but I do obviously have to think of it because I can't ignore the evils of the past.

 

I'm not sure how you can ask me to prove that transgender people were erased by the Bible when the vast majority of people had absolutely no idea that transgender people even existed. This means you're bound to misgender people left and right, and it doesn't end at simply misgendering them, it ends at physical violence if they somehow discover your secret. How often do we see hurtful language online or even hear in the news about violence towards us? If it's this bad today, it can only have been hundreds of times worse at a time in history when information was extremely scarce, education was almost unheard of, God did not support you in any way, shape, or form, and literally nobody had an interest in helping us transition medically.

 

I can't fathom thinking 500 BCE or 25 CE, when Jesus gave up his job and went preaching, was some kind of ideal, God-given blessing. We have officially moved on from the Bible at a national level and there's an entire history behind that starting with secularism in Europe. But there are still people who want to reverse that, either immediately by their own hands or eventually in the hands of God.

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24 minutes ago, Artpetal said:

I'm not sure how you can ask me to prove that transgender people are condemned by the Bible when you're talking about an ancient country that had laws on the books condemning wearing mixed fabrics. You couldn't wear any kind of wrong clothing, including clothing that they would have reserved for ciswomen. If women in this day and age can force their transgender spouses to never wear their clothes outside the house, it must have been magnitudes worse in a lawless country like it was back then.

 

They had laws on the books condemning "sleeping with a man as you would a woman" which is astonishingly homophobic. There's no doubt whatsoever that they sometimes saw transgender women sleeping with men and thought to themselves, "That couldn't be a woman. Must be two gay men." The punishment for gay sex in the Bible is death. Britain had laws on the books in the 1900s jailing people for gay sex and it was probably inspired by this evil book. If it was that bad in recent history I don't even want to think what it was like in 500 BCE or earlier, but I do obviously have to think of it because I can't ignore the evils of the past.

 

I'm not sure how you can ask me to prove that transgender people were erased by the Bible when the vast majority of people had absolutely no idea that transgender people even existed. This means you're bound to misgender people left and right, and it doesn't end at simply misgendering them, it ends at physical violence if they somehow discover your secret. How often do we see hurtful language online or even hear in the news about violence towards us? If it's this bad today, it can only have been hundreds of times worse at a time in history when information was extremely scarce, education was almost unheard of, God did not support you in any way, shape, or form, and literally nobody had an interest in helping us transition medically.

 

I can't fathom thinking 500 BCE or 25 CE, when Jesus gave up his job and went preaching, was some kind of ideal, God-given blessing. We have officially moved on from the Bible at a national level and there's an entire history behind that starting with secularism in Europe. But there are still people who want to reverse that, either immediately by their own hands or eventually in the hands of God.

So, you can't cite Scripture to prove your point. Did not think you could. Also, one of the things that Jesus preached was that He fulfilled the law, and that we are no longer bound by the old Jewish covenant. You cite Deuteronomy, which again, we are no longer bound by.

 

As to how I can ask you to cite the Scripture in the Bible that condemns being trans, well, you originally cited both Romans and Revelation. I merely asked you to provide the chapters and verses that support your position. And as for "moving on from the Bible," you have just greatly insulted millions of people of faith in this nation and throughout the world. I'm not asking you to believe as I do, or as any other person of faith does--be they Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Wiccan, Buddhist or other. 

 

And, so you will know, Christianity is not some monolithic block. For example, my denomination (PCUSA) ordains gays, performs same sex marriage and I was not defrocked when I came out as trans. This holds true for many other mainstream denominations including the Anglican Communion, the Evangelical Lutherans, Methodists  and Nazarenes to name but a few. 

 

And, while I will concede that there have been many, too many, inexcusable acts and doctrines promulgated in the Name of God (and not confined to Christianity) nowhere in the New testament--Christian theology--is any specific group or class of people condemned. I know you're angry at Christianity--it shows in the tone of your posts--but, I ask you, how can you condemn an entire faith from the actions of a few denominations whose understanding of Scripture may be different from the mainstream?

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1 hour ago, Jandi said:

This is certainly true.  I have been in a number of groups that insisted in the book being the inerrant word of God. (biblical inerrancy is the belief that the Bible is without error or fault in all its teaching)  Some even insisting on specifically the KJV.  After all, it is the "authorized" version.

