Why Christmas?

[Marcie Jensen]

A study group I belong to has been examining Christ's nativity for the past couple of weeks. we've looked at Matthew, the tie in with the first words of John's Gospel, and have finished by closely examining the first two chapters of Luke. we have been reading aloud the specific verse we are studying using a number of translations. Each has its own merits and it's interesting how the phrasing may change but the meaning never does. The one translation that hadn't been used until yesterday evening was the King James Version on the grounds (perhaps rightly) that English has changed greatly since 1603 and it was difficult to understand. That changed a bit when one of the girls read the part about the shepherds yesterday. Her argument was that th majestic poetry of Luke's is easy to understand and really brings home why we celebrate Christmas over 2000 years later. This is what she read, beginning with the 8th verse:

 

 

⁸ And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

⁹ And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.

¹⁰ And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

¹¹ For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

¹² And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.

¹³ And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,

¹⁴ Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

 

After she finished, we all agreed she was right. There is something special in the poetry of this passage. It conveys exactly why we celebrate Christmas. It's not because of Santa, and decorated trees or pageants and lights. It's about hope, and love, and grace. And maybe the biggest birthday party ever...

Merry Christmas.

[Charlize]

At this point in my life i feel the wonder and beauty of birth  and life as a miracle.  

 

Hugs,

 

Charlize

[Marcie Jensen]

@CharlizeI couldn't agree more. Yours is a wonderful perspective.

[Willow]

I grew up with the King James Version, then the Revised Standard Version and several others and currently have the New International Version.  But one thing that never seems to change is Luke’s story of Christ’s birth.  
 

Most of the versions are still based on the language of the King James but modernized to be better understood.  This is one story that needs to remain as translated into English in the 16th and 17th centuries.

 

Willow

[awkward-yet-sweet]

I don't think that for the Christian faith a celebration of Christmas should be as big as it is.  Jesus was probably not born in December, more likely in September based on the evidence from the text.  I think it was one of the popes that came up with December 25th as Christianity became common in the Roman Empire.  Easter celebrates the resurrection, and THAT is the main event anyways.  

 

Most of our Christmas celebration is cultural, rather than faithful.  It is a holdover from pre-Christian beliefs of varying kinds, such as European folk religions and especially the Roman Saturnalia.  In essence, some of our holidays are "baptized" pagan holidays.  Some Christian groups even refuse to celebrate Christmas because of that.  I don't see a problem with it...we need something to celebrate around this time of year.  So, celebrate a Joyous "Christma-Hannu-Kwanza-nalia." 

 

As for the text...we use KJV or NKJV here.  My husband studied the Biblical languages years ago, and he found the KJV and NKJV to be a couple of the most literal translations when compared to the Greek original.  He calls NIV a "paraphrase" rather than a literal text.  Interesting for study, but not to be read as exact scripture.  Ancient Greek is somewhat different from modern Greek as spoken by my parents and extended family, but from what I can tell, my husband is right. 

 

 

[Ivy]

I had to memorize the first part of 2nd chapter as a kid.  I can still recite it.  It is a nice passage.

I grew up with the "Authorized" version as well.  That language just seems "Biblical" to me for what it's worth. 

[Marcie Jensen]

19 minutes ago, Willow said:

I grew up with the King James Version, then the Revised Standard Version and several others and currently have the New International Version.  But one thing that never seems to change is Luke’s story of Christ’s birth.  
 

Most of the versions are still based on the language of the King James but modernized to be better understood.  This is one story that needs to remain as translated into English in the 16th and 17th centuries.

 

Willow

Same with me, Willow. I have a really good NIV study Bible that I use daily, a New Jerusalem Bible on my computer when I need the most accurate translation as well as the original Hebrew or Greek, and a KJV that I really like the language of for psalms, Luke 2, proverbs and several other books. There's just something special about the majesty of th KJV; especially when read aloud. My late grandfather always said that Scripture should "roll from the tongue like thunder," and King James certainly does that.

[Ivy]

My understanding is that in the calendar in use at the time, Saturnalia fell on the 25 which was the solstice on that calendar also.

I'm skeptical about the date of Jesus' birth myself.  But I don't think the actual date is the point anyway.

