Sexual Orientation - MTF with Gay men?

[swallow]

Hi,

 

Wondering how people feel about sexual orientation particularly MTF...I know there is a wide variation.

 

Recently I started playing soccer/training with an LGBTQ group...which I'm still in two minds whether its a wise decision.🤔

 

Mostly because whilst I am no where near aggressive (and dislike aggressive players), I am extremely competitive and cannot help putting in 110% each time I play such sports...which with my age means I have been largely doubled over trying to recover my breath after each effort.😅

 

The first session happened to be with an all Gay male group. I felt a bit awkward honestly like the odd one out even though they were very accommodating to me. but I was expecting a Co-Ed  group. The all male group seem so much more intense and I suppose I thought I was going to have a more relaxed session if there were some girls around.

 

Fortunately the second session, there were a bunch of women including the trainer. Unfortunately, it wasn't any less strenuous and in fact the trainer well, she was relentless on us.😛

 

Anyway I was writing mainly bc oddly whilst not being attracted to anyone specifically, I did find the Gay men present ALL so robust. I guess these were the bears.

 

I can't say it felt kinda nice to be in and around them.😄

 

It got me thinking whether I would ever be attracted to a Gay man (I believe they call "bears") since after all, it is the male energy I am attracted to (although some of them were sufficiently eye candy as well)

 

Mostly I am NOT attracted to Gay men but you couldn't tell the difference with some of these Gay men and their straight counterparts.

 

I recall back in high school, I had a moment with a close friend who came out to me as Gay and professed his love for me.

 

I was so offended and angry with him back then. Its something I have deep regrets of course about my behaviour then.

 

Later I realised largely bc him being Gay would mean he was seeing me as another male rather than the female I had to be to feel correct with a male being attracted to me.

 

Not that I would have been in love with him either way of course. 😁

 

The same feeling of needing to be perceived as female in order to accept the (romantic) attention of a male governs any possible relationship with a Gay man.

 

Yet I wondered if the Gay men on the field actually saw me as a female or still as male but on the girlish side.😬

 

Would I be able to accept an interest if so?

 

I suppose if the Gay man had an interest in me sexually that had some focus on my genitalia, that would be a deal breaker.

 

but certainly if a Gay man treated me as female but perhaps was more comfortable with me since I have male elements, I am not sure if I would not be chuffed by the attention.🥰

 

I suppose I'd have to ask some Gay men in time to find out how I am perceived from their POV.

 

This is such a deeply complex issue.

 

I wonder if any MTFs have had relationship with Gay men before? Or is this just an impossibility?

 

 

[Betty K]

Hi Swallow, nice to meet you.

 

In my experience gay men are very rarely interested in trans women. I have heard of it happening but it has never happened to me. Generally, guys who like me identify as straight, with a few bisexuals thrown in. I've often wondered whether they are in fact really straight (given the obsession some of them have with my private parts -- ugh) but the point is they don't identify as gay.

 

This is part of why I often feel a little out of place at LGBT events. I like the people at those events, but they are certainly not good places to meet prospective sexual partners.

[swallow]

Hi Betty,

 

Thanks for sharing!

 

Curious how your straight relationship developed?

 

Fortunately for me I'm not entirely interested in entering the dating pool at this point of time, I'm feeling pretty content being self sufficient.

 

but I can't help but be prey to male attention.☺️

 

A little bit of kindness from them goes a long way.

 

I feel very nice when they are extra sweet to me on the pitch, after a hard crunching tackle, they come and check if I am OK.😄

 

The captain informed me there was a separate Non-Binary/Transgender group within the LGBTQ soccer group, but I told him I just want to compete at the highest level regardless of sex, so long of course as I cut the grade.😑

 

Besides, there were women in the main group as well so I did not feel out of place.

 

Ordinarily, I am not susceptible to Gay men many of whom are quite fishy (in the Queen version of that word), but these Gay men (more so in the West) seem so manly.

 

I guess the issue would be as you say if they are attracted to the likes of us at all.🤔

 

It would be a turn off for me too if they were obsessed by my male bits (even if I have resorted to giving her a female name)🤭

 

I guess I'll have to find out from them how they feel about Transgender women. I'm not particularly girly even if I look feminine so I wonder if they are less put off bc of that.

 

I'm of course not looking to start a relationship with a Gay man but was just curious how the dynamics work since the dating pool for Transgender women is obviously much more restricted.🙄

 

Ultimately for myself, I am very much more neutral in attraction to people, I don't think I am oriented to either sex specifically.

