Did God make a mistake?

[Ivy]

16 minutes ago, SheenaT said:

I experience the hatred and misunderstanding towards us.

When I came out, it was said - not to my face - that I was "going to hell."  I no longer frequent that establishment.

 

The few people that actually know me are at least fairly tolerant.

[SheenaT]

1 minute ago, Jandi said:

When I came out, it was said - not to my face - that I was "going to hell."  I no longer frequent that establishment.

 

The few people that actually know me are at least fairly tolerant.

🤗

[Marcie Jensen]

6 hours ago, Jandi said:

When I came out, it was said - not to my face - that I was "going to hell."  I no longer frequent that establishment.

 

The few people that actually know me are at least fairly tolerant.

I'm sorry you went through that. The people--and I use the term "people" loosely--who said that clearly have no understanding of Justification or of Salvation.  It also appears they have forgotten the teachings of judge not, lest you be judged and parable of the beam in your own eye. (Both found in Matthew 7 as part of the Sermon on the Mount.) 

 

One of the reasons I became a Calvinist is because he points out that humanity is inherently depraved in how they/we view others. It's a difficult thing to accept, but when I see stuff like this, I begin to understand why it is that Jesus wept.

 

And good for you for not going back to that particular place.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

I was raised Greek Orthodox.  I've wrestled with faith and identity, and I'm part of a Christian faith group (not a mainline denomination, a small community).

 

My current faith community accepts the concept of original sin - that not only humans are flawed from birth, but that the world itself is broken.  That includes sex, reproduction, and personal identity.  There's some tension between God's love, God's power, and our suffering that gets endlessly debated as the "problem of evil."  I won't go into that here.

 

Having gender issues falls into the bucket of being born into an imperfect world.  God's intent for me?  To be comfortably and properly created as male or female.  The messed up world's result?  Somehow I feel like my body and mind and emotions don't fit together.  I do the best I can to fit in the here and now, and simply trust that when God fixes the broken world and we enjoy our eternal life, He'll also fix my internal conflict and I'll finally, truly fit.  What that end result looks like is His problem, not mine.  I just show up...so I get the easy part. 🙂

 

It is the best explanation I have for how God can be powerful and good, and I can be a relatively appropriate creation instead of an "abomination" as some conservatives would see me.

[Ivy]

25 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

Having gender issues falls into the bucket of being born into an imperfect world.  God's intent for me?  To be comfortably and properly created as male or female. 

I don't even want to touch the concept of "original sin" here.  But perhaps there is something other than binary gender.  There are traditions where being both male and female is considered special.  Perhaps this is not being "broken" at all, but opens up new ways of understanding this world we live in?

[Artpetal]

On 6/24/2022 at 9:10 AM, Jandi said:

The existence of "God" can neither be proved, or disproved.

Killing each other over our opinions is just messed up.

The Bible is anti-LGBT. Read Romans or Revelation. It seems extremely obvious God can be disproved because his book is immoral.

[Ivy]

3 minutes ago, Artpetal said:

It seems extremely obvious God can be disproved because his book is immoral.

But, is it "His" book?

[Ivy]

I'm sorry.  Been up since 04:30 or 05:00.  I need to crash.

I just think the issue of "God" is bigger than this particular book.

 

Love y'all - all of ya!

[WillowA113]

8 minutes ago, Artpetal said:

The Bible is anti-LGBT. Read Romans or Revelation. It seems extremely obvious God can be disproved because his book is immoral.

No offense, but I don’t think you should be saying that. 
Sure, some people like to twist verses to make it SEEM homophonic but there’s little concrete proof it actually was. 
What’s worse, you’re calling God Himself anti-lgbt and that is very invalidating of other’s beliefs as many people believe He loves all regardless of gender and sexuality. 
I’d just advise to be respectful and I hope I’ve done the same and I apologize if I have not. 

[Artpetal]

13 minutes ago, WillowA113 said:

No offense, but I don’t think you should be saying that. Sure, some people like to twist verses to make it SEEM homophonic but there’s little concrete proof it actually was. 

