A trans girl from SA has apparently taken her own life, after a U.S. cybersecurity firm was hired…

[Ivy]

Mods: If this is inappropriate you can take it down.

 

A trans girl from SA (Saudi Arabia) has apparently taken her own life, after a U.S. cybersecurity firm was hired by her parents to abduct and forcibly detransition her.

https://twitter.com/ScattrBrainJane/status/1635017802875822080

 

This is a link to her suicide note that I won't paste here, but you can read if you are up to it.

https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1ss8nph

 

 

 

 

[Marcie Jensen]

Wow. Even after many years spent in the Middle East, including Saudi Arabia, and knowing something of Sharia law, actually witnessing another example of it in action leaves me cold inside. Sadly, this is typical of the attitude in most countries in the region. Keep in mind that in Saudi, women have very few rights and in many places honor killings, public beheadings, lopping off hands for minor offenses and stoning are all legal forms of punishment. Similarly, the attitude toward members of the LGBTQ+ community just as bad. I know that things aren't ideal here in the USA, but elsewhere things are much worse.

 

This is a terribly sad example, because the victim, Ellen, was a Saudi Citizen and here illegally, according to her own account. The fact that an American cyber security firm was suborned in this way is particularly disheartening. As was the deceit practiced by the parents and the individual identified as Bader. That this sort of thing can happen in 21st century America  is beyond the pale.

[VickySGV]

This is the stuff of the imaginations of U.S. conservatives as well.  They were let into the general population by the head warden 5 years ago and have not been returned to their proper isolation.   I am hoping the company hired to abduct her s found and its employees charged with aiding and abetting a felony on the parents part.

 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

5 hours ago, Katie23 said:

I would not put money on purely cybersecurity. I would think along the lines of a PMC group. Scary as hell that  US firm helped a foreign national do this.

 

Since the victim in this case was also a foreign national, I doubt it bothers most security/PMC groups.  It may not even violate US law.  Even if it does, a lot of these security organizations exist in a legal gray area and don't mind crossing the line if there's profit involved.  Saudi currency spends just as well as US currency, sometimes better. 

 

Sadly, the victim didn't realize the scope of the game until it was too late.  If you're vulnerable or naive, or up against someone powerful...life is incredibly dangerous.  

 

 

[Ivy]

A bit more…

 

https://erininthemorn.substack.com/p/her-name-was-eden?utm_source=substack&publication_id=994764&post_id=108295791&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&triggerShare=true&isFreemail=true

 

"Likewise, transgender people in our own borders should be protected from state governments that seek to do to trans people what Eden’s family did to her. Forced detransition is not something that only happens in countries less tolerant of transgender people. States like South Dakota have passed laws making this mandatory and specifically telling doctors how to do it."

[Marcie Jensen]

Thank you, @Ivy for sharing this latest piece of information. The most important piece. based on what I know of Saudi Arabia, is that if the report is true (and there is no reason to doubt it) Eden's father was a wealthy Saudi with "close ties to the Saudi government," it likely means that her father is a minor member of the house of Sa'ud--the royal family. If that is so, no administration, either Democrat or Republican will do anything about this heinous crime so long as our country is dependent on Saudi oil. I don't mean to be offensive with this post. I just don't know any other way to put. 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

It goes beyond oil. The Saudi government buys a lot of military hardware from US companies, and allows US military cooperation in the area. As long as the military industrial complex pretty much runs this country, Saudi royalty can basically do what they want.  They have personally committed crimes in the USA and avoided prosecution.

[Davie]

9 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

It may not even violate US law. 

The USA does have a law against it. It's called kidnapping.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

4 hours ago, Davie said:

The USA does have a law against it. It's called kidnapping.

 

But does that apply to a foreign national who is not in the USA legally? Does that apply to a foreign national being returned to the nation where they are a citizen?  That kind of muddies the waters.

 

If the victim had a visa or was a legal permanent resident, there would be a lot more protections available, as well as greater willingness to investigate after the fact.  Sadly, I have noticed that when victims lack documents, crimes tend to go unaddressed.

[Marcie Jensen]

The question about kidnapping has a simple answer--yes, the law applies to everyone in the USA regardless of their legal status. It applies to persons who are being deported, extradited or ejected as persona non grata. The person or persons who are doing the kidnapping are criminals under US law. Period.

[Ivy]

 

[Marcie Jensen]

Fahad Alshathri is in a position that only goes to members of the House of Sa'ud; the Saudi royal family. This explains a lot.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

3 hours ago, Marcie Jensen said:

Fahad Alshathri is in a position that only goes to members of the House of Sa'ud; the Saudi royal family. This explains a lot.

