Mormon Culture And My Mind Set...

[Guest (Lightsider)]

I am no expert on the subject however I have been a member 31 years. So consider the source.

The culture of the church is one where members find their own testimony and come to a "Knowing" the church is true. It is a spiritual witness. They often baptize children at age 8. Sometimes these kids are pressured into joining...I was baptized at age 10 myself. So I have been a member virtually all my life.

Being trans all my life... has made it all that much harder on me. I held onto the church with this false idea it would cure me. noope. Not a chance. I went through a serious of religious awakenings that my GID was a tool of satan. So i fought it with my entire being. 3 marriage...and a swath of destruction. Ironically it my first two wives never had an idea I was trans. I hid it that well. However...the 3rd knew and felt through faith I could be "Cured".

So we married. But once again as repeated through my marriages before I found I was not physically attracted to her, sleeping on the couch was a treat. We are still friends however...she can not accept that I am spiritually female. She believes that when the next life comes I will be male and that all will be ok. I consider her my best friend and yes we are divorced.

Any way...the Mormon people are a people of great faith and sometimes that is the weak link for Mormon trans like myself who fall into this idea that being trans is some how a sin...or a cross that we must fight to the end.

When I finally made peace with my GID and started the meds...and I realized some thing profound to me. That being you is not the sin...in fact it has strengthened my testimony in the church. I keep the covenants I made long ago even better now than ever before because I am more in tune with my identity.

...and I learned that one does not need to be a member of the church to keep these promises. It is better to be one step closer to heaven than a member one step closer to hell.

Another cultural thing is the church believes we are either male or female spirits. nothing in between. God does not make mistakes....yada yada...you all have heard the God Does not make mistakes till you want to puke.

nope..God does not make mistakes...but nature does not...man does which many Mormon and christian alike tend to disregard... I can not believe a loving God would want his children to suffer in pain with an obvious birth defect that has afflicted so many. In my case....my mother took DES. This is a known mutagen. Was it gods mistake? no. But some one in the pharmaceutical industry let greed get the better of them and altered my life forever. There are so many things we don't know about....endocrine disruptors are all over our environment.

I think the only sin that is present in regard to this is to not be true to your core identity. To no be true to that core often leads to bitterness and anger and hate. I don't think God would welcome a bitter angry person into is presence.

Often times an LDS/Trans person will go through this cycle much like purging of clothes...become super religious and shun the GID...and back and forth it goes...the person never finds true peace in a cycle like that. And that can come out on the boards (and I am not referencing interalia here...) as if the person knows the church is true and that gid is a sin. Or is some how superior to others because he or she is fighting to contain GID and is some how winning...i know because shortly after my detransition 10 years ago I did just that. It is often offensive to others and it is no wonder why others are cautious of mormon trans.

I now have my religion and my identity in a healthy balance. Where it belongs.

Any way..in short...it is more the culture of the church that is making things progress slowly for us rather than the doctrines.

If you are an LDS/trans reading this...you are not alone.

Lightsider

[Guest (Lightsider)]

I am no expert on the subject however I have been a member 31 years. So consider the source.

The culture of the church is one where members find their own testimony and come to a "Knowing" the church is true. It is a spiritual witness. They often baptize children at age 8. Sometimes these kids are pressured into joining...I was baptized at age 10 myself. So I have been a member virtually all my life.

Being trans all my life... has made it all that much harder on me. I held onto the church with this false idea it would cure me. noope. Not a chance. I went through a serious of religious awakenings that my GID was a tool of satan. So i fought it with my entire being. 3 marriage...and a swath of destruction. Ironically it my first two wives never had an idea I was trans. I hid it that well. However...the 3rd knew and felt through faith I could be "Cured".

So we married. But once again as repeated through my marriages before I found I was not physically attracted to her, sleeping on the couch was a treat. We are still friends however...she can not accept that I am spiritually female. She believes that when the next life comes I will be male and that all will be ok. I consider her my best friend and yes we are divorced.

Any way...the Mormon people are a people of great faith and sometimes that is the weak link for Mormon trans like myself who fall into this idea that being trans is some how a sin...or a cross that we must fight to the end.

When I finally made peace with my GID and started the meds...and I realized some thing profound to me. That being you is not the sin...in fact it has strengthened my testimony in the church. I keep the covenants I made long ago even better now than ever before because I am more in tune with my identity.

