A judge blocks the “Stop WOKE Act," a Florida law restricting how schools discuss race

[Davie]

A federal judge on Thursday blocked a Florida law restricting how workplaces and schools can discuss race during required training or instruction championed by Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R).  U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Florida Chief Judge Mark Walker issued a preliminary injunction blocking the law, known as the “Stop WOKE Act,” saying it violates free speech protections under the First Amendment and that it violates the Fourteenth Amendment’s Due Process Clause for being impermissibly vague.  “Recently, Florida has seemed like a First Amendment upside down,” Walker wrote in the ruling,

https://news.yahoo.com/judge-blocks-desantis-stop-woke-212740635.html

 

[Carolyn Marie]

Excellent news.  DeSantis seems to think that the only free speech is that which he agrees with, or that which he imposes.  It. Doesn't. Work. Like. That. 

 

Carolyn Marie

[VickySGV]

A few of my ancestors were slave owners at the time the Constitution was written, and did a lot of things that helped get the U.S. going.  The fact they owned slaves in the time they lived and did things was simply the way life was for them and the people they knew.  In this day and age I can see the wrongness that was there, but I cannot change that.

 

I was a hiring/evaluating supervisor for my state for over 15 years and had employees whose ancestors had been slaves.  It was easy for me to rate and in two cases promote them based on fairness and demonstrated ability and achievement. One of the two people actually was promoted to my position when I retired from it, and all of the others of all the diversity I supervised told me they all felt they and I had made a good team.  I owed my employees dignity but it was not a burden to me, in fact it was natural I act that way.

 

My ancestors had been close relatives of two U.S. Presidents, but I had only  been a low level state supervisor.  I am happy with what I did and feel no guilt for my ancestors personal  actions and treating all of my employees as team mates with needed skills is what is suited for today, not the other.  I have nothing to be ashamed of and things to be content with if not proud of.  Why the ever living heck can't people handle it as badly as I have tried to do??  I am not a saint, but I am honest to myself and others and not be afraid. 

[KayC]

Its a start ... hope it can hold up at higher courts.

7 hours ago, Carolyn Marie said:

DeSantis seems to think that the only free speech is that which he agrees with, or that which he imposes. 

Yep!  that's the way it works for those who have no true philosophy or concern for the welfare of others.

[Vidanjali]

This is awesome. I hope it's the first thread in untangling all the fear-based, ignorant nonsense DeSantis has pushed through. The point of education is not to make white people feel guilty. If a white person laments once learning about racism, then that's a first step towards reconciling themselves to become a more enlightened person. Having hurt feelings because white people did a lot of ignorant stuff historically is not discrimination. 

[Davie]

5 hours ago, Vidanjali said:

This is awesome. I hope it's the first thread in untangling all the fear-based, ignorant nonsense DeSantis has pushed through.

I hope so, too. I pray for all those Florida folks, knowing it could happen anywhere, if things don't change for the better.

Something better? This poll below is good news for the future, I hope.

 

--RECENT-- "VOTER" Poll Shows

@CharlieCrist Leading #DeSantis by "4" POINTs

@ValDemings Leading #Rubio by "2" Points

[awkward-yet-sweet]

I dislike and disagree with the political Woke agenda...for the same reason I disagree with the Florida law against it.  Vagueness, and government.  We need to be learning history in detail for what it is. Both the good and the bad.  Wokeness seems to be to be about division - who hurt whom.  The nasty things of the past are a factor (and not to be covered up,) but I disagree with making them a focus.  We need unity, togetherness, and sharing what we hold in common if we are going to heal.  I see people doing that in spite of the schools and the government, rather than because of it.  At least in my community, I see people reaching out, loving each other, and just being human in ways that would have been unthinkable in the rural South 50 years ago.  We're doing it as neighbors.  Not the agitators and politicians. 

 

[Ivy]

9 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

We need to be learning history in detail for what it is. Both the good and the bad. 

This.

 

The US does have a lot of historical baggage - like most other countries.  Pretending it isn't true doesn't change it.  I don't feel personal guilt over these things, but refusing to acknowledge them in the name of "Patriotism" is flat out evil.

 

For my own part, I need to examine myself to recognize the prejudices I do have (and I do have them) and free myself from their destructive influences on myself and others around me.

[Davie]

17 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

political Woke agenda

Quoting Trump's lies won't get you very far on this site. Good luck.

