In Video, Trump Vows To Target Doctors Treating Trans People If Re-Elected

[Marcie Jensen]

22 minutes ago, Ivy said:

Yes words are important.  But let's not forget that we are talking about a real situation, not a bunch of hypothetical ideas. 

Absolutely spot on! Genocide DOES equal killing people in the real world. History is full of examples including, but not limited to, the Trail of Tears, the entire 30 years war, the Crusades, the Jewish pogroms of Tsarist Russia, Stalin's purges, the more than 6 million who died in NAZI concentration camps, the actions of Pol Pot and most recently what the Serbs did to the Bosniacs (although they called it ethnic cleansing.) The point being that in actuality genocide always involves mass killings. It always will.

[Davie]

30 minutes ago, Marcie Jensen said:

The point being that in actuality genocide always involves mass killings. It always will.

And the mass gun violence in The United States of America.

[Vidanjali]

35 minutes ago, Davie said:

Why is the GOP escalating attacks on trans rights?

Experts say the goal is to make sure evangelicals vote. 

This is their reason for allowing children to die?

 

Yes.

 

Further, Weyrich coined the term "moral majority" and was involved with Jerry Falwell Sr.'s kingmaking campaign. But it was never about morality. It was not even about abortion. And these days, it's not about the trans population. It's about sensationalizing and scapegoating some issue or population to galvanize voters to elect selected representatives who will quid pro quo further oppress the oppressed and further erase the disenfranchised. 

 

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133/

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/08/abortion-us-religious-right-racial-segregation

 

[Marcie Jensen]

10 minutes ago, Davie said:

And the mass gun violence in The United States of America.

If you are equating the mass shootings in the USA as genocide, which is your right and I support that, the facts simply don't fall in your favor. Here's why: the shootings appear to be random, meaning there doesn't seem to be any specific group being targeted. Second, while absolutely horrific (particularly in the case of school shootings), the numbers are so few in regard to the general population that they don't rise to the level of genocide, meaning that one particular group is being singled out and the shooters are all so called "lone wolves" from across the ideological spectrum. As all of my Georgia relatives would say, "that dog just won't hunt."

 

Please don't misunderstand. I think all mass shootings are wrong. Period. And my heart goes out to the families of the victims. That said, it isn't genocide.

 

One other interesting piece of trivia. Virtually all of these shootings take place in gun free zones. Ever wonder why that is?

[Marcie Jensen]

12 minutes ago, Vidanjali said:

Further, Weyrich coined the term "moral majority" and was involved with Jerry Falwell Sr.'s kingmaking campaign. But it was never about morality. It was not even about abortion. And these days, it's not about the trans population. It's about sensationalizing and scapegoating some issue or population to galvanize voters to elect selected representatives who will quid pro quo further oppress the oppressed and further erase the disenfranchised. 

Very well put!!!

[Carolyn Marie]

3 hours ago, Marcie Jensen said:

Please don't misunderstand. I think all mass shootings are wrong. Period. And my heart goes out to the families of the victims. That said, it isn't genocide.

 

One other interesting piece of trivia. Virtually all of these shootings take place in gun free zones. Ever wonder why that is?

 

That is simply untrue, @Marcie Jensen.  California is the only state that fits with your statement.  The definitions of "mass shootings" differ by the site or organization which collects the info, but the stats are consistent as far as numbers/state.  You can see for yourself.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/811541/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-state/

 

https://everytownresearch.org/maps/mass-shootings-in-america/

 

https://wisevoter.com/state-rankings/mass-shootings-by-state/

 

I don't usually join in these threads in order to let every member have their say, but I can't let your statement go unchallenged.

 

Carolyn Marie

[MiraF]

5 hours ago, Marcie Jensen said:

Absolutely spot on! Genocide DOES equal killing people in the real world. History is full of examples including, but not limited to, the Trail of Tears, the entire 30 years war, the Crusades, the Jewish pogroms of Tsarist Russia, Stalin's purges, the more than 6 million who died in NAZI concentration camps, the actions of Pol Pot and most recently what the Serbs did to the Bosniacs (although they called it ethnic cleansing.) The point being that in actuality genocide always involves mass killings. It always will.

