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Female Trans Golfers Who Experienced Puberty Are Barred From Women's Elite Tours


Carolyn Marie

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https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/lpga-usga-announce-new-eligibility-rules-transgender-golfers-rcna182884

 

I don't have a major problem with this decision.  However, sometime in the not-too-distant future a young trans woman who did not experience male puberty will try to qualify for the LPGA tour.  We'll see what these guardians of fairness have to say then.  My prediction: they will scream bloody murder anyway.  And then we will all know what this is really all about...

 

Carolyn Marie

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Their documents indicate using the "Tanner stages" of puberty, which have some significant issues.  Not to mention that the Tanner scale was never meant to be used for legal purposes or anything beyond general advice for parents and pediatricians.  And of course its absolutely inadequate to address any intersex issues. 

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I also have little problem with this.  It is a fact that male puberty can give some advantages in some sports.  The sentiments behind the decision might be another matter, but…

It of course sux for Davidson, but that's how it is in this case.

 

This is one more problem with blocking youth's access to gender affirming care.  They are forced to go through (in this case) male puberty, which will prevent them participating in the future.

 

Personally, when I made the decision to transition, I accepted that it would put limits on my life.  Of course in my case, "sports" were not an issue.  At my age they are more matters of lost male privilege, bathrooms, social acceptance and personal safety.  I had to decide if it was worth it.  In my case it was, and is.

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5 hours ago, Carolyn Marie said:

However, sometime in the not-too-distant future a young trans woman who did not experience male puberty will try to qualify for the LPGA tour.  We'll see what these guardians of fairness have to say then. 

 

Which is exactly why the MAGAs want to ensure that male puberty is never blocked.  It just simplifies the "thought" process.

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7 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

Their documents indicate using the "Tanner stages" of puberty, which have some significant issues.

I wasn't familiar with this scale; awkward-yet-sweet, you are right about the scale having issues.  And it appears many of these issues are well known, so it is a little surprising the LPGA chose to use it as a valid scale for puberty.  In the end, it all comes back to defining what it means to be male or female, and there just isn't (probably can't be) a one size fits all scale.

 

Still, I understand what the LPGA is trying to do but unfortunately they and other sports authorities don't have a reliable body of evidence they can rely on to establish fair rules.  I think there would need to a significant, long-term study done assessing the physical capabilities of trans women, but I don't think that is going to happen given that trans women make up such a small percentage of sports competitors.  

 

It probably will never happen in our society, but I think a better plan is to eliminate the notion of male and female categories in sports altogether, and instead, establish strength or body mass index categories- sort of like boxing categories where a welterweight would never compete against a heavyweight.

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5 hours ago, Sally Stone said:

It probably will never happen in our society, but I think a better plan is to eliminate the notion of male and female categories in sports altogether, and instead, establish strength or body mass index categories- sort of like boxing categories where a welterweight would never compete against a heavyweight.

 

I'm not even sure a "weight" category for sports would be the right answer.  Not even sure it works in boxing or MMA, really.  I've watched my cute little featherweight GF totally beat down a much larger male opponent who supposedly had MMA training and military history (thank God it was a planned sparring match, or he probably would have ended up in the morgue.) 

 

There's something to be said for raw fury and instinct...it can make small size and speed a very effective combination even against greater size and force.  Even testosterone or lack thereof doesn't seem to always be a deciding factor, and physical size doesn't matter in all sports.  Golf?  How much is strength and size really an advantage?  Or perhaps competitive shooting?  I think in some events it can easily be argued that gender is basically irrelevant to the fairness of the playing field. 

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Just now, awkward-yet-sweet said:

 

 Even testosterone or lack thereof doesn't seem to always be a deciding factor, and physical size doesn't matter in all sports.  Golf?  How much is strength and size really an advantage? 

 

The reason I had little objection to the rule change is b/c in golf, strength and the speed of one's swing is a huge factor in success.  So a trans woman who went through male puberty would possibly have a significant advantage. In the short game, however (e.g. putting) it wouldn't matter at all.  Of course, there are large and very muscular cis-women, and no one objects to them competing against shorter, weaker or less muscular women golfers.   In sports such as badminton, cycling and yes, even chess, there is little or no strength advantage for trans women who have been on hormones for several years, yet trans women are still barred from professional or elite levels.