[Carolyn Marie]

2 hours ago, Davie said:

Quoting Trump's lies won't get you very far on this site. Good luck.

 

Everyone has the right to express their opinion here, @Davie, whether we agree or not.

 

Carolyn Marie

[Heather Nicole]

19 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

Wokeness seems to be to be about division - who hurt whom.

 

It really isn't. That's just one of the falsehoods that certain groups have  been spreading in order to score political points so they can and stop equality and allow unconstrained discrimination.

 

19 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

The nasty things of the past are a factor (and not to be covered up,) but I disagree with making them a focus.  We need unity, togetherness, and sharing what we hold in common if we are going to heal.

 

That's exactly what wokeness is all about, and has always been. Recognizing that injustices do exist so that they can be fixed.

[Heather Nicole]

2 minutes ago, Heather Nicole said:

That's exactly what wokeness is all about, and has always been. Recognizing that injustices do exist so that they can be fixed.

 

For example, we can't stop transphobia or anti-trans discrimination if we pretend such things doesn't exist. And recognizing that transphobia exists isn't about creating division or getting back at anyone, it's about ending inequality and creating equality.

 

Replace "transphobia" with "homopbobia", "racism", "antisemitism", etc, etc etc, and it's all still works exactly the same.

 

This is what "Woke" is, and has always been.

[VickySGV]

My law degree is 46 years old and we were just beginning to study the issues that created the Study Of Systematic Injustice to minorities by social "majorities". I am white and had Black and Brown classmates in that Law School and they made me see where laws were a greater burden to various groups of people without making me feel guilty, merely informed, and I could see where I could help the situation for all.

I am now in a social minority or two myself and it is good to know.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

@Heather Nicole Injustices definitely exist...I'm not sure that anybody can really deny that (except for maybe some rabid supremacist types.)  Unfortunately those who want to dictate "Woke" upon us may actually be creating more injustice, rather than less.  Woke seems to overlook ethnicity, instead addressing a blanket and inaccurate idea of skin color.   It seems to go beyond teaching history, attacking the philosophical values of the founding of the nation.  That part makes me sad, because it was the amazing values of this nation and the philosophy behind it that attracted my family to the USA.  My grandparents and my parents left a nation run by an oppressive military dictatorship that controlled every aspect of life, including cultural expression and education.  

 

I distrust both national sides of the issue.  Both Woke and anti-Woke.  I distrust both Trump and Biden, both Right and Left...because centralization is a problem.  Because categorizing people is a problem.  Handing down dictates on curriculum from DC or from the state capitol is a problem. 

[Heather Nicole]

1 hour ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

Unfortunately those who want to dictate "Woke" upon us may actually be creating more injustice, rather than less.

 

I've seen all of this, and it IS all a genuine lie that the 1%'s puppets like Ben Shapiro are paid big-$$$ to evangelize in order to promote and pre-civil rights racial bigotry.

 

1 hour ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

Woke seems to overlook ethnicity, instead addressing a blanket and inaccurate idea of skin color.   It seems to go beyond teaching history, attacking the philosophical values of the founding of the nation.

 

None of this is remotely true. Where is any of this even coming from??? This literally is the "poisoning the well" fallacy that rich bigots (literally including the 1930's German Nazi party) use to turn people against things like basic equality, unity, civil rights, women's suffrage, trans rights, etc. None of it has ever been remotely true.

 

It's literally called "Woke", because WAKE UP!!!!

[Davie]

Thanks @Heather Nicole

Well put.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

@Heather Nicole Hopefully all that bold print doesn't mean you're yelling at me....I didn't mean to irritate you.  I kind of think my perspective on this has been misunderstood a bit.  

 

No idea about Ben Shapiro...I actually had to look up who that is.  We don't have TV in our house, and Fox News isn't my thing.  Had to look up the definition of the "poisoning the well" phrase too.  Not quite sure what you're getting at, because what I found said "adverse information about a target which is preemptively presented to an audience."  Maybe I found the wrong definition?

 

I got my view of this issue from reading materials, like some of the essays that are part of the "1619 Project."  My husband teaches politics and other subjects to youth in our community, and presented it as one of multiple perspectives on current issues.  That sort of use encourages critical thinking.  What disturbs me is when materials are used in schools to promote a single perspective as "the truth." 