This doesn't support your argument. every time there is a mass killing of a specific group, it is genocide, but not every time there is genocide there are mass killings. The Native American reservations are a great example: the natives were given unfarmable land, they were forced to abandon their traditions, they were evicted from their homes, and they were forced to assimilate into western culture, and all this was with the explicit goal of destroying their culture and way of life.

 

"Genocide = the killing of a type of people" is false in the same way that "tall people = people", all tall people are people, but not all people are tall people. In the language of formal logic, mass killings -> genocide, but genocide -/> mass killings.

[MiraF]

6 hours ago, Ivy said:

Yes words are important.  But let's not forget that we are talking about a real situation, not a bunch of hypothetical ideas.

And in this very real situation, the republican party is trying to genocide trans people out of existence.

[Marcie Jensen]

5 hours ago, Carolyn Marie said:

 

That is simply untrue, @Marcie Jensen.  California is the only state that fits with your statement.  The definitions of "mass shootings" differ by the site or organization which collects the info, but the stats are consistent as far as numbers/state.  You can see for yourself.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/811541/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-state/

 

https://everytownresearch.org/maps/mass-shootings-in-america/

 

https://wisevoter.com/state-rankings/mass-shootings-by-state/

 

I don't usually join in these threads in order to let every member have their say, but I can't let your statement go unchallenged.

 

Carolyn Marie

This will be my last post in this thread as I don't want to say something I will later regret or be less than civil.

 

Thank you @Carolyn Marie. I stand corrected. I looked at the three sites you referenced, as well as about a dozen more from all over the spectrum. They ranged from the FBI to the Oregon legislature to the Office of Justice programs to the Washington Post and beyond. The cumulative data was utterly inconsistent and, as you point out, differs by definitions, the political leanings and/or vested interest of the site in question. The conclusion I drew from this is that while the numbers were fairly consistent, the data interpretation was not, and depended almost entirely on the politics of the organization doing the testing.  That makes it logically impossible to draw any conclusions about the role of gun free zones in mass shootings. My sincere apologies for making that particular statement.

 

However, that doesn't mean that mass shootings rise to the level of genocide as no specific group of people in the United Stares is being specifically targeted for violent extermination. The shooters fall across too many political and ethnic groups, as do the victims. Further, and it deeply hurts me to point this out, the numbers involved are simply too small in regard to the population as a whole to allow them to rise to the genocidal level. Could the intent of the shooters, their ultimate goal, be genocide? Perhaps, but we have no evidence to support this no matter what we may feel individually. It's a sad commentary on the current state of society and civilization that mass shootings are so common.

 

I realize that many will not agree with what I've posted and that's fine. Each of us is free to believe what we want, but when we ignore or dismiss different viewpoints, we do so at our peril.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

Mass shootings don't equate to genocide... because it isn't just one kind of people getting shot.  Shootings seem to affect folks of different ethnicities, genders, etc. so the effect is spread around.    I've noticed that a lot of the shootings happen in California and New York, places with more strict gun laws...so more gun laws won't solve the problem.  Criminals don't obey the law - shocking, I know.    Funny thing, in the rural area where I live, everybody is armed to the teeth.  But we don't have shootings here, which counters the idea that the the mere presence of firearms causes violence.

 

If we want to prevent violence, I think we have to reduce the overall stress level.  The constant legalism and political agitation is a big cause.  The "us vs. them" mentality causes street violence, family violence, and political violence which can ultimately lead to genocide. 

 

We won't find our answers in the state.  We've looked to the state for solutions for the last 40-50 years, and what has that brought us? 

 

 

[MiraF]

16 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

I've noticed that a lot of the shootings happen in California and New York, places with more strict gun laws...so more gun laws won't solve the problem.

False. There are higher rates of mass shootings in US states with more relaxed gun control laws:

https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/higher-rates-of-mass-shootings-in-us-states-with-more-relaxed-gun-control-laws/

If what you said is true, how come there are far fewer mass shootings in countries with robust gun control laws?

Myth: Gun violence happens everywhere. The NRA often points to incidents of gun violence abroad to argue gun laws are ineffective and such widespread gun violence is not unique to America. However, the evidence tells a different story.

Fact: While most countries experience occasional incidents of gun violence, the gun violence epidemic is a uniquely American experience. The United States has the highest level of gun violence across developed nations, with a gun homicide rate 26 times greater than that of peer nations.14 This number is even higher among young Americans, who experience a gun homicide rate 49 times greater than that of other developed nations.