...and I learned that one does not need to be a member of the church to keep these promises. It is better to be one step closer to heaven than a member one step closer to hell.

Another cultural thing is the church believes we are either male or female spirits. nothing in between. God does not make mistakes....yada yada...you all have heard the God Does not make mistakes till you want to puke.

nope..God does not make mistakes...but nature does not...man does which many Mormon and christian alike tend to disregard... I can not believe a loving God would want his children to suffer in pain with an obvious birth defect that has afflicted so many. In my case....my mother took DES. This is a known mutagen. Was it gods mistake? no. But some one in the pharmaceutical industry let greed get the better of them and altered my life forever. There are so many things we don't know about....endocrine disruptors are all over our environment.

I think the only sin that is present in regard to this is to not be true to your core identity. To no be true to that core often leads to bitterness and anger and hate. I don't think God would welcome a bitter angry person into is presence.

Often times an LDS/Trans person will go through this cycle much like purging of clothes...become super religious and shun the GID...and back and forth it goes...the person never finds true peace in a cycle like that. And that can come out on the boards (and I am not referencing interalia here...) as if the person knows the church is true and that gid is a sin. Or is some how superior to others because he or she is fighting to contain GID and is some how winning...i know because shortly after my detransition 10 years ago I did just that. It is often offensive to others and it is no wonder why others are cautious of mormon trans.

I now have my religion and my identity in a healthy balance. Where it belongs.

Any way..in short...it is more the culture of the church that is making things progress slowly for us rather than the doctrines.

If you are an LDS/trans reading this...you are not alone.

Lightsider

"nope..God does not make mistakes...but nature does not...man" the "not" in the above post is a typo. was supposed to read:

nope..God does not make mistakes...but nature does...

Just did not want to be mistaken in that.

[Guest]

I now have my religion and my identity in a healthy balance. Where it belongs.

Any way..in short...it is more the culture of the church that is making things progress slowly for us rather than the doctrines.

If you are an LDS/trans reading this...you are not alone.

Some of the most heartbreaking letters I receive are from people who feel seperated from their faith and their church. They expected acceptance and love but were disappointed. Often this is a cause for suicidal crisis's here. Church members have no idea how much transgender people suffer or how much their rejection hurts. Some will change to an LGBT friendly church but that's not for everyone. Some like you manage to reconcile their beliefs and I admire that you have done so. As you pointed out that can often take years. Thank you for supporting other LDS transgender people and letting them know that they are not alone. Hopefully your success will inspire others.

Laura

[Guest (Lightsider)]

I can imagine letters you have gotten. My mind set is that if a person is going to commit suicide over a religion...wow GET OUT NOW. Nothing is worth taking your own life. NOTHING! I just hope that as LDS trans read my story...they can avoid my mistakes and get a nice start on life at a younger age. That is my mission.

Leaving behind a swath of broken hearts on a path to finding who you are is not fun.

I think many in religious institutions believe that this is a mental illness...when in fact the condition and pressures we endure causes mental issues and when mind and body align things come into focus. Humans always fear what they don't understand....it is sad really.

And yes it takes years to get where I am... In a way...those who are trans are some what better off with out the burden of trying to align religion with being trans.

Any way...I am here to help. Laura you have done the work of angels here. I hope you never give up this mission.

Lightsider

[Guest gentleman1]

Lightsider,

Being relatively new to these threads, I hope you don't mind if I ask you this, but are you still in detransition? Or did you retransition back?

As to the Mormon culture, I'm ignorant of it, I'll state that up front. But I imagine some similarities perhaps within the Pentecostal faith in which I was reared, and then in the Catholic church of which I am a convert.

One thing came to my mind as I have read yours and Interalia's posts here. Joseph Smith could NEVER have imagined these topics being discussed now could he? He was not a doctor and could not have known about people who are born intersexed or transexual. Does that make his message any less relevant particularily concerning that there are only males and females? I don't think so. Afterall, "men" and "women" do enjoy a solid majority on this earth. I just wish that the leaders of your church (and mine), would realize that the message loses absolutely nothing by including us! These people were spiritually inspired, not medically!.........that's how I see it.

