USA Today: 'Vatican says NO to sex changes and gender theory in new document'

[EasyE]

So this greets me in my inbox this morning. Sigh.

 

Vatican says 'no' to sex changes and gender theory in new document (msn.com)

 

This certainly doesn't help my inner turmoil over all of this...

[Charlize]

On gender theory, the declaration said that “desiring a personal self-determination, as gender theory prescribes, apart from this fundamental truth that human life is a gift, amounts to a concession to the age-old temptation to make oneself God, entering into competition with the true God of love revealed to us in the Gospel."

 

I certainly believe that life is a gift, however i can in no way believe that being who i am is in any way making myself god.  i can believe that ,in declarations such as this,  the vatican is making itself into a god. 

I feel for trans folks who, as children of a higher power, must face this condemnation which attempts to remove them from the love of god as revealed in the gospel.

 

Hugs,

 

Charlize

[Timi]

I believe that Transgender people are trans gifted. I wish that the Church could acknowledge that our being, including our transness, is the Gift from God. I don't think the senseless gender roles and rules that people are expected to follow are the gift from God. 

 

I would sure like to be able to say to the Church, "Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye?"

 

-Tim

[Abigail Genevieve]

I will refrain from commenting on the document for three reasons.  One, I have not read it.  Secondly, as a Protestant my comments might be viewed as judgmental and divisive.  Thirdly, I don't know how this will be implemented at the local level.

 

I will say that I recognize that this document could be quite a struggle to deal with for some of our members. I would rather you were spared that, but here it is.

[VickySGV]

1 hour ago, Charlize said:

the vatican is making itself into a god

 

Not just the Vatican and its belief prisoners I am afraid,  Mankind as a whole has been creating gods in the images of the men who propound that particular god for any and all matters of manipulation of other people.  One thing I have learned in recovery has been that a god in my image would be a disaster to all people. 

[Ashley0616]

I'm glad I'm not Catholic. I feel sorry for those who are. The Catholics add a lot of stuff. 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

In my opinion (worth what y'all paid for it ) life was a gift...in the beginning.  But I don't believe that God specifically, individually, gives physical life to each of us.  It is a biological process that He started, but that we have some agency in it.  Otherwise, it wouldn't make much sense for a God who has all knowledge (including foreknowledge) to give life in situations where it would be aborted.  God gives the soul and the mind, and it is unclear at what point those are within our bodies and at what point they are not.  But one of the aspects of being transgender is the feeling that the body we have doesn't match the soul/mind that we have. 

 

There's no clear answer, and I believe that since Scripture talks about body, mind, and soul/spirit as separate things, it is perfectly possible in a fallen and messed up world for those aspects of ourselves not to match. 

 

As for this particular document from the Vatican, it seems like a reaction to something.  The Vatican is, after all, a political body of sorts.  They aren't just spiritual leaders but also a type of temporal government...so they'll have the same issues a government will have.  Perhaps remembering that will ease some of the rough feelings of the moment.

[EasyE]

I am happily Catholic, so I will not disparage the Church. There is so much that is beautiful within the heart of the church despite it being full of sinners (even at the very top - Peter, the first pope, certainly had his very visible missteps, which Scripture doesn't even try to hide)...

 

I hope dialogue can continue because all of this is still very new in the grand scheme of things... it took the church hundreds of years to sort through various topics (like what actually constituted Scripture - that wasn't decided until the 300s AD), so if cooler heads can prevail while the church sorts through this ... 

 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

25 minutes ago, EasyE said:

I am happily Catholic, so I will not disparage the Church. There is so much that is beautiful within the heart of the church despite it being full of sinners (even at the very top - Peter, the first pope, certainly had his very visible missteps, which Scripture doesn't even try to hide)...

 

No need to disparage it (certainly not what I was meaning to do.)  I do have a question - do you adhere to the idea of Papal infallibility?  If so, that presents a bit of an issue for you.  But that idea was codified fairly recently, during the time of Pius IX in the 1800s.  I bring it up because I think it is relevant.  If the Pope (and the Vatican in general) is infallible, to be a good Catholic you'd need to adhere to what they say without differing.  If you don't believe in their infallibility, then they can make mistakes just like you mention Peter doing....human beings, doing the best they can with some guidance from God.