 

I make no claim to be a biblical scholar, but I have lived most of my life under its influence.  

 

In my previous life I struggled with the "apparent" inconsistencies in the book.  I even purchased a thick book that promised to explain all this.   It was largely smoke and mirrors.

 

As I have already said, I have no animosity toward Christians.  But it was only when I got free, that I was finally able to face my gender issues - which I had been repressing out of fear for most of my life.  I didn't reject it to justify myself, I feel it was the opposite.

 

I will include a poem I wrote at the time.  I apologize in advance if it offends anyone…

 

This body is dying now

Soon to go back to the earth

 

And what of me

Will I finally be free

Or

Just go to sleep at last

 

Heaven or hell

An absurdity

Who could be the judge?

Thank you Jandi.  Your point--especially about the KJV-- is well taken. And often misinterpreted.  I've actually encountered people who insist that if "1603 English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!' *SHUDDER* They seem to ignore that Jesus spoke Aramaic and Hebrew.

 

And, whether we like it or not, we are all under its influence as that's what English Common Law was based on and what our own laws ultimately derive from.

 

As for the apparent inconsistencies and books to explain them, yeah. There are a lot of them out there and they are mostly smoke and mirrors.

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You pretty obviously haven't read the Bible from cover to cover if you don't know what I'm referring to. I did cite the exact wording of the verses in question so I don't know what your issue is. I've read it from cover to cover myself, and I started as a young child, so yeah not sure why Christians always pretend their book doesn't say what it says.