Weird. It's there in black and white if you even read it.

[MaryEllen]

Keep it civil, folks. Otherwise, I'll shut the topic down.

[WillowA113]

35 minutes ago, Artpetal said:

Weird. It's there in black and white if you even read it.

It can be interpreted different ways. 
@MaryEllenAnd sorry if I’m making it an argument or negative. I didn’t mean the ruin the thread for anyone. 

[Artpetal]

8 minutes ago, WillowA113 said:

It can be interpreted different ways. 

Suuure.

[Mx.Drago]

There were no mistakes. Just hard lessons.

[WillowA113]

14 minutes ago, Mx.Drago said:

There were no mistakes. Just hard lessons.

What lesson are we being forced to learn and why, I wonder? 

[Mx.Drago]

1 minute ago, WillowA113 said:

What lesson are we being forced to learn and why, I wonder? 

Not forced, some people learn nothing. The "why?" is in the lesson that's a plan beyond our simple mortal minds capabilities to comprehend, and each person has their own lesson. Wonder away, but don't let it bother you too much. 

[WillowA113]

56 minutes ago, Mx.Drago said:

Not forced, some people learn nothing. The "why?" is in the lesson that's a plan beyond our simple mortal minds capabilities to comprehend, and each person has their own lesson. Wonder away, but don't let it bother you too much. 

You’re definitely right, I’m just naturally a curious person. 

[Marcie Jensen]

9 hours ago, Artpetal said:

The Bible is anti-LGBT. Read Romans or Revelation. It seems extremely obvious God can be disproved because his book is immoral.

 

 

Actually, it isn't. The Bible isn't "anti" anything. Rather it promotes a set of beliefs, values and faith to humanity. Sadly, it's been used for well over 3000 years to promote hate by people who often deliberately twist it for their own ends.

 

One of the many mistakes people make when interpreting the Bible, and this includes all of, myself included, is in not exegeting the entire passage and placing it in context of time, location, history and theology. One example that comes to mind is from my seminary days. The professor had us exegete and interpret the coronation ode to Manasseh in Isaiah. We were to to interpret this solely from a Hebrew standpoint. As this passage is seen in Christianity as a direct prophecy to Christ's birth. I included it in my exegesis. I was sorely taken to task over it. I did not interpret the text in the context of time, place and history. The point being, interpretations of the Bible can differ. (The passage I referenced is most commonly heard in Handel's Messiah. ie: the "King of Kings, Lord of Lords" chorus.)

 

I will reiterate, there is no mention of transpeople in the Bible. Period. If there is anyone who can show a particular verse, passage of Scripture or otherwise that SPECIFICALLY mentions transpeople anywhere in the Bible, I will tear up my MDiv in their presence.

 

Gays and Lesbians are in fact mentioned in the Bible. Specifically in Deuteronomy and in 1 Corinthians, but again, the context must be considered. It's also important to take notice of whom Jesus associated with during his time on earth; it was with the tax collectors, lepers and prostitutes. The marginalized of his time. Presently, our--the LGBTQ+--community is the marginalized. Where do you think he would be if he were physically present today?

 

If this is offensive, I sincerely apologize. 

[Artpetal]

1 hour ago, Marcie Jensen said:

I will reiterate, there is no mention of transpeople in the Bible. Period.

Whether or not that's true (and it isn't), trans erasure is always something to fight.

[Marcie Jensen]

@Artpetal, Of course fighting trans erasure is worth fighting for. This is true for any human right.

 

Now, please cite the specific chapters and verses in both Romans and Revelation that mention trans people. Be advised that eunichs are not, in both the original Greek and Hebrew trans.  If you can cite the specific verses where transpeople are mentioned, I will gladly and humbly apologize to you. But, the thing is it can't be done.  Take whatever translation of the Bible you want--Kjv, NKjv, NIV, ARSB, the Septuagint, the original Greek (New Jerusalem Bible) or Hebrew, etc.--transpeople are simply not mentioned.  I mean no offense, I simply need to be shown. I admit my studies of the Bible and what I learned in seminary are not infallible and I am always eager to learn. 