 

The second example gives you a bit more freedom.  If the Papacy can potentially make a mistake, then perhaps you can still be a good Catholic without being 100% in agreement with the Vatican... meaning, there's a place for a bit of individual interpretation of the standards of living.  Just something to think about, and of course the decisions are all yours. 

[EasyE]

8 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

 I do have a question - do you adhere to the idea of Papal infallibility? 

Definitely wasn't implying anyone here is disparaging the Church. Just making sure folks know that I am not trying to do that...

 

The idea of Papal infallibility is often misunderstood, especially by non-Catholics. It is NOT the idea that the Pope is perfect in everything (impeccable). Pope Francis has said that he is sinner and that he goes to confession often. As mentioned above, Peter the first pope blew it multiple times and Scripture makes no effort to disguise that.

 

It is more the belief that Jesus will guard his Church from error with regards to issues of faith and morals as he promised ("He who hears you hears me," he said to his disciples and "I will be with you, even to end of the age" and "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth")

 

The Catechism defines it this way in article 891: "The Roman pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful -- who confirms his brethren into the faith -- he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals."

 

Let's see if I can help a little more: Jesus asks Peter, "Who do you say that I am?" and Peter responds, "You are the Christ, the son of the living God." That was an infallible pronouncement, one that Jesus says came from God, revealed directly to Peter. But then a few verses after that in Scripture we see Jesus rebuking Peter ("get behind me Satan"). Peter was not acting infallibly in that moment for sure. The books of 1 Peter and 2 Peter are infallible documents, but Peter was a hypocrite at times because he refused to eat with Gentiles (and Paul opposed him for this). 

 

This is why I am thankful for the Catholic church because we can know exactly what the disciples taught us because it has been passed down directly from Jesus to the apostles and then to their successors (bishops) and the next set of successors (more bishops and other popes), etc. We can go all the way back to the beginning and test our beliefs against those of Jesus' closest followers. The Church has guarded the faith well.

 

By the same token, the early Church didn't define everything in clear detail right from the beginning. But over time, you see the Church working things out (for lack of a better phrase) and making definitive pronouncements, especially as key areas of doctrine and morals came under challenge or misunderstanding. 

 

For example, there was debate from the start, even among bishops, on who Jesus is exactly. It was finally and firmly pronounced in a series of councils in the 200s, 300s and 400s that Jesus is fully human AND fully divine. By the same token it took the Church until the late 300s/early 400s to define definitely what constitutes Scripture. Until that point, there were multiple lists of what were considered sacred writings (it's a fascinating process - this interweaving of the human and the divine). 

 

A non-Catholic would say this process is so ripe for error. And they are right! Which is why we lean hard on the promises of Jesus mentioned above not to leave his Church and to guide it into all truth... 

 

I think we are at the age where the Church is starting to "work out" more definitively what is meant by gender and by the idea that God made us male and female (and all its practical implications). This is the first age where this has really been a universal issue... This document is part of that working out. I am bound to listen to the Church and heed the Church, but I also know what I know about myself (and others like all of you), and hence the confusion within... Hope this rambling makes some sort of sense... 

 

A few links may help on the subject of infallibility:

https://www.catholic.com/video/when-is-the-pope-infallible

https://www.catholic.com/tract/papal-infallibility

[Abigail Genevieve]

28 minutes ago, EasyE said:

....

You put that well, which means that is how I understand things :). 

 

There is a lot of beauty and thought in the Catholic Church and we should work towards unity.  That, however, does not entail a loss of integrity for those on other sides.  The problem here is that my boys will insist that you throw out the pope, your boys will insist that Protestants accept the pope as the head of the church.  Kind of hard to work that out.   But slinging mud does not help.  

 

Hang in there.   God has a plan.

[MaeBe]

On 4/8/2024 at 8:52 AM, Charlize said:

“desiring a personal self-determination, as gender theory prescribes, apart from this fundamental truth that human life is a gift, amounts to a concession to the age-old temptation to make oneself God, entering into competition with the true God of love revealed to us in the Gospel."

The Catholic Church jumping to conclusions over and over again.

