Keeping Up Appearances

[Ivy]

Just now, Centered_Self89 said:

The look you like is part of feeling feminine but being feminine is a bit different.

I agree.  There is something that is deep inside us that's independent of clothes etc.  They are only how we express ourselves in the moment.

[Centered_Self89]

Just now, Ivy said:

I agree.  There is something that is deep inside us that's independent of clothes etc.  They are only how we express ourselves in the moment.

Yes! Very much this! Everywhere we are, that's who we are.

[MaeBe]

Just because we don’t do gender the same, doesn’t mean anyone is less or more so said gender—or a threat to yours. Let the person wear fishnets to the clinic. Wear that hoodie to church. Wear the makeup or don’t. But for the love of all that we hold dear, please stop clutching your pearls when someone dresses outside your boundaries of style or perceived appropriateness. 

[Centered_Self89]

Just now, MaeBe said:

Just because we don’t do gender the same, doesn’t mean anyone is less or more so said gender—or a threat to yours. Let the person wear fishnets to the clinic. Wear that hoodie to church. Wear the makeup or don’t. But for the love of all that we hold dear, please stop clutching your pearls when someone dresses outside your boundaries of style or perceived appropriateness. 

I agree with this also, let people be themselves. I didn't mean to say that anyone is more or less anything, more meant that being true to who you are isn't necessarily determined by outfit.

[Betty K]

I'm so glad to see support for the fishnetted trans woman's right to wear what she wants in this thread. That warms my heart. It makes me sad when some trans people try to police other trans people's appearances, even though I know well that discomfort at seeing a trans woman overdoing it!

 

Having said that, I suspect I am someone who can be a little bit "extra" in my displays of femininity too, though generally these days not in a hypersexual way. The thing is, I see cis women (or women I presume to be cis) who are a bit extra too. At any one time in the mall in the city centre, for eg, there might be a 10 or 20 of us who are more bold and colorful than everyone else, and I personally love to see those other bold and colorful women. I also know that many people (mostly women) love to see me, since I get many compliments. So when some trans people urge other trans people to "blend in" I feel affronted and annoyed. I hurt nobody, in fact I bring happiness to at least some people, and nobody is urging cis women to blend in.

 

In my experience, as regards harassment from men, it doesn't much matter what I wear. In fact, it seems to often be when I am "dressed down" that it happens most. Are jeans and a tanktop particularly provocative? I think simply being visibly trans invites harassment from men. So if it's somehow our responsibility every time a man can't control himself then we are basically condemned to staying at home if we are to avoid harassment.

 

Btw thanks @Timi for bringing up A History of Trans Misoginy, since you've reminded me I'd like to finish it sometime. I never even reached the chapter on Mujerísima, which was the aspect of the book that interested me most!

[kat2]

Some things can take a very long time to learn. I feel this is a situation where dressing to fit the occasion might be more tactful.

I was lucky that i shared a house with 4 other girls we were all of the same age as me. When i was in a wicked mood, I could be wicked. I once bought a baywatch style swimsuit cropped top and shorts we went down to the beach and on the way back i decided to drop the strapps on my swimsuit and put the cropped top back on so i could get a sun tan on my belly  and showi off my new navel ring!! I began to learn the art of my assets but i had so much more to learn.My flat mates on my birthday sent me to a beauticians for a bermuda god i was embrassed and it was sooo painfull. On another occasion we all went out shopping and went to miss selfridges (fashion shop) a white lycra dress took my eye (after all i was young)  that evening (friday night) we trip the light fantastic I was in my bedroom trying on my new white lycra dress and thong and Debra grinned and said five minutes and you will be flat on your back with a big grin on her face!! needless to say i did but it was so funny the way it happend I went into the girls toilets and a girl bit my bum so hard it bled the girls i was out with realised my plight and came to the rescue Debra said "your going to have to go and get a tetnus jab" I said what and explain to A and E how i got teeth marks on my bum. So the story is, dress for the occasion and be wary of the signals that you might be sending out intentional or other

[Centered_Self89]

5 hours ago, Betty K said:

Btw thanks @Timi for bringing up A History of Trans Misoginy

So I started reading this today and I've enjoyed it, would you suggest any other books? 

[Timi]

Just now, Centered_Self89 said:

So I started reading this today and I've enjoyed it, would you suggest any other books? 

My apologies to the moderators if this is too much of a topic drift ... I'll keep it brief ... but I do think there is a link between trans feminism and ideas of what is permissible in terms of public dress. 

 

One book that is a good read and is referenced often enough to pretty much be considered a classic trans book is Julia Serano's "Whipping Girl."

 

A similar classic trans reference is Susan Stryker's "Transgender History."

 

A book that is not as widely known but one that I think stands up very well with the other books on this list is C N Lester's "Trans Like Me -- Conversations for All of Us"

 

-Timi

 

[Centered_Self89]

Just now, Timi said:

My apologies to the moderators if this is too much of a topic drift ... I'll keep it brief ... but I do think there is a link between trans feminism and ideas of what is permissible in terms of public dress. 

 

One book that is a good read and is referenced often enough to pretty much be considered a classic trans book is Julia Serano's "Whipping Girl."

 

A similar classic trans reference is Susan Stryker's "Transgender History."

 

A book that is not as widely known but one that I think stands up very well with the other books on this list is C N Lester's "Trans Like Me -- Conversations for All of Us"

 

-Timi

Thank you! I'm going to read them all, I'll also be more mindful of the topic at hand going forward. I come from a bit of a backward place but am doing what I can to catch up, I appreciate the patience I've been shown. Thank you for this!