 

Women are attractive to me for different reasons from men. I like the male energy in men over the physical looks.

 

Going down this path for near 11 months on, I am starting to explore this other side of me more.

 

My interest in the soccer activity of course being strictly sporting in nature of course... but it triggered these thoughts from my usual nagging curiosity.😬

 

 

 

 

[Betty K]

Whoa, wait a second, I never said I was in a straight relationship! I’m not in any sexual/romantic relationship atm. I have had a lot of dates and hookups since starting to transition two years ago, and I’ve interacted with a lot (let’s say 500-1000) men online. 

 

I agree about male attention. I am susceptible to it too. That’s why I’ve given up on online dating sites for now, because I was relying on them to bolster my ego. That just wasn’t healthy. Also they are very addictive. And besides, I really would like a more serious relationship one day.

 

I think gay men come in all shapes and sizes. Since I like men, obviously I may sometimes be attracted to gay men. I can’t help it; it’s biology. But who cares? Not every man I like is going to like me.

 

For most of my life (I am in my 40s) I had sex with women and for most of my life I *identified* as a hereto male.Only when I realised and accepted I was transfeminine did I realise I far preferred men. Maybe I will become open to sex with women again one day, but for now I just admire their beauty with no sexual interest whatsoever. 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by VickySGV
Corrected per poster,

[KathyLauren]

I doubt if you can make any generalizations.  There are gay and straight trans women, just as there are gay and straight trans men, cis men and cis women.

 

I personally, have never had any interest in men.  Back when I thought I was male, I figured that I was a straight male.  Now that I know I am female, I am a gay female.  I am only attracted to women.  If I wasn't married, I could possibly see a romantic attraction to a man happening, but I could not see a sexual relationship working.  I find male sexuality gross.

 

I do know quite a few self-identified gay and bi men on another forum who are attracted to trans women, especially pre- and non-op trans women.  I find that weird.  It is as if they are attracted to femininity, but still want gay male sex.  Or maybe it is an expression their own homophobia: they get male sex organs in the bedroom, but appear in public to be dating a woman.

 

I haven't had any gay males show any interest in me.  The ones I know in the theatre group all know I am a happily married lesbian, so the opportunity just doesn't arise.

[stveee]

I don't think a gay man would truly see me as a woman, most would see me as a femme gay person with pronouns or something and that would be a problem for me. 

I see gay men a little differently now, and appreciate the most that I have met are just sweethearts and regular guys and not overly flamey or butch either but there is pretty much no doubt I am a trans lesbian. I think I could even be more attracted to women now than before HRT, but I attribute that to feeling confident and authentic.

Maybe part of this has to do with some of the trad LGB and the Ts being considered separate in some communities. It seems like back even before the internet trans women were basically considered full-time drag queens and were saw through a lens of sexualization. *Although Natalie Wynn made a joke about that in one of her vids and found it hilarious...

There is also the the old school strictly binary MTF transition that I was first exposed to and needing to assimilate above all else. I was basically rejected because I was viewed as only queer at that time, a transvestite because of my fashion style which was opposite of the older women's subdued grandma frocks and long hemlines. I think even then it was very rare for pre-ops to even be considered women at all, so they were known as TS. 

I found my sexuality to be more of a signifier of a larger truth than being the truth itself. 

We all like attention, but early in transition like young girls the excitement of expressing our sexuality and being validated can be intoxicating and hopefully we continue to mature and realize relationships are complicated and require a lot of responsibility.

[swallow]

Yah, ANY fixation with my genitalia (as is) from a male (straight or gay) will be a  strict no go for me. 🙄

 

As I am right now in trial and error mode with my voice, my thoughts are that I may present maybe extremely "fishy Gay" for some of these men.🤔

 

Maybe my most modest but still obvious tits are a give away but I would be curious if Pre-Op, how Gay men perceive me. They did respectfully ask me how I preferred to be identified/gendered.

 

I certainly still feel it would be hard for me to accept someone who perceives me as male.😑

 

Perhaps when I am slightly further down the transition road, it would be easier to filter out the wrong interest.

 

All the same, its kinda nice to have the attention these days from being gendered "Miss" (not Mam mind you) at the supermarket check out (with some patient frustration that I am not able to figure out the self check out system) to being given the right of the way on the road.