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      good evening   good day at work today.  I did do some things a little out of normal but everything was completed successfully.  As I said earlier, the Asst Mgr was my second today.  I don’t think she was too happy about that.  Several customers asked her where Richard was her answer was the manager cut his hours.  Well that is only part of the story,  his hours were cut just like mine were and several others but in his case he made demands about his hours that couldn’t be met.  But instead of making some non complaining remark about it she made sure to lay it all on the manager, thus throwing the manager under the bus.  Similarly when asked why she hadn’t been at work early mornings, she said she was being punished by the manager.  Well that’s partly true, she wouldn’t do what the manager told her to do so she took her off opening.  But secondarily she didn’t have a car to drive temporarily.  You can’t open the store without a car because who ever opens has tasks that require them to leave the store, so it was  at least partly her own fault.  But she chose to throw the manager under the bus for that.  I think she is asking to be fired for insubordination.  And if the manager gets these conversations off the security tape tomorrow she just might get her wish.   im pretty close to being ready to take the asst position but there isn’t anyone ready to take over my job, at least not at our store.  I suppose the other shift lead could if she is able to work earlier shifts and if the other closers were just a bit more reliable.   Ive been wanting some homefried chicken.  We found a BBQ place not far away that had such a chicken but I is made fresh when ordered so it has a 30 minute wait.  It was worth the wait and the other things we tried were also good.  Another restaurant on the list.  At least half of what we ordered came home for another meal.   i get to sleep in tomorrow, I go to work at 1:30!   Willow
    • Abigail Genevieve
      It was nine thirty.  Saturday morning had rolled around more quickly than Taylor could believe.  She groaned, whined, thought of a million excuses why she should just stay in bed and knock the alarm across the room.  But it would still be going on, and so would the promise to Bob: when the gi came in, she would be in. There it was in its nice package, out where she could not miss it.  Why didn't she hide it?  She shook her head.   Up she got.  Sometimes you just do.  Her hair was a wreck. She patted it down and went to the bathroom.  Nine forty five. Shower later. No make up. She hated kara-tay especially at an ungodly early hour on a Saturday morning. Bagel. Instant coffee.  She was five minutes away when she realized she had forgotten the gi.  Back she went.   Into the dojo.  She had about five minutes to get the gi on.  She attempted to slip in unnoticed and go to the little restroom. Someone barked something out in Japanese or something, and there was a dead silence.  She turned to see what was going on. Both classes were getting into their lines, but everyone, including Bob, was bowing slightly. To her. Bob nodded, and she returned the bow.  Life started again. She was touched.   Bowing three times. Oath. Kata.  She was facing off with Judy as her partner.  Judy looked worried.   "Sometimes you just gotta pick yourself up and try again," Taylor told her. She nodded. "Let's do this."   Lunge punch and lower block.  They traded off like nothing had happened the last weekend.  Lunge punch and middle block. Lunge punch and upper block.  It was kind of like dancing. Taylor enjoyed it.  She wanted to learn more.  Brown-belt Maggie adjusted position of limbs and hips for both Taylor and Judy, telling them when she was about to do something: elbow up a bit".    "How'd you do?" Bob asked her later.  They had both gone home and showered. Now they were in a booth at a fast food place.   "I was kind of disappointed class ended. I was ready for more."   "That's my trooper."   "I'm not allowing you in my apartment until we are married," she said suddenly.   "You think I am a problem?"   "No.  I think you are safe. You passed the test  I am the problem here."   "Okay."   "What did the doctor tell you?"   "It's complicated.  More tests coming.  Like getting into college.  I got a letter back.  It seems there is this big fat M on my transcript and my current picture is not an M type picture.  I have to write a letter and send them notarized proofs and stuff. Just delays. This is a pain. Nothing cut and dried."   "I will say.  I'm glad I'm not transgender."   "Hah. You are pulled into my world.  You are involved in this stuff as much as I am, and, as you put it, of your own free will."   "You are worth it."   "I hope so."   "I know so."      
    • Abigail Genevieve
      On the way back to her desk she was interrupted by six short, urgent conversations that had to be attended to. Then she slipped into the women's room and locked the stall door.  She took a deep breath, then another, and allowed herself to shake for five minutes,  Then deep breathing, ten in and ten out, stretch up, touch the floor, neck rolls and she was fine. She used the toilet and a woman knocked and said, "Taylor, are you okay?"   "Ready to conquer the world!"  on her way out she found her makeup was fine.  Three stalls, two sinks.  If she ever designed a women's room with three stalls, there would be four sinks, with plenty of space to plunk your stuff down between them.   She met a deferential Karen.  "Here is the branding I came up with," she said.  And she went back to working as hard as Brenda and Mary, who looked up worriedly and then went back to the proposal.   Shortly before 5:00 she received an email with the title Consolidation and Compensation.  In it she learned that the position of office manager was eliminated, and the current office manager was to become the chief executive officer. The former CEO, along with the CFO, the chief legal officer, and sundry staff, had been terminated, per the Board of Directors.  Effective immediately everyone would receive a base salary of $20,000 with a commission to be set by the individual's supervisor.  Each supervisor would be given a certain percentage to distribute.  Most functions they had been handled would be outsourced as needed.   "The question of what profit was made last year is frequent enough to be answered.  The company lost over 500,000 in fiscal 2023.  At this point further cuts are not anticipated.  We will be strategically adding positions that will enhance our profits. Hard work is expected of everyone."   Her two web guys had been complaining because their games had been remotely uninstalled.  After the memo came out they were absolutely silent.  That gave her an idea, and after an exchange of emails they were reassigned to maintenance out at the plant, effective tomorrow morning.  There were lots of weeds that needed pulling, if nothing else. That email went out after they left early, for the day.  The maintenance foreman was a no-nonsense type who did not tolerate slacking, and they would learn a thing or two.  This also freed up two spaces for her to put new people.
    • MaeBe
      So…I didn’t know your Facebook avatar was public. So, on my birthday, a couple people used a group avatar message to wish me a happy birthday…and now my Facebook friends can see a short video of my female avatar dancing with an old friend’s and another with my uncle’s avatars. So am I “Facebook out” now? 😬
    • Davie
      No, they are not. Truth wins in the end and this report is full of lies that poison the whole thing: see this: "Dr. Cass Backpedals From Review: HRT, Blockers Should Be Made Available it's said. Dr. Cass's latest statements are likely to cast more doubt on the validity of the study, which has come under fire for disregarding substantial evidence on trans care." https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/dr-cass-backpedals-from-review-hrt?publication_id=994764&post_id=143743897&isFreemail=true&r=rebf4&triedRedirect=true I hope Dr. Cass wins The Mengele Award for it.
    • Adrianna Danielle
      Boyfriend and I went to a support group for spouses dating or married to a transgender person on Tuesday night for the first time.It was amazing meeting other couples like us.One was a genetic woman whom has been dating a transgender male for the first time and she is supporting his transition.Us,they were amazed by us agreeing on something we said,love and acceptance have brought us together
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