 

But other reasons given for banning trans women from sports include reducing the number of available sports scholarships or professional opportunities for cis-women.  Those reasons would almost certainly be substituted for the physical advantage reasons if more early-transition transgender women sought to compete.

 

Carolyn Marie

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Just now, Carolyn Marie said:

 

The reason I had little objection to the rule change is b/c in golf, strength and the speed of one's swing is a huge factor in success.  So a trans woman who went through male puberty would possibly have a significant advantage.

 

Carolyn Marie

I think most of us would acknowledge this. In areas of strength, there is likely an advantage, and sporting organisations need to protect their Sports. 

 

This raises another issue, which may be worth a topic of its own. In areas where a trans person is likely to have an advantage, shouldn't the person admit this and refrain from competing? We do not want to take a backward step in equal opportunities, but how much damage to the whole trans community has been done by results like that of Lia Thomas? What is our moral position with this?

 

Hugs,

 

Allie

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5 minutes ago, Carolyn Marie said:

Of course, there are large and very muscular cis-women, and no one objects to them competing against shorter, weaker or less muscular women golfers. 

Yes.

 

Too often, the opponents of trans women competing in women's sport cite the 'they-are-really-men' concept, but in reality, if a woman gets off her butt, goes to the gym, trains hard etc., they are always going to beat those who don't. Regardless of assigned gender at birth.

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Just now, Mirrabooka said:

Yes.

 

Too often, the opponents of trans women competing in women's sport cite the 'they-are-really-men' concept, but in reality, if a woman gets off her butt, goes to the gym, trains hard etc., they are always going to beat those who don't. Regardless of assigned gender at birth.

Mirrabooka, we have in Melbourne an endocrinologist conducting  research into trans people in sport, Professor Ada Cheung. Some of her early findings are that residual muscle mass may be of little advantage as within 3 months of starting MtF HRT, haemoglobin levels are reduced to female levels, meaning there isn't enough oxygen to feed the muscle to achieve previous performance, and in fact, if the muscle mass is greater than cis women, it actually becomes less efficient as some of the O2 is needed to keep the extra muscle alive. So this is a real factor in endurance events, but not such a factor in short duration strength events. Teeing off at golf would be short duration.

 

We all have different levels of strength as cis people, and different effects from HRT. I was naturally strong pre HRT, and, even though I am 70 years old, nearly 6 years HRT and 3 years Post op, I am still stronger than most women, and many men. I know I would have had a natural advantage in strength events post male puberty no matter when I started HRT, so I would never have competed with cis women. In strength at least, there may well be an advantage for trans women over cis women.

 

The Australian Sex Discrimination Act protects trans people, but has an exception for sports where there may be a demonstrated advantage, which gives each sporting body at least the option to rule on individuals they determine to have an advantage. This case by case determination seems to be the best model I have yet seen, and after Pof. Cheungs final report, may be the basis for global sporting organisations. 

 

Hugs,

 

Allie

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3 hours ago, AllieJ said:

In areas where a trans person is likely to have an advantage, shouldn't the person admit this and refrain from competing?

This is kinda how I feel about it.  I have already said that when I made the decision to transition, I realized there were some things I would have to give up, or lose.  For me, it was worth it to be able to be myself.

And being pre-op (more likely never-op) I am not going to use a women's locker/shower room.

Bathrooms are a different matter.  I am not exposing anything when I lock myself in a stall and take care of things.

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Just now, AllieJ said:

each sporting body at least the option to rule on individuals they determine to have an advantage. This case by case determination seems to be the best model I have yet seen

I agree with this approach.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Mark Yarhouse said,"when you have met one transperson, you have met one transperson."   The point here is that there are so few that it can only justly be on a case by case basis, with some simply accepting the fact they cannot compete either as men or women.  People get cut from sports teams, others have disabilities that prevent them from playing; not everyone has a right to be on a team.   The majority has rights, but so doe minorities, and the careful balance between the two is one we must be diligent in maintaining for the good of everyone, majority or minority.

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Just now, Abigail Genevieve said:

it can only justly be on a case by case basis

This is pretty much how I see it too.

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