 

I know this is a Christian thread, but I don't claim to be one anymore.  I do keep Yule though.  I don't have any problem with sharing the holidays.

 

[Willow]

@Ivy I believe that you are right to believe that the date of December 25 isn’t accurate.  When scientists and astronomers examine the occurrence of the “Star of Bethlehem “ it is a real event but following the modern calendar could not have occurred on that date.  A lot of things are celebrated on estimated dates the just didn’t realize what we now know about time and dates.

[Marcie Jensen]

5 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

I don't think that for the Christian faith a celebration of Christmas should be as big as it is.  Jesus was probably not born in December, more likely in September based on the evidence from the text.  I think it was one of the popes that came up with December 25th as Christianity became common in the Roman Empire.  Easter celebrates the resurrection, and THAT is the main event anyways.  

 

Most of our Christmas celebration is cultural, rather than faithful.  It is a holdover from pre-Christian beliefs of varying kinds, such as European folk religions and especially the Roman Saturnalia.  In essence, some of our holidays are "baptized" pagan holidays.  Some Christian groups even refuse to celebrate Christmas because of that.  I don't see a problem with it...we need something to celebrate around this time of year.  So, celebrate a Joyous "Christma-Hannu-Kwanza-nalia." 

 

As for the text...we use KJV or NKJV here.  My husband studied the Biblical languages years ago, and he found the KJV and NKJV to be a couple of the most literal translations when compared to the Greek original.  He calls NIV a "paraphrase" rather than a literal text.  Interesting for study, but not to be read as exact scripture.  Ancient Greek is somewhat different from modern Greek as spoken by my parents and extended family, but from what I can tell, my husband is right. 

 

 

Interesting. This reminds me of some of the rather spirited discussions we had in seminary. Regarding the actual dat4e of the nativity, we finally decided it was irrelevant and cited the first two verses of John's Gospel: "In th4 beginning was the word. And the word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." From this we concluded that as Christ is one with God, and has been around since before time, it's impossible to pin down the exact date of God's "birth>" (This followed by hours of theological trivial pursuit...)

 

And I did not meant to imply that Christmas is more important than Easter. My since and deep apologies. Easter is clearly the most important Christian holiday. without the resurrection, the entire faith falls apart.

 

Yes. A lot of Christmas celebrations are cultural and have become commercialized and secularized. That's the point--the reason for the season is Christ, not Walmart, et al. BTW, Christmas is actually celebrated on two separate days, as th4e Greek Orthodox Church never adopted the calendar reforms of the 1700s. Christmas is the official holiday in the USA--has been since 1876--and was actually banned in MA from 1615 until 1859.  But, celebrate whatever holiday you prefer. It's all good.

 

As for the most accurate, or best translations of the Bible, the jury is still out. Most scholars like the New Jerusalem translation, but again use whatever version you like. The meaning doesn't change. In seminary, we used the New Oxford Annotated Bible with Apocrypha as the standard, but outside of seminary, very few use this version.  

 

I also did not mean to stir up debate; I just wanted to gently remind folks why we celebrate Christmas. Again, my apologies.

[Marcie Jensen]

6 minutes ago, Willow said:

@Ivy I believe that you are right to believe that the date of December 25 isn’t accurate.  When scientists and astronomers examine the occurrence of the “Star of Bethlehem “ it is a real event but following the modern calendar could not have occurred on that date.  A lot of things are celebrated on estimated dates the just didn’t realize what we now know about time and dates.

December 25th is most likely not the correct date, but again, it's immaterial. Also, the simple truth is we, humas, aren't really good at math--at least back then. The event of the actual Nativity was most likely in 4 BC. That's when Quirinius was governor of Syria, which has been verified, But again, it's immaterial. Trying to fix the date of birth of an eternal being is an exercise in futility. What's important is the message of hope and love that are behind the celebration.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

@Marcie Jensen I actually grew up Greek Orthodox.  At least in the USA, Christmas was on the 25th.  But I agree with you that the date is immaterial.

 

I find it interesting that so many faiths and cultures have a "something" at this time of year.  We can enjoy the significance of our Christmas, acknowledging that there is a God-created human need for seasons, times, and festivities for community and family. 