 

I don't have any plans for GCS, but that doesn't mean I have discounted it. Just because this is about surgery doesn't mean that it doesn't have trickle-down effects, even simple reinforcement ones. This being news will make people, like my father, likely far more touchy about the subject of my gender journey. As I am not a part of the church, this may make him push even harder to "bring me back into the fold", or go harder on his passive/aggressive mocking. Much like the random guy who passed me, who did a double take, turned around, and addressed me (also the completely het/cis male friend of mine I was there with) directly with a request to join his Bible study. My friend was like, "what was that about?" I gestured to myself and said, "He probably thinks I need Jesus."

[Abigail Genevieve]

3 minutes ago, MaeBe said:

" I gestured to myself and said, "He probably thinks I need Jesus."

We all need Jesus.  I am walking through this with Him.

 

Those who think you answer an altar call and BOOM these things go away are simplifying the situation a bit much, doncha know?

[MaeBe]

41 minutes ago, EasyE said:

I think we are at the age where the Church is starting to "work out" more definitively what is meant by gender and by the idea that God made us male and female (and all its practical implications). This is the first age where this has really been a universal issue... This document is part of that working out.

Let's be honest. They aren't working anything out. They've finally just come around to start making judgements because the Church is managing the internal struggle of conservatives vs the more liberal Pope. Politics.

 

Francis has been on the verge of schism at least once with Benedict's adherents post abdication and probably more times than we know.

 

I have zero faith that the Catholic Church will ever accept trans people outside the auspices of "you're welcome as long as you don't do any trans things", so back to the closet all ye Catholic trans boys and girls lest ye suffer at the hands of your religion!

[Abigail Genevieve]

29 minutes ago, Abby Gen said:

We all need Jesus.  I am walking through this with Him.

 

Those who think you answer an altar call and BOOM these things go away are simplifying the situation a bit much, doncha know?

I think Gandhi said something about Christ being very attractive but His followers were the ones he had trouble with.

[KatieSC]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I have grown weary of all of these various groups such as the conservative PACS, R national committee, wannabe politicians from NC, and now the Vatican all weighing in about a topic they have no understanding of. What is lost is that we are not just waking up one day and saying "Golly gee whiz, I think I will change my sex today."

 

They cannot fathom that we were born this way. They take no time to consider that we are human beings. They want to condemn us. I believe some of them would be content to put us in a concentrate camp, or just have us exterminated. If they are going that route, at least provide us with an expected date so we can get our affairs in order.

 

More than one of the wannabe politicians has characterized us as less than vermin. I am just sick of it. The Vatican has no specialized medical education that I am aware of. Yeah, they are entitled to their opinion I guess, but all they have done is judge us unfairly, and it is the worst example of imposing their interpretation of Christian religion on us. There is more that I could say, but I do not want to violate TOS and be banned. 

 

 

[Abigail Genevieve]

3 minutes ago, KatieSC said:

I don't know a.... not want to violate TOS and be banned. 

 

 

I have similar feelings but I think the most pragmatic thing to be done is to reach out with something a little kinder than a punch in the nose.  I am not sure how.  Some people may be able to be reasoned with.  We cannot assume they cannot be reasoned with, because then nothing changes. 

[Ivy]

45 minutes ago, KatieSC said:

I have grown weary of all of these various groups such as the conservative PACS, R national committee, wannabe politicians from NC, and now the Vatican all weighing in about a topic they have no understanding of.

Exactly.  Most of the "experts" are not, and have never been trans.  And yet those of us who are, are expected to see them as authorities.

48 minutes ago, KatieSC said:

More than one of the wannabe politicians has characterized us as less than vermin.

And one in NC is a candidate for governor.  And he is a preacher!

And yet people don't understand why some of us have a problem with the church and their "Love."

 

Yes, I know "not every christian" and all that.  And I do know many christians that are nice decent people that I trust.

 

Speaking only for myself, it was only when I left, that I was finally free to explore who I was.  I no longer need a pope or some other "man of god" to validate my existence.  If god made me, she made me who I am.

 

I don't consider myself an atheist, but I don't pay much attention to people that insist on telling me that I'm going to fry in hell forever because I don't think the same as them.  And there are a lot of them around here.