 

If you can prove your point, I will admit that I was in error. I don't think I am, though.

[Ivy]

1 hour ago, Marcie Jensen said:

One of the many mistakes people make when interpreting the Bible, and this includes all of, myself included, is in not exegeting the entire passage and placing it in context of time, location, history and theology.

This is certainly true.  I have been in a number of groups that insisted in the book being the inerrant word of God. (biblical inerrancy is the belief that the Bible is without error or fault in all its teaching)  Some even insisting on specifically the KJV.  After all, it is the "authorized" version.

 

I make no claim to be a biblical scholar, but I have lived most of my life under its influence.  

 

In my previous life I struggled with the "apparent" inconsistencies in the book.  I even purchased a thick book that promised to explain all this.   It was largely smoke and mirrors.

 

As I have already said, I have no animosity toward Christians.  But it was only when I got free, that I was finally able to face my gender issues - which I had been repressing out of fear for most of my life.  I didn't reject it to justify myself, I feel it was the opposite.

 

I will include a poem I wrote at the time.  I apologize in advance if it offends anyone…

 

This body is dying now

Soon to go back to the earth

 

And what of me

Will I finally be free

Or

Just go to sleep at last

 

Heaven or hell

An absurdity

Who could be the judge?

[Artpetal]

I'm not sure how you can ask me to prove that transgender people are condemned by the Bible when you're talking about an ancient country that had laws on the books condemning wearing mixed fabrics. You couldn't wear any kind of wrong clothing, including clothing that they would have reserved for ciswomen. If women in this day and age can force their transgender spouses to never wear their clothes outside the house, it must have been magnitudes worse in a lawless country like it was back then.

 

They had laws on the books condemning "sleeping with a man as you would a woman" which is astonishingly homophobic. There's no doubt whatsoever that they sometimes saw transgender women sleeping with men and thought to themselves, "That couldn't be a woman. Must be two gay men." The punishment for gay sex in the Bible is death. Britain had laws on the books in the 1900s jailing people for gay sex and it was probably inspired by this evil book. If it was that bad in recent history I don't even want to think what it was like in 500 BCE or earlier, but I do obviously have to think of it because I can't ignore the evils of the past.

 

I'm not sure how you can ask me to prove that transgender people were erased by the Bible when the vast majority of people had absolutely no idea that transgender people even existed. This means you're bound to misgender people left and right, and it doesn't end at simply misgendering them, it ends at physical violence if they somehow discover your secret. How often do we see hurtful language online or even hear in the news about violence towards us? If it's this bad today, it can only have been hundreds of times worse at a time in history when information was extremely scarce, education was almost unheard of, God did not support you in any way, shape, or form, and literally nobody had an interest in helping us transition medically.

 

I can't fathom thinking 500 BCE or 25 CE, when Jesus gave up his job and went preaching, was some kind of ideal, God-given blessing. We have officially moved on from the Bible at a national level and there's an entire history behind that starting with secularism in Europe. But there are still people who want to reverse that, either immediately by their own hands or eventually in the hands of God.

[Marcie Jensen]

24 minutes ago, Artpetal said:

I'm not sure how you can ask me to prove that transgender people are condemned by the Bible when you're talking about an ancient country that had laws on the books condemning wearing mixed fabrics. You couldn't wear any kind of wrong clothing, including clothing that they would have reserved for ciswomen. If women in this day and age can force their transgender spouses to never wear their clothes outside the house, it must have been magnitudes worse in a lawless country like it was back then.

 

They had laws on the books condemning "sleeping with a man as you would a woman" which is astonishingly homophobic. There's no doubt whatsoever that they sometimes saw transgender women sleeping with men and thought to themselves, "That couldn't be a woman. Must be two gay men." The punishment for gay sex in the Bible is death. Britain had laws on the books in the 1900s jailing people for gay sex and it was probably inspired by this evil book. If it was that bad in recent history I don't even want to think what it was like in 500 BCE or earlier, but I do obviously have to think of it because I can't ignore the evils of the past.