[MariChelan]

@Timii loved Whipping Girl, and i might check out the transmisogyny book, so thank you for bringing it up!

 

i can't recall where I read about this—it may have been in Whipping Girl itself, or perhaps in A People's History of the United States?—but this discussion reminds me of the early gay rights movement, where there was a strong emphasis on moderation, fitting in, and showing that we were "equals" with straight people (to no avail, of course.) Eventually people got fed up with trying to squeeze into social norms and instead decided to be loudly and unapologetically themselves, which seems to have worked much better.

[kat2]

I suppose some individuals may well like drawing attention to themselves. I tend to wear what flatters my appearance but is also a social norm, if you can pull it off go for it. I am a lover of fashion but i am also very tactful when it comes down to the right occasion.But we should not forget that clothes are a form of expression, but we should also accept the consequence's of going outside the norms may draw attention and it is how to handle that situation.

[Timi]

I'm not a fishnet wearer either. And although I'm not going to disparage those who rock the fishnets - and as I said before, I celebrate them - I do think that those styles do reinforce what C N Lester calls "the production of ignorance" in their book Trans Like Me, Conversations for All of Us, where they write:

 

"Here are a few of the things the media shows, and has shown, trans people to be: confused, deceitful, delusional, damaged, predatory, brave (sometimes), pitiable, pathetic. A punch line, a warning, a mistake." 

 

I remember searching the Internet shortly after I was questioning, and was captivated by a trans website (which I haven't been able to find again) that had a picture of a trans woman at a bus stop. From her style, she could have been a librarian on the way to work. That's the invisible trans story that I think would help our cause. A lot of trans people are just plain "normal" people. I think Representative Sarah McBride is an exceptionally good representation of this, and I am so glad she's in the public sphere at this moment in history. 

 

[MaeBe]

Just now, Timi said:

That's the invisible trans story that I think would help our cause.

 

9 hours ago, MariChelan said:

but this discussion reminds me of the early gay rights movement, where there was a strong emphasis on moderation, fitting in, and showing that we were "equals" with straight people (to no avail, of course.)

 

Lets be honest, they don't care how you're dressed.

 

Let me say it again THEY DON'T CARE HOW YOU'RE DRESSED. Or what color hair you have. Or if you had laser done. They don't care if you fit in. They don't care if you're the sweetest person on the planet.

 

They don't care if you're invisible. They won't let you live if you look like a model, a librarian, or a goth club kid. This idea that being invisible is EXACTLY what Mari was alluding to. Assimilation hasn't and doesn't work.

 

Being invisible MAY save THEIR backside, but it's not possible REGARDLESS OF DRESS for many to pass or achieve stealth. ESPECIALLY when they remove all access to gender-affirming care. And ESPECIALLY when privileged trans folks, who have money, had their surgeries and access to hormones, push DOWN on and push OUT those that don't and can't.

 

I am so glad with everyone that dresses their age and to their opinion of taste and are happy to play the respectability game, I really am. I'm sitting here in skinny jeans, a tasteful short sleeved ribbed sweater top, and a blue blazer with a face of makeup on. I am about as BASIC as a trans woman gets, but I KNOW they will still come for me when the time comes. And "they" doesn't even have to mean government goons, it may instead be our neighbors--our NEIGHBORS--who come for us.

 

As for Representative McBride...

 

I will continue think she will watch the bus run over us if she can get lower prices on eggs and a ensure a climbing stock market until she proves me wrong. I know that she is not the only person in Congress that should be advocating for trans rights, but she's happy to distance herself from trans people in the name of "fixing things for American Workers". Most recently she notes the Executive attacks on trans people as mere "distractions" and what's really concerning is the fleecing of Americans by a kleptocratic government. In another she said there "may be consequences" for "some trans people" as it pertains to privacy and access to/benefits from federal programs. These are major concerns and she's treating them like mild inconveniences--service members are getting fired, their kids can't get medicine, Federal Employees are being drummed out, American citizens are at risk of not being able to travel or return safely from it, the federal government is bullying health care providers to prevent the prescription of GAC, and on top of it all calls queer people DECEITFUL. Let's look at history, Trump has had things blocked by litigation so many times but most of the time they end up only being delayed, so why do we think that wearing a nice outfit is going to keep the wolves at bay?

 

Also, why can't we advocate for trans Americans AND fight for the American worker? Since, you know, we're one in the same.

 

But, I get it. We're 1% of the population and we're not helping get anyone re-elected. There are "bigger concerns" than active measures of genocide being pushed down the chains of command. There are REAL Americans suffering out there right now...

[Ivy]

McBride is only one congresswoman out of many (please don't ask me how many).  She has to be strategic and choose her battles.

I suspect that the majority of her constituents are not transgender, and she has to think of them as well.

The Republicans have already shown that they plan to do anything they can to insult her and make her life miserable - just like the rest of us.

 

[MaeBe]

Just now, Ivy said:

McBride is only one congresswoman out of many (please don't ask me how many).  She has to be strategic and choose her battles.

I suspect that the majority of her constituents are not transgender, and she has to think of them as well.

The Republicans have already shown that they plan to do anything they can to insult her and make her life miserable - just like the rest of us.

 

One can walk and chew gum at the same time, no? I don’t expect her to rant and rave (like I am) but do us the decency of calling out the harm, not minimizing it. “Some” trans people “may” be affected…my word. She’s playing the respectability game and the only one not losing out is her, so far. She’s not losing her job or her care. I guess she does have to walk all the way to her private restroom from the House floor.