 

I do have some respect for Francis.  My understanding is that he is for the little people of this world - kinda like Jesus was.

 

Blessings on everybody here.

[Abigail Genevieve]

There is a video by John MacArthur, highly esteemed by many, in which he goes after transgender people something fierce and demonstrates a certain lack of knowledge of the subject.  Disappointing. I know some people who really like him, and probably would follow him on this if they were confronted with a real live transgender person "in rebellion against God and destined for the flames of hell" or something.

[EasyE]

3 hours ago, Abby Gen said:

We all need Jesus.  I am walking through this with Him.

 

Those who think you answer an altar call and BOOM these things go away are simplifying the situation a bit much, doncha know?

This! 

[EasyE]

3 hours ago, MaeBe said:

I have zero faith that the Catholic Church will ever accept trans people outside the auspices of "you're welcome as long as you don't do any trans things", so back to the closet all ye Catholic trans boys and girls lest ye suffer at the hands of your religion!

I am a bit more optimistic but it is going to take time and patience ... remember, we're still in the early stages of dealing with this on a widespread scale ... (just like I am personally - I think and say things today that would have offended me a few years ago ;-)  )

[MaeBe]

3 hours ago, EasyE said:

I am a bit more optimistic but it is going to take time and patience ...

Women still hold no authority in the Church and are very much looked at in ancient terms generally. While not exactly the same as transgender people, they at least tolerate women, once the Church has a stance on something the patience required for it to change can be measured geologic terms.

[emeraldmountain2]

The Golden Rule. Something leaders in all faiths all too often fail to remember.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

@EasyE  Interesting links about the infallibility aspect.  So, a relevant follow-up question would be, what the Catholic church or the pope have recently said about gender-affirming surgical procedures - is that a "definitive teaching" or something else? 

 

I'm sure you've seen in this topic and others how quickly things slide from religion into politics, and even sentiments against Christianity in general.  I hope that doesn't affect your desire and determination to live authentically with your faith.  Personally, I believe that one CAN be an authentic Believer and even a member of a faith body that might not share our views of the transgender experience...its just a bit tough sometimes, as you've been feeling. 

 

4 hours ago, MaeBe said:

Women still hold no authority in the Church and are very much looked at in ancient terms generally. While not exactly the same as transgender people, they at least tolerate women, once the Church has a stance on something the patience required for it to change can be measured geologic terms.

 

Underneath this, I think what you're sensing is an essential difference between some faith groups and others.  Some believe that faith should "catch up with the times."  Others don't.  I'm sure you've noticed that I'm part of a faith group that sees Scripture in a very literal way.  Perhaps more literal than many, and certainly patriarchal.  Perhaps that seems ancient to some.  But to me and to many others (including a lot of Catholics), we don't seek to change the faith, we change ourselves (as far as we can) to fit within the faith we chose. 

 

Even within a faith community, there are differences.  Not everybody's beliefs are exactly identical to those of the leadership.  There's variation in my own home, for example.  My GF fulfills the wife role pretty well, but she's smart and independent and almost feral.  Another of my partners is extremely traditional... she literally addresses our husband as "My lord" because Sarah addresses Abraham that way in the Book of Genesis, so she believes that's the proper way a wife acts.  She wouldn't consider arguing with our husband or insisting on her own way, but GF has no issues being stubborn.

 

I mention that only as an illustration of the differences that can exist within a single, small community.  Expand that to a worldwide church body, and you see the same thing.  Even with a pronouncement such as this recent one from the Vatican, I think there are ways for LGBTQ+ folks to exist even in very conservative faith groups.  I think it can be done in accordance with Scripture, and even in accordance with some or most of the rules espoused by various faith communities, including the Catholic church. 

[Ivy]

10 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

sentiments against Christianity in general.

I'm not against christianity per se.  I lived most of my life as a christian.  My interpretation of the Bible is still pretty "conservative".  I personally had to drop it to be able to live honestly as myself.  Christianity kept me from being free enough to actually see myself as who I am.

I don't consider myself an atheist even now.  But I think the bible was written by men, probably for their own purposes.  The pope is just a guy.

That's just my opinion of course.  I don't mean to offend anyone here.