What do you think? - Shawn

[Guest (Lightsider)]

Lightsider,

Being relatively new to these threads, I hope you don't mind if I ask you this, but are you still in detransition? Or did you retransition back?

As to the Mormon culture, I'm ignorant of it, I'll state that up front. But I imagine some similarities perhaps within the Pentecostal faith in which I was reared, and then in the Catholic church of which I am a convert.

One thing came to my mind as I have read yours and Interalia's posts here. Joseph Smith could NEVER have imagined these topics being discussed now could he? He was not a doctor and could not have known about people who are born intersexed or transexual. Does that make his message any less relevant particularily concerning that there are only males and females? I don't think so. Afterall, "men" and "women" do enjoy a solid majority on this earth. I just wish that the leaders of your church (and mine), would realize that the message loses absolutely nothing by including us! These people were spiritually inspired, not medically!.........that's how I see it.

What do you think? - Shawn

To answer your question I am fully transitioned. My Birth certificate is being changed in california to female and a judge recently declared me legally female in my state where I currently reside. 8 years of further pain from a de-transition and marriage did nothing to cure me.

When i finally made peace I was surprised....that my church was accepting. As far as Joseph Smith Goes...he created a church was a living breathing entity with continued revelation and further knowledge. I believe people like me are on the cusp of further knowledge for the church. It is not my role to tell them how they treat us is wrong. I live the best i can and hope my example is enough.

20 years ago the church would excommunicate a gay person as soon as they found out...or try and pressure them into a hetro marriage. The sad thing is that effort created a ton of pain as spouses who were not not gay were left divorced. That trend has changed. 5 years ago i probably would have been exed. But that has changed as well...excommunication for SRS is no longer mandatory.

Even though Trans existed throughout the ages...I believe we have an explosion in our time because of out of control medications...poisons and other things like cigarette smoking that can alter a babies development. These are modern problems that Joseph was not aware of because back in his day it was not really heard of and a problem and back then there was very little that could be done to medically correct the situation. Granted he did nail smoking on the head. LOL there is a drug on the market now that is for men. it's label says...Women who are pregnant or who can become pregnant should not handle the drug due to a specific birth defect.

I believe my church is slowly picking up on this matter as a medical one and not some perversion. Sadly there have been some who have lashed out in anger towards the church making matters worse. People close up when attacked. There was one situation I know of where some one stood up in sacrement meetting and Gender "F*cked* the ward and did not present a normal healthy image of us. Some of are our worst enemies....showing up on jerry Springer...Grr. Does not paint a very good public image of us.

Time to tear down the stereotypes and be us....be true.

[Guest interalia]

Thank you for such an excellent post, Lightsider.

I too have struggled with the idea of the church curing me. In my experience, it just doesn't happen that way. My darkest, most depressed time, was when I was waiting for the church to save me from my GID or miraculously provide an answer to fix it all.

My mission since having de-transitioned has been to be as open as possible about my GID (I don't where a sign, but where appropriate I talk about it) and to never ever go back to that dark place before transition when I was hiding and fighting who I was, to never again become a person who isn't real just to appease others, and to educate people (specifically in the church) to transgendered issues.

I hate the culture of the church at times. It drives me batty. The gender dimorphism can be grueling especially for one who doesn't fit within their predefined gender role. Most of the members I know that have been the most depressed are those who don't fit the ideal example of a "Molly Mormon" or a "Peter Priesthood" and the crushing cultural influence that attempts to get them to conform to those models. The happiest members of the church in contrast are those who go to church for what it is: the doctrine, and not for the social games, for whom cultural influences matter very little.

I would have to say the culture of the church is my biggest struggle with being a member (even if I believe the doctrines). I have taught now in church for 7+ years, and whenever I start to hear church culture being taught or expressed as doctrine, I'm known to nip that in the bud REAL quick. Because of that I became respected as a teacher working to overcome pseudo-doctrine in the church.

Living in the south, it is like an ignorant cultural double whammy. Most of the members here are still influenced by the Bible Belt, southern values, type roots especially as it relates to gender role. I try to stand as a shining example of what it means to be a male who doesn't fit in his gender role that other members can respect. I think that is my greatest calling, to educate people that women and men are not so different. Were I to try to do the same in a transitioned state, many would too easily write me off, but being a male and a respected member and still showing that men don't have to be x, y, z has really helped enlighten minds - regardless if they knew I was trans or not.