 

And of course the "care" shown by the Gay men not to tackle me "too hard" (you just know they are holding back) on the pitch also equally appreciated even if I show no quarters in return ( I have to remind myself to be slightly more ladylike)😬

 

Seems like if I were to see someone (male or female) ever again, it would be a challenging, convoluted and complicated audition/interview process for them on my part. I guess there must be a way to make that fun too, incorporate it into the courting process😁

 

 

 

 

[swallow]

Betty,

 

My bad assuming that.😬

 

I suppose this Men thing is an entirely new frontier for me and I am only just trying to figure things out.

 

As I perceive myself as more and more female (certainly from my now emerging body shape), I am getting more receptive to the attention.

 

I often feel with women, my worry would be expectation. They would certainly understand that I won't be able to offer anything substantial beyond oral (which thankfully I was told I am pretty decent with)🤭

 

I think at present I would feel more comfortable in a relationship with a female than a male.

 

Any male interest for me presently may likely be a short term affair. Perhaps I have difficulties trusting Men bc my Dad use to cheat on my mom. 😔

 

If it were short term, then there is less expectation on my part.

 

In any case, since I lost my wife/partner some five years back, I am not sure if I can take on another person in my life that close. It was too painful first time round for me to think of even risk repeating such a loss again.

 

[Betty K]

3 hours ago, swallow said:

Perhaps I have difficulties trusting Men bc my Dad use to cheat on my mom.

 

You and me both, honey. Not only that, Dad used to bash Mum. And then there are all the macho bullies who used to pick on me for being girlish. So I agree, it can be hard to trust men. But I know some decent ones (friends from my former life “as a man”), and I’m sure there are others out there.

 

3 hours ago, swallow said:

Any male interest for me presently may likely be a short term affair

 

I hear you. That’s exactly how I felt at first too. I was pretty sure I didn’t want to get involved with a man; it was just too weird. And you’re lucky, because in my experience most guys who are interested in trans girls are only interested in short term for exactly the same reason, because it feels too weird to think of having a relationship with us. So if you decide to experiment you should have plenty of options. But ultimately what I realised is I really do want a deeper connection.

 

3 hours ago, swallow said:

I often feel with women, my worry would be expectation.

 

For me it’s as simple as this: I don’t want to make love in the male role ever again. If a woman could relate to me as feminine then maybe we could have some chemistry, but for me the chemistry I feel with men is just so much more compelling and fascinating. I just love how feminine they (or some of them) make me feel. Maybe I’ll grow out of that the more assured I feel of my own femininity, I don’t know. For now I’m just happy to have made this discovery.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

11 hours ago, Betty K said:

For most of my life (I am in my 40s) I had sex with women and for most of my life I *identified* as a hereto male.Only when I realised and accepted I was transfeminine did I realise I far preferred men. Maybe I will become open to sex with women again one day, but for now I just admire their beauty with no sexual interest whatsoever.

Interesting how your physical transition also brought about a sexual transition.  It kind of has for me as well.  I was lesbian until I met my husband, then became sort of bisexual.  But figuring out that I can experience having a male body has put my desire for my husband to the front of my awareness.  Its like I have to have contact with a body that is like my own. 

 

10 minutes ago, Betty K said:

You and me both, honey. Not only that, Dad used to bash Mum. And then there are all the macho bullies who used to pick on me for being girlish. So I agree, it can be hard to trust men. But I know some decent ones (friends from my former life “as a man”), and I’m sure there are others out there.

"Hard to trust men" seems to be a theme for women in general.  I grew up in a law enforcement and military family, with a very rough father, uncle, and brothers.  The men were expected to be men, and the women too!  There just wasn't a place for an artist in that mix.  My husband intrigued me from the beginning, partly because of my daddy and brother issues.  He's got the military, law enforcement, and management thing going on...but with a soft side that was an amazing and unexpected surprise. 

 

A lot of it is like @swallow pointed out in the original post - there's a difference between competitiveness and aggression.  I think a lot of men don't see the difference.  I play soccer too, and I like healthy competition.  But my emotional sensitivity does not enjoy an aggressive experience.  I've noticed that same thing in relationships.  It is great when a man can be aggressive toward an external threat to his family...not great if that same aggression comes out within a family. 

 

I haven't spent a lot of time around gay men, so I wonder if there is a reduced level of aggression among them than among straight men?  Would that be a relationship advantage if that (admittedly broad) generality could be true?  I've noticed that women and gay men often have good friendships, but perhaps that is due to reduced sexual tension instead of reduced aggression?