 

While the letter of the law may be on Eden's side...who is going to go up against the Saudi royal family / government?  Unfortunately, it doesn't look good for justice. Is there an honest prosecutor who could take this on...and withstand the unsavory types that will target them if they do?

 

In my own family, there's a history of government non-help.  One of my partners is the sole survivor of a cartel attack.  Because her family was undocumented, it was like nobody cared.  It actually took a private militia to help her survive.  It breaks my heart what happens to the people society wants to forget.  

[MiraF]

Countries like Canada need to treat every transgender person entering the country from a place with less protections (and this includes the US and UK) like a refugee and never, under any circumstances, indicate that they'll be deported to their country of origin. The main reason immigrants have more crimes committed against them is that they can't go to the police without being deported (this is mentioned in the note).

 

Honestly, people like this (Michael Pocalyko, Ellen, Bader the Saudi lawyer, her parents, etc.) should be dealt with "vigilante style". That's the only way they'll ever face the consequences of their actions, they're probably going to get away scot-free due their connections with the Saudi royals. Remember, if someone tortures you mentally to the point that you commit suicide, they're bad enough that you should probably take them with you. Transgender people in countries without proper protections (including the US) need to get guns and learn how to use them.

 

To be clear: I'm not calling for violence, only for retaliatory self-defense. If someone tortures you until you kill yourself, they're killing you, and if someone kills you, you should be allowed to make sure they don't survive either.

[KathyLauren]

3 hours ago, MiraF said:

Countries like Canada need to treat every transgender person entering the country from a place with less protections (and this includes the US and UK) like a refugee and never, under any circumstances, indicate that they'll be deported to their country of origin.

 

There is in fact a petition circulating asking the federal government to do just that.  The news article describes the existing protections and what the petition is asking for. 

Groups call on Canada to make it easier for transgender Americans seeking asylum

[KathyLauren]

3 minutes ago, KathyLauren said:

There is in fact a petition circulating asking the federal government to do just that. 

Here is the petition:

Petition to the House of Commons: e-4268 (Citizenship and immigration)

[Marcie Jensen]

Having just read the petition that @KathyLauren provided the link for, I've gotta say it sets a common sense standard that all civilized countries should adopt. It's another reason for all of in the USA to be especially proud of our neighbors to the north. 

 

On another note, when I picture vigilante justice, the Old West comes to mind. I always see a group of masked cowboys at night, with torches and a rope hanging someone who may or may not be guilty. It's a dangerous precedent regardless of the guilt of the victim, or the nature of the crime. I believe it's a descent into chaos and anarchy; or perhaps better said as mob rule. The old saw about how violence perpetuates violence has been demonstrated as true far too often in history, and, again my opinion only, vigilantism is violence gone public.  

 

While it's awful, sad, disgusting, maddening, enraging, frightening--words fail me at this stage--what happened to Eden, and it's far to likely that the perpetrators will never see justice, and I don't see a solution. vigilante justice is not the answer. It puts us on their level.

[Davie]

There is a lot of good-sense commentary here, on this topic. Thanks all.

Why can't this country, the USA, step up with that . . . and things like this:

Darlington Tory candidate banned after transphobic remarks

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tees-64956144

[Marcie Jensen]

While the candidate's remarks were clearly offensive, the first amendment of the US constitution permits this sort of speech from everyone. We don't have to like it, we don't have to agree with it, but we do have to accept it. Unlike the UK, which has no written constitution, I'm sadly forced to admit that freedom of speech pretty much guarantees we will be offended at some point in our lives. 

[Ivy]

Here's a bit more on Eden,

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_5rYApA5p_Ty0oqhyMCUywkNqNegscPNeodcgukcVDQ/edit#heading=h.g076i0vcxldr

[Davie]

Nothing says the party of "free speech" like banning speech in classrooms, outlawing abortions, and criminalizing gender affirming health care.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

I won't get off into the weeds with the freedom of speech stuff.  Y'all already know where I stand.  

 

I looked at the stuff @Ivy linked to, and that's an interesting (and growing) summary of the case.  It makes me wonder - who's putting these documents together?  Are they preparing some kind of presentation for a prosecutor?  I mean, why put it on the net just for people to look at and be sad/outraged about?  Is there a way for somebody to take this information and actually make a move to mess things up for the people who did this? 

[MiraF]

6 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

why put it on the net just for people to look at and be sad/outraged about?

If there is enough outrage, more protections will be put in place to stop this from happening again.

Also, this is big enough that moderates that were undecided on trans rights might side with us.

More outrage and publicity means more sympathy towards us.

[Ivy]

There have been trans-activists digging into it.  And they are showing their documentation.  

I think it is good that this has been brought out and not simply covered up as I suspect they hoped it would be.