In the end, culture, not doctrine, provides most of the problems for members of the church. Sometimes the leaders let culture dictate their edicts - something I believe God will hold them accountable for - especially if it brings about pain. I hope to promote more acceptance of individuals with unique challenges in this life and to not immediately write them off as sinners. But the only way to do this is to fight the culture, show its flaws, and enlighten minds one at a time without doing it in such a visceral way (as is often attempted by non-members) as to alienate the church member who need educating.

[Guest (Lightsider)]

Thank you for such an excellent post, Lightsider.

I too have struggled with the idea of the church curing me. In my experience, it just doesn't happen that way. My darkest, most depressed time, was when I was waiting for the church to save me from my GID or miraculously provide an answer to fix it all.

My mission since having de-transitioned has been to be as open as possible about my GID (I don't where a sign, but where appropriate I talk about it) and to never ever go back to that dark place before transition when I was hiding and fighting who I was, to never again become a person who isn't real just to appease others, and to educate people (specifically in the church) to transgendered issues.

I hate the culture of the church at times. It drives me batty. The gender dimorphism can be grueling especially for one who doesn't fit within their predefined gender role. Most of the members I know that have been the most depressed are those who don't fit the ideal example of a "Molly Mormon" or a "Peter Priesthood" and the crushing cultural influence that attempts to get them to conform to those models. The happiest members of the church in contrast are those who go to church for what it is: the doctrine, and not for the social games, for whom cultural influences matter very little.

I would have to say the culture of the church is my biggest struggle with being a member (even if I believe the doctrines). I have taught now in church for 7+ years, and whenever I start to hear church culture being taught or expressed as doctrine, I'm known to nip that in the bud REAL quick. Because of that I became respected as a teacher working to overcome pseudo-doctrine in the church.

Living in the south, it is like an ignorant cultural double whammy. Most of the members here are still influenced by the Bible Belt, southern values, type roots especially as it relates to gender role. I try to stand as a shining example of what it means to be a male who doesn't fit in his gender role that other members can respect. I think that is my greatest calling, to educate people that women and men are not so different. Were I to try to do the same in a transitioned state, many would too easily write me off, but being a male and a respected member and still showing that men don't have to be x, y, z has really helped enlighten minds - regardless if they knew I was trans or not.

In the end, culture, not doctrine, provides most of the problems for members of the church. Sometimes the leaders let culture dictate their edicts - something I believe God will hold them accountable for - especially if it brings about pain. I hope to promote more acceptance of individuals with unique challenges in this life and to not immediately write them off as sinners. But the only way to do this is to fight the culture, show its flaws, and enlighten minds one at a time without doing it in such a visceral way (as is often attempted by non-members) as to alienate the church member who need educating.

Yes Culture is a powerful thing in the church. It was expressed for a long time that we were not allowed to drink Coke...That was never a doctrine. Just like some have been known to go over board and claim that eating chocolate was a bad thing because of caffeine in chocolate. LOL

Change takes time....I do know 10 years ago I would have been tossed out on sight for being trans.

[Guest gentleman1]

I have been off line the past couple of days so sorry for not responding sooner. ( I think I would have had a stroke if my church barred me from eating chocolate!!! lol). After reading both your and Interalia's posts, it just seems to confirm many of my theories concerning religion, culture, and being trans. Believe it or not, but after discovering this thread and reading through it, I am strongly considering returning to my own Church. I am Roman Catholic, so I can strongly identify with the concept of "church cultulre" and the pushing of female and male stereotypes, although we don't generally get divided up into a Relief Society or Priesthood for all....(so that must be even tougher to deal with!), women are strongly encouraged to emulate the Virgin Mary and taught that man is the head of the household based on St. Pauls writings in I Corinthians, etc. Interalia, I can appreciate the point you make about teaching others that there are different ways of being a man, and that IS a gift and I hope others around you receive it as such so, I can see a fresh perspective of your having detransitioned. (I just hope that you won't be used by anyone in your church or from without, to discourage the rest of us who still have a driving need to transition....last time I'll bring that up!)