 

In my faith community, the emphasis in Christmas is on family - with the Holy Family as an example.  Easter is the big holiday of salvation, Christmas is the holiday of understanding and relationships....of God coming to us to live and experience our lives, hopes, and pain.  The wonder of Christmas is the wonder of a God who valued relationship so much that He entered our physicality to experience it. 

[Willow]

In case it wasn’t evident I wasn’t suggesting I had a different specific date.  Nor do I think science is clearly superior over the word of the Bible.  And no matter what science dreams up or even proves about a big bang, where did the material come from to creat the Big Bang.  You will never convince me that there is a supreme being somewhere somehow.

 

I don’t know Greek and couldn’t possibly translate any passage.  But I have compared passages from every version I have in my home.  Particularly the so called clobber passages.  If you have access to a King James Bible from around 1940 you will see that a number of the referenced passages do not say the Sam thing as the current King James or other versions since.  The earlier version DOES NOT CONDEMN US!  But they all say about Christmas and Easter as two important periods.

[Ivy]

36 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

I find it interesting that so many faiths and cultures have a "something" at this time of year.

The winter solstice?

Having said this, I seem to remember something about these things being given for "times and seasons".  I don't think there is anything wrong in acknowledging them.

[Marcie Jensen]

1 hour ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

@Marcie Jensen I actually grew up Greek Orthodox.  At least in the USA, Christmas was on the 25th.  But I agree with you that the date is immaterial.

Apologies. I should have said "Orthodox communion" or better, "Byzantine Liturgical Tradition." I was oversimplifying. There are 11 different denominations that share this tradition, as well as the Russian Orthodox Church which has 8 self governing branches. This communion celebrates Christmas on January 7 because they use the Julian calendar, as opposed to the Georgian calendar. Again, my apologies.

[Marcie Jensen]

45 minutes ago, Willow said:

I don’t know Greek and couldn’t possibly translate any passage.  But I have compared passages from every version I have in my home.  Particularly the so called clobber passages.  If you have access to a King James Bible from around 1940 you will see that a number of the referenced passages do not say the Sam thing as the current King James or other versions since.  The earlier version DOES NOT CONDEMN US!  But they all say about Christmas and Easter as two important periods.

No need for anyone to translate from Greek or Hebrew. There are too many good ones avaailable.

 

Also, you're spot on, Willow. No version of Scripture that I have ever read or discovered condemns anyone for being trans. It simply isn't there; I don't care which translation you use, transpeople are just not mentioned in Scripture. But, that's a different topic.

 

All I wanted to do with the original post was to remind us all of why we celebrate. I didn't mean for this to turn into the discussion it has become. I sincerely apologize for that, because Christian or pagan, Jew or Gentile, Muslim or Infidel this is a time of joy, hope. love and peace that we should all enjoy; not the commercialized version Christmas has become. I hope that everyone can enjoy whatever holiday they observe during this season and I am sorry I've stirred up such a hornet's nest.

[LaurenA]

3 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

I don't think that for the Christian faith a celebration of Christmas should be as big as it is.  Jesus was probably not born in December, more likely in September based on the evidence from the text.  I think it was one of the popes that came up with December 25th as Christianity became common in the Roman Empire.  Easter celebrates the resurrection, and THAT is the main event anyways.  

 

 

Actually, the dating of Christmas was the christian church borrowing the winter solstice  holiday from the pagans.  It's not the only one they did that to.

[VickySGV]

9 minutes ago, LaurenA said:

christian church borrowing the winter solstice  holiday from the pagans. 

As in the Roman's and their god Mithras Invictus (the unconquerable god) whose birth story is very much like that of Jesus.  Mithraeism and Christianity co-existed in post Roman Britain, Scotland and some in Ireland around 600 to 800 AD. 

Some of what I have been taught is that the Christ Mass was originally a church celebration of Holy Communion in remembrance of God anointing humanity with indwelling presence as shown in the life of Jeshua who became known as the Christus.  ("Christus" is Greek for "anointed one")  Two years ago we did have an alignment of three planets on December 21 which did look like a super big star at the time (I took a picture of it).  Never the less, I will be watching my Church's service at 5:30 on the 24th on line (I cannot drive after dark right now) and enjoying the mystery and awe of the children of parents whom I knew as children and I know full well the magic I feel in my life at the whole experience.