Source:

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/debunking-myths-the-gun-lobby-perpetuates-following-mass-shootings/

 

PS:

10 hours ago, Marcie Jensen said:

One other interesting piece of trivia. Virtually all of these shootings take place in gun free zones. Ever wonder why that is?

Myth: Mass shooters are likely to target gun-free zones. Gun lobbyists often deploy this myth to deter legislative efforts to limit gun carrying in certain locations that are considered particularly sensitive or unsuitable for guns, such as schools, houses of worship, or government buildings. However, the overwhelming majority of fatal mass shootings in the United States occur in locations where guns are allowed or not explicitly banned, such as in private homes or public locations.

Fact: Most mass shootings occur in areas where guns are permitted. The gun lobby often claims that 98 percent of mass shootings occur in gun-free zones, but research has thoroughly debunked this. Of the 156 mass shootings that occurred from 2009 to 2016, only 10 percent occurred in gun-free zones. The majority of these shootings—63 percent—occurred in private homes.

Source:

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/debunking-myths-the-gun-lobby-perpetuates-following-mass-shootings/

[MiraF]

46 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

Funny thing, in the rural area where I live, everybody is armed to the teeth.  But we don't have shootings here

From an article about mass school shootings:

"

While seemingly random, experts say these shootings typically have one thing in common: they mostly happen in small, rural towns.

 

Back in 2018, the Associated Press reported that of the 10 deadliest school shootings in the U.S., all but one happened in towns with fewer than 75,000 residents. Most of them were in cities with less than 50,000 people. Uvalde's population fits these criteria, sitting at 15,860.

"

The reason people don't see shootings in their rural neiborhoods is that you are in small towns. LA accounts for 10% of the California population, and rural towns account for 6% of the population. If there is a mass shooting in LA, 10% of Californians get to say, "there was a mass shooting in my city", and if there is a mass shooting in a rural town, 0% of Californians get to say, "there was a mass shooting in my town", so even though there are more mass shootings per capita in rural areas, less people realize this is happening in places like theirs. Just because it hasn't happened in your town doesn't mean mass shootings happen less in towns like yours, in fact they happen more often.

 

Source of the quote:

https://bakersfieldnow.com/news/local/why-mass-school-shootings-continue-to-happen-in-small-towns

[Ivy]

I'm not sure this thread had much do do with gun control in the beginning.  

I don't know if there is much to be done anyway.  Let's face it, guns are already here.  Perhaps it would be better if that wasn't the case, but…

I think  mass shootings are a separate issue. 

 

The subject is more about using the powers of the government to persecute a minority.

[MaryEllen]

"In Video, Trump Vows To Target Doctors Treating Trans People If Re-Elected"

 

This is the topic. (above)  I fail to see where mass shootings and gun control have anything to do with it. Please get back on topic or I will lock it.

 

MaryEllen

Forum Director

[Vidanjali]

12 hours ago, MaryEllen said:

"In Video, Trump Vows To Target Doctors Treating Trans People If Re-Elected"

 

This is the topic. 

 

Note that one of the first victims of the Holocaust was trans-affirming physician Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld. 

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-forgotten-history-of-the-worlds-first-trans-clinic/

 

Also note that the Nazis were inspired by US Jim Crow laws & extermination of native peoples. 

 

https://www.history.com/news/how-the-nazis-were-inspired-by-jim-crow

 

There is nothing new under the sun. 

 

 

[Ivy]

2 hours ago, Katie23 said:

On some days I have hope and and on some days I do not.

I also see too many parallels to the 30's.  And I don't think pointing this out is overreacting.

Some days it feels like the whole world is closing in around us.  And for what?  How does me trying to live as the gender I feel a threat to civilization?

It's not like there aren't real problems.

[MiraF]

6 hours ago, Katie23 said:

I have been writing about this a lot over the last month. Trump thinks Adolf Hitler is someone to be admired. He has his followers. We fail to realize how history repeats itself. Will Trump and his minions stop at simply ending the lives of this unworthy of living, or will he have followers like the idiot in charge of the medical affairs committee in South Carolina who is advocating genetic testing at birth to decide the gender marker on a birth certificate. 

 

On some days I have hope and and on some days I do not. I was recently asked to give testimony in a state where they are considering legislation to bar treatment of transgender children. This movement is everywhere there are Republican-led state legislatures. Is the next step to find a supposed genetic test that reveals which child may be transgender at birth? If then, would these animals decide abortion was the proper thing to do? 