 

 

 

 

 

[swallow]

@awkward-yet-sweet

 

Its a self acceptance issue IMHO. I can't for the life of me feel right if I was presenting as male to another male. Just not on for me. OTOH, I don't necessarily have to completely have full form of a woman but if I am close enough for a guy to psychologically except me as female (not just feminine male), I'd consider going further.🙂

 

With regards aggression, yes I am not comfortable being shouted at. I've had enough of that in the military. As soon as they gender me female most men tend to be far gentler to me and careful.😌

 

I have not hammed up or feminized my mannerism too much as I've always felt I had very neutral behaviour which could go both ways depending on another's interpretation of my physical aspect.

 

There's a part of me that feels I want to lay it out as is and not mislead anyone, off the bat make known I am female but transgender (which is more acceptable these days). In a way this has curtailed my voice change since I do feel somewhat a fraud IF I did not present equally outside.

 

but with the obvious changes now 11 months in, I catch myself in the mirror and remind myself I have to adjust appropriately since I am seeing female looking back, what more others and how incongruous then is the voice.🙄

 

Its spurred more effort in the voice department.

 

Certainly when I had thoughts as to whether the Gay men may be attracted to me as a very feminine male, it also triggered me to feel I should double down on efforts with my voice so there are no illusions as such.😬

[swallow]

@Betty K

Me I just automatically assume they are there for the ride and won't be around for long...they'd have to jump through a lot of hoops lit with fire for me to prove they are really serious about a long term thingy.😬

 

I had a rollicking good time with my wife when younger. We were two peas in the pod. 🤗

 

but as the years rolled on, kids, reality, it was increasingly harder to fulfill the bedroom. I suppose I was increasingly feeling awkward. I couldn't relax she would say.🙄

 

Maybe it was the pressure of fulfilling the active role of being "The man" when I was too comfortable with being passive/receptive/parenting. We had a sort of role reversal.

 

I think if I came out, she would have been supportive of me unquestioningly as she always has. A very generous person. but things might have changed regardless since I could not meet her needs as a woman fully which would have been unfair on her.

 

I think we both clung on for a bit muddling through bc of the kids, neither wanting to really open the can of worms.

 

But then the cancer.😔

 

I've had opportunity recently to mull about renewed relationships as five years have passed.

 

An old friend came to visit and people kept remarking how we were quite the pair. But she's equally as chaotic as me sometimes that's why. Perhaps its more entertaining looking at us but a different story if we were truly together🤭

 

I did not think we would really be that good for each other when things had to settle and she had commitments to someone anyway still.

 

Still I crave for the easy banter between my wife and I which was different from my mates (even if the male conversations are always hilarious if sometimes bordering on crude/obscene)

 

Perhaps since I haven't been in a relationship with a man, it is too dismissive to assume otherwise for now.

 

I guess at my age, it doesn't matter who loves me which gender so long as its genuine and they jump through those hoops.😁

 

 

 

 

 

 

[swallow]

Hi Katie23,

 

Yes sexuality is such a strange thing for me.

 

When I was younger, I had no end to (harmless) harassment from Gay men who professed their desire to "corrupt" me.😐

 

I figured that was just their thing, they were seemingly always -excited- and got off testing the boundaries teasing me.

 

I've always been on the slight and pretty side but growing up, I pretty much missed any of the bullying or ostracising in school despite.

 

...partly I guess because I had no issue with male activities like sport and wasn't terribly girly in manners, partly I felt I was the runt so somehow the boys in my class always seem to take me under their wing as their younger brother. In fact the girls did too. There was a kind of protective instinct I suppose when it came to me. Everyone thought I was from a grade or two below them.🥺

 

Even today, I wonder if this is an issue since invariably people seem to want to offer me assistance or as mentioned graciously give way to me at traffic junctions...although the latter could also be an indictment of being partly "Asian woman behind the wheel" these days, and in any case I suppose I must tend to look confused or clueless much of the time to warrant concern.🤭

 

But even into the military, the sergeants majors/NCOs in charge treated me differently. It wasn't that I was small bc by then I had a reasonable growth spurt and was a shy 5'9.

 

but I was smaller more daintily built, my skull I noticed was smaller than the other guys and my upper body was weak.

 

Of course being in a military environment is akin to prison.🙄

 

Again, I attracted this time the attention of both Gay and so to speak straight men.

 

The Gay men I had to delicately negotiate, some of whom were not allergic to using their power to coax me into acts.😨

 

The "straight men" were surprising since many of these were the GungHo over decorated types with badges from everything pinned to them and hard as nails. One sergeant would very brazenly and openly shout out across the parade square his intention for me to come over and suck him off, which was embarrassing to say the least.