 

I'm not sure how you can ask me to prove that transgender people were erased by the Bible when the vast majority of people had absolutely no idea that transgender people even existed. This means you're bound to misgender people left and right, and it doesn't end at simply misgendering them, it ends at physical violence if they somehow discover your secret. How often do we see hurtful language online or even hear in the news about violence towards us? If it's this bad today, it can only have been hundreds of times worse at a time in history when information was extremely scarce, education was almost unheard of, God did not support you in any way, shape, or form, and literally nobody had an interest in helping us transition medically.

 

I can't fathom thinking 500 BCE or 25 CE, when Jesus gave up his job and went preaching, was some kind of ideal, God-given blessing. We have officially moved on from the Bible at a national level and there's an entire history behind that starting with secularism in Europe. But there are still people who want to reverse that, either immediately by their own hands or eventually in the hands of God.

So, you can't cite Scripture to prove your point. Did not think you could. Also, one of the things that Jesus preached was that He fulfilled the law, and that we are no longer bound by the old Jewish covenant. You cite Deuteronomy, which again, we are no longer bound by.

 

As to how I can ask you to cite the Scripture in the Bible that condemns being trans, well, you originally cited both Romans and Revelation. I merely asked you to provide the chapters and verses that support your position. And as for "moving on from the Bible," you have just greatly insulted millions of people of faith in this nation and throughout the world. I'm not asking you to believe as I do, or as any other person of faith does--be they Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Wiccan, Buddhist or other. 

 

And, so you will know, Christianity is not some monolithic block. For example, my denomination (PCUSA) ordains gays, performs same sex marriage and I was not defrocked when I came out as trans. This holds true for many other mainstream denominations including the Anglican Communion, the Evangelical Lutherans, Methodists  and Nazarenes to name but a few. 

 

And, while I will concede that there have been many, too many, inexcusable acts and doctrines promulgated in the Name of God (and not confined to Christianity) nowhere in the New testament--Christian theology--is any specific group or class of people condemned. I know you're angry at Christianity--it shows in the tone of your posts--but, I ask you, how can you condemn an entire faith from the actions of a few denominations whose understanding of Scripture may be different from the mainstream?

[Marcie Jensen]

1 hour ago, Jandi said:

This is certainly true.  I have been in a number of groups that insisted in the book being the inerrant word of God. (biblical inerrancy is the belief that the Bible is without error or fault in all its teaching)  Some even insisting on specifically the KJV.  After all, it is the "authorized" version.

 

I make no claim to be a biblical scholar, but I have lived most of my life under its influence.  

 

In my previous life I struggled with the "apparent" inconsistencies in the book.  I even purchased a thick book that promised to explain all this.   It was largely smoke and mirrors.

 

As I have already said, I have no animosity toward Christians.  But it was only when I got free, that I was finally able to face my gender issues - which I had been repressing out of fear for most of my life.  I didn't reject it to justify myself, I feel it was the opposite.

 

I will include a poem I wrote at the time.  I apologize in advance if it offends anyone…

 

This body is dying now

Soon to go back to the earth

 

And what of me

Will I finally be free

Or

Just go to sleep at last

 

Heaven or hell

An absurdity

Who could be the judge?

Thank you Jandi.  Your point--especially about the KJV-- is well taken. And often misinterpreted.  I've actually encountered people who insist that if "1603 English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!' *SHUDDER* They seem to ignore that Jesus spoke Aramaic and Hebrew.

 

And, whether we like it or not, we are all under its influence as that's what English Common Law was based on and what our own laws ultimately derive from.

 

As for the apparent inconsistencies and books to explain them, yeah. There are a lot of them out there and they are mostly smoke and mirrors.

[Artpetal]

You pretty obviously haven't read the Bible from cover to cover if you don't know what I'm referring to. I did cite the exact wording of the verses in question so I don't know what your issue is. I've read it from cover to cover myself, and I started as a young child, so yeah not sure why Christians always pretend their book doesn't say what it says.