I think one reason why some may be reacting so harshly to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is due to the backlash from the Proposition 8 controversy in California. Was the church not instrumental in funding it to get on the ballot there?.....including similar propositions in other states? I know there is a heavy LDS population here in my state..(see flag). That having been said, I could never take my anger out on the adherants to your church because I have found so many to be wonderful people who "put their money where their mouth is" so to speak because they LIVE what they believe, and I am impressed! TAke care and peace! - Shawn

[Guest (Lightsider)]

I have been off line the past couple of days so sorry for not responding sooner. ( I think I would have had a stroke if my church barred me from eating chocolate!!! lol). After reading both your and Interalia's posts, it just seems to confirm many of my theories concerning religion, culture, and being trans. Believe it or not, but after discovering this thread and reading through it, I am strongly considering returning to my own Church. I am Roman Catholic, so I can strongly identify with the concept of "church cultulre" and the pushing of female and male stereotypes, although we don't generally get divided up into a Relief Society or Priesthood for all....(so that must be even tougher to deal with!), women are strongly encouraged to emulate the Virgin Mary and taught that man is the head of the household based on St. Pauls writings in I Corinthians, etc. Interalia, I can appreciate the point you make about teaching others that there are different ways of being a man, and that IS a gift and I hope others around you receive it as such so, I can see a fresh perspective of your having detransitioned. (I just hope that you won't be used by anyone in your church or from without, to discourage the rest of us who still have a driving need to transition....last time I'll bring that up!)

I think one reason why some may be reacting so harshly to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is due to the backlash from the Proposition 8 controversy in California. Was the church not instrumental in funding it to get on the ballot there?.....including similar propositions in other states? I know there is a heavy LDS population here in my state..(see flag). That having been said, I could never take my anger out on the adherents to your church because I have found so many to be wonderful people who "put their money where their mouth is" so to speak because they LIVE what they believe, and I am impressed! TAke care and peace! - Shawn

The Church did indeed back the Prop 8 deal in California. However it was not the only religion. It was just brought front and center. Catholics and other denominations were behind it too. Ironically Steve Youngs wife refused to back prop 8. She voted no. Did the church go after her for that? no...but I bet the culture of the church presented some sort of back lash for her.

Perhaps one day the culture of my church will be a bit more open and receptive...but it won't happen today or tomorrow...that is for sure.

[Sally]

I understand about the culture of a church and how it differs from the actual doctrines and that is what has me looking for a new church, hopefully within the same denomination because it is the culture of my own particular congregation that has been shifting and not to a better and wider view of Christianity but more of a 'let's circle the wagons and back up a few decades' approach.

We have been going through Senior Ministers so quickly and it seems that all they have to do is preach one sermon that is accepting of Jewish or Islamics as Children of God and they are out the door!

One even suggested that Buddhist could go to heaven because while they are not a typical deity based religion there is nothing in their teachings and behavior that would keep them from receiving God's grace - how dare he!

Most people have a Country Club mentality about heaven - it is much more interested in who you exclude than who you include.

Love was and to me still is the most important teaching of Jesus, the Christ and sadly it is the part that most religions skim over trying to find a religious backing for their favorite prejudice.

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest interalia]

To be honest, I could not be a member of any church, or even be religious at all had I not had the experiences I had that led me to the Mormon faith. I'm far too skeptical and too analytical for my own good. I get along well with my wife who is somewhere between an agnostic and an atheist because we discuss just about EVERYTHING with an eye of skepticism.

However, this skepticism and tendency to see things for how they are has benefited me as a member of my church. I'm rarely taken in by cultural church practices. When someone proclaims something that I'm not familiar with being in the doctrine, I'm the first ask them, "How do you know that? What is your source?" I have been in several bishop's offices saying things like, "I noticed that you always do things this way in the church. Why is that?" 99% of the time, it is revealed to be culture even if they don't realize it at the time, and some of my bishops have "shaken things up" by changing whatever practice I was asking about.

My questioning has gotten some people to precede their points with, "Well, I'm not sure if this is doctrine, but I heard from xxxx ..." At least that way rumors and weirdness are not making their way as easily through the church. I am a regular member on a popular LDS board and despite being there to be with other members, I find myself more often challenging the ideas presented by some of the people as non-doctrinal.

All that being said, I still believe. I have reasons for doing so that go far beyond the failings of the members. I still find myself learning from them every week. As I see it, we both have things to offer each other.