 

I wondered if they felt it was male dominance, a show of the Alpha sort of thing. In any case, despite some harassment, they were fairly respectful to me in the end, brushing it off as hazing or teasing and all part of the process of making me "harder"

 

I also in my private moments away from the theatre of being in front of their men saw a more gentle vulnerable side beneath their hardened exteriors which almost made me want to hug them. Goodness knows what demons they are living with.😳

 

of course despite passing through some of the tougher courses in the military, I was still pretty me. Even as I went through intense physical training, I was cut but still delicately sized, small boned. A friend of mine would comment he recognised me from afar because of my butt sticking out.😄

 

Fortunately I more than exceeded performance parameter expectations for the military which were prob otherwise somewhat disappointed there was no visible physical Captain America transformation of my body otherwise.😬

 

In any case all this got me somewhat thinking whether the Gay men were attracted to me because I was a pretty male or the straight men were into me because I was the next best thing in camp to a woman.

 

I couldn't begin to figure out what men wanted beyond the fact that most were constantly -excited- in that environment.

 

How I managed to survive not getting violated against my will was beyond me.😅

 

Now that I am transitioning, I'm looking at it again from a different side of myself. I like to think I'm pretty close to the median between male and female and have simply just crossed over naturally to the other side of the line.

 

Now I'm thinking instead are Gay men not interested in me because I am too feminine looking or are straight men not interested in me because I am still too male for them.

 

How confusing.

 

Well..only perhaps those robust Special Forces types will still show interest, they'd -expletive- about anything that moves I reckon.😄

 

 

[Betty K]

@swallow, I’m very sorry to hear about your wife’s passing. That must have been a terrible loss. Just the shock of breaking up with my second wife two years ago was enough to first make me contemplate suicide and then force me out of the closet once and for all. But I count myself lucky now because my ex-wife and I have a wonderful friendship and she is one of my biggest allies and supporters in my transition. I wish your wife could have lived so that you could have experienced her support during your transition.

 

In some ways you and I are similar (though I definitely did not miss out on being bullied at school). Men, both gay and straight, have often either charmingly or forcefully tried to seduce me and I have had my share of the sort of sexual harassment you describe (being brazenly asked for oral sex by a supposedly straight man, for eg). I think even some of the bullies were attracted to me. Ironically, of course, I was not interested in any of those guys for as long as I identified as a male. I am not, and never was, a gay man.

 

I am guessing that you will have no trouble finding straight (or ostensibly straight) men who desire you given that they desired you even before you transitioned. I am guessing that many more may desire you now. That has been my experience. As to gay men, as I said, that’s not my area of expertise. 

 

Maybe it’s best if you try not to overthink it? Experiment a bit? See what unfolds?

 

But always be safe. Don’t trust any guy until

youve met him in person. My policy is to always meet in public. After all, if they’re too ashamed or cheap or lazy to take you out then they are not worth your effort. And I prefer to rent a room or apartment if I’m going to have sex. That way I’m not giving them my address and I’m not going to their place either. I have bent this rule and gone to a guy’s place after dating him to make sure I trust him, but I never have them to my place — I am too afraid of stalkers. In my experience the desire some men have for trans girls can be pretty explosive, since in many cases they have suppressed it for many years.

[Betty K]

23 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

Interesting how your physical transition also brought about a sexual transition. 

 

Omg you’re telling me! It has been the weirdest part of all this. The shock of two such sudden recalibration did my identity was pretty overwhelming at first. But it makes sense now. I’m happy about it, and very curious where all this is heading.

[Betty K]

(Ugh, excuse my autocorrected typing. That should say “The shock of two such sudden recalibrations to my identity...”)

[awkward-yet-sweet]

10 minutes ago, Betty K said:

But always be safe. Don’t trust any guy until

youve met him in person. My policy is to always meet in public. After all, if they’re too ashamed or cheap or lazy to take you out then they are not worth your effort. And I prefer to rent a room or apartment if I’m going to have sex. That way I’m not giving them my address and I’m not going to their place either.

Wise words.  Don't let the moment carry away your common sense.

 

When I was contemplating the dating world, I always swore I'd do any meetings in a public place at high noon for lunch.  It didn't end up being that much of a concern because nobody really wanted to date me.  🙄  Then along came my GF, who cornered me...in public.  No plan survives first contact I guess.

[swallow]

Great advise! Duly noted.

 

Meet in public, crowded area and daylight, trust no man...'disposable' safe house...check😎

 

Sounds like a Spy exchange.LOL😄

 

❤️