 

We have as much right to live our lives free of oppression as anybody else, yet, I am so sick of the crap heaped on us.  When will this country wake up? What happens if the next time there is a maniacal leader of a large country that wants to eradicate a group of people they deem as a threat to society, it turns out to be the United States? Scary huh? Of course, in some states the Reich is already preparing the way by eliminating any thought of history. Look at what DeSantis is doing to the schools in Florida. I wonder who will be deemed worthy enough to let live. Spookier thought: Imagine Marjorie Taylor Green as the vice führer to führer Trump. Enough dystopia for the day.

I think if anyone will take over the US as führer, it will be DeSantis. Trump is already being removed from his position as head of the republicans, with people like fox news and Breitbart saying DeSantis is the future of the party. Considering Trump's incompetence and Ron's actions so far, he may actually be worse.

 

Apart from that, I agree with you 100%.

[KathyLauren]

2 hours ago, Katie23 said:

I am not sure if anybody has thought about what triggered Trump's transphobic behavior.

I have.  $$$$!   He is not a deep thinker, and I doubt if he has given a moment's thought to the Miss Universe issue.  He simply does what he is paid to do by the highest bidder.  Apparently it is not considered bribery when it is in the form of campaign contributions, but it's close enough.

 

Remember in 2016 how he claimed he was the best friend of the LGBT community.  Someone clearly called him up and told him to back off on that or the money would dry up, because he never mentioned it again and has been a staunch foe ever since.

[Ivy]

3 hours ago, Katie23 said:

I am very disheartened by the current political landscape. I am not sure if there will be an epiphany of voters or not, but we are being served up across the nation. I read an article this morning, and the number of negative comments regarding transgender children was horrifying.

Me too on this.  The negative comments on most trans issues I see are frightening.  I think a lot of the "support" from the Democrats is more opposition to the right, than actual support for us.  We are at best a curiosity to most people, and down right demonic to others.

 

3 hours ago, Katie23 said:

I believe I will finish my transition, but I am more doubtful than I was when I started.

When I started this I didn't really expect much support other than personal from some people I knew.  So I'm not terribly disappointed on that end.  And that was part on my personal calculations in coming out.  In fact through the VA, it has been better than I expected.  

 

I realized that surgeries were probably out of reach.  But people have been trans like forever without them.

 

I guess "finishing" transition is different things for different people.  For my part I feel like I already have.  I am out in public, my name and gender marker (DL & SS) are changed to "F" and I live as a woman to the best of my ability.  Passing was never my goal anyway, and I accepted that it probably would never be completely possible, at least for me.

 

Yes of course, I am still a work in progress.  But I am 𝕴𝖛𝖞

[MiraF]

4 hours ago, KathyLauren said:

I have.  $$$$!

I actually think it's peer pressure, the main talking point of the republican party was trans people, and he was being left behind by more enthusiastic transphobes. He probably went to a campaign official, asked "What can I do to seem more relevant to the rest of the republican party?", and was told to make a transphobic rant about how nazi he is. when watching the video, it's pretty obvious he has no idea what half of the terms he used mean, he was just handed a speech and pushed in front of a camera.

[Ivy]

1 hour ago, MiraF said:

he has no idea what half of the terms he used mean

This is probably so, but he doesn't care anyway.

[Lelouch vi Ushiromiya]

I watched a video covering this horrible Trump video. Honestly, it kinda scared the hell out of me. A lot of the things he said were akin to Nazi propaganda. I sometimes wish I didn't live in the United States at times because of all this hateful anti trans rhetoric getting passed in almost 60 to 80% of the states. I've done my best to protest this -holy buckets- in my home state but now I'm thinking about getting the hell out.

 

I hate to think that way but...I'm tired of feeling like I have to walk on eggshells in my own backyard...not that I tell everybody I'm trans anyways...but I'd like to be able to have a little bit of peace to be myself...I'm trying to avoid the news somewhat and focus on what I have control on in my day to day environment to keep my mental health somewhat on track. It hasn't been easy...let me tell you what. 

[Ivy]

I am beginning to have similar thoughts.  Up till now, things have been more or less okay here.  But now I'm beginning to wonder.  It's too late for me to go back into the closet - even if I wanted to.