 

What I'm trying to express most here is that I believe the real problem is the almost unchecked power of the state.  The state which uses paradigms such as Left/Right and White/Black to divide and conquer. 

[VickySGV]

Admin Hat on here.  To ALL members on this topic. We are getting very close to personal attacks here which is clearly against Community Rule 6.   Debating an idea is OK but attacking another member is NOT OK.  This subject is a Hot Button topic in the public sector right now and our members do reflect the public as well as their own experiences.  This is a second warning from an Admin here to cool things down and the next time will be a shut down of the topic.  Thank you.

[Betty K]

Hi everyone. If you don’t mind my saying, I think part of the problem here is that no-one has really defined the central term of this discussion. “Woke” is such a vague term. Mostly, these days, I hear it used by people who are opposed by it. I don’t hear anyone claiming they are woke. In that way, it reminds me of the term “hipster”, which became such a sarcastic put-down about a decade ago. Can I suggest, moving forward, that a clearer definition of what is actually being discussed might help keep things peaceful. 

[Betty K]

On 8/20/2022 at 9:59 PM, Jandi said:

For my own part, I need to examine myself to recognize the prejudices I do have (and I do have them) and free myself from their destructive influences on myself and others around me.

 

Power to you, Jandi. Consider me an ally.

[Betty K]

18 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

I kind of think my perspective on this has been misunderstood a bit.  

 

Hi @awkward-yet-sweet, maybe it would help us understand if you gave a specific example of a case which supports your argument. You know, like something that happened to a person or people demonstrating why unchecked state power is dangerous when used in the service of “wokeness”. 

 

As to the Ben Shapiro stuff, a lot of us are wary whenever we hear someone arguing against the so-called “woke agenda” because that phrase has been popularised and exploited by Shapiro and his ilk, many of whom refuse to acknowledge or respect our beliefs about gender and frequently dog-whistle to far-right extremists who threaten us (that is, trans people) with violence and social exclusion. That is not to say that you are one of those people, but the language you are using does tend to make some trans people defensive.

 

 

[Heather Nicole]

2 hours ago, Betty K said:

If you don’t mind my saying, I think part of the problem here is that no-one has really defined the central term of this discussion. “Woke” is such a vague term. Mostly, these days, I hear it used by people who are opposed by it. I don’t hear anyone claiming they are woke.

 

There is nothing vague about the term "woke"; this whole issue is nothing but a clear and classic case of the basic, plain old ordinary strawman fallacy.

 

The term "Woke" (just like what's been done to "CRT", in case anyone needs an analog for comparison), has exactly one meaning, and that is the meaning that the term was created and already well-established with. With either term, the groups using them as a negative genuinely, really, have been using the classic strawman tactic. (This is actual, real objective verifiable history here, by the way, not speculation.)

 

Here's how the trick works (and yes, it is a "trick", a "con"):

 

The original objectors to ideas like "woke" and "CRT", for whatever reason they may have had, went and invented completely new, different, false meanings of the terms (ie, the "strawmen") which, unlike the very real already-established meanings, were specially-crafted to mean something completely different from the true meaning - something very conveniently easy to refute. As with any other instance of the basic strawman fallacy, the attacker falsely asserts (or really, often just merely implies) that their own fake meaning is the "real" meaning, then proceed to attack and destroy NOT the real thing, but instead just their very own "strawman" - the fake notion they themselves created. The real meaning is never even acknowledged, let alone debated.

 

The result? People get tricked into thinking the "strawman" is valid (it is not and never was) and voice objection to something they literally don't know anything about, other than clear lies.

 

[Heather Nicole]

A more succinct illustration I found of how the strawman works (Thanks, Internet! 😀 )

 

 

This literally is the essence of what's happened with the word "woke".

[Betty K]

Hi @Heather Nicole I understand and agree but I think the problem is language is not set in stone. If enough people use a term in a certain way — especially if that term is a recently-coined (ie, not hundreds of years old) slang term like “woke” — then there’s a very real possibility that word will lose or change its meaning, or grow another meaning. Think of what popular usage did to the word “literally”, which now, in many if not most people’s minds, means the exact opposite of what it meant originally.

[Betty K]

Ha! I see you used the word “literally” (correctly, I might add) in your last comment.

 

And yes, I’m aware of the various logical fallacies. But I don’t think everyone currently using the word “woke” is similarly aware.