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NPR article on term "gender ideology"


Audrey

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Just now, MaeBe said:

One of the big issues is that there aren’t many studies on “either side” that are great for some scenarios (like de-transition). There are some great census-style papers to draw some conclusions from but they don’t cover everything. The sad state is there are people dumping money into anti-trans “research” and very little money is going into new objective research. But we should have our talking points set, our data citable and sound, and our BS detectors set to 11. 


Agreed. “Detransition” is an incredibly difficult thing to research, not least because there is so far no widely agreed-upon definition. That’s why I think we should *always* acknowledge the uncertainty of any statistic we cite regarding that topic, and other topics too. There has never been much money for trans research and numbers of patients are small. We have to acknowledge these facts. I actually think it’s better to not quote statistics at all if we’re not capable of citing sources *and* addressing any limitations in the research. And we should always expect that the other side will just cite another statistic back, which is why at least some of us need to study the research they cite so that we’ll be ready to refute it.

 

Having said all that, I have to admit I sometimes question the point of engaging at all on the topic of science. I think personal stories might work much better. Share our stories. Humanise ourselves in our audience’s eyes. And maybe sprinkle a bit of science in just to be sure.

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Thanks for the links @kat2. The Stonewall one looks potentially useful, since it links to a big long list of studies many of which I haven't seen before. But I have to say I didn't find either of these links very illuminating as regards "detransition".

 

The first study uses a much too broad definition imo. Here it is: "Detransition refers to the stopping or reversal of transitioning which could be social (gender presentation, pronouns), medical (hormone therapy), surgical, or legal." So by that definition simply stopping hormone therapy would qualify as detransition, but I know two transmasculine people who have stopped hormones because they achieved the physical changes they were seeking and simply don't need hormones anymore. Neither regards themselves as a detransitioner. Also that bit you quoted is pure conjecture. "There is reason to believe that the numbers of detransitioners will increase..." We can be almost certain numbers will increase, since numbers of people transitioning have increased. But will the percentage of people increase? The study offers no evidence that is happening.

 

As to the Stonewall article, I'm not impressed with two of the studies it links to. The first appears to be a one-page summary, which doesn't specify the length of the study or how many people were lost to follow-up. Without those details the link is basically useless imo. The second claims that "What we know from the research is that those acknowledgments of regret are actually most often related to unsatisfactory surgical results,." But then it links to a study that doesn't confirm that at all, since it focuses *only* on people who have had surgery. I think this is an example of an argument that will only convince those who already want to be convinced. I'm not saying the overall argument is wrong, but I don't think it's well supported by the evidence it links to.

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Just now, Betty K said:

Neither regards themselves as a detransitioner. Also that bit you quoted is pure conjecture. "There is reason to believe that the numbers of detransitioners will increase...

The media in General focus's on awe those poor people need mental help to protect them from themselves? But as you have clearly pointed out there are several reasons and it should not be assumed that de transition actually took place, yet it is implied that if one stops hormone therapy one has de transitioned? you may also de transition due to poor health again good reason as to why before using such a word the reason behind using such.

I think that maybe the focus on increased detransition numbers could be two fold, there is now a higher instance of female to male, where surgical outcomes and the delay in getting surgery could be an issue? a few trans masc friends i have and in that group one individual expressed disappointment because he went completely bald and the surgical outcome was not what he had expected, yes this is only a snapshot and we are in the greater scheme a small group. I think the oxford paper in the link above did also mention that since the condition is no longer a mental disorder thus lacking psychological support or intervention could also be a factor, most today as the paper points out are self certified.

Years ago when i transitioned it was classed as a mental disorder, and there were many factors that were in place to make sure that your transition was going to be successful in effect when i transitioned you were groomed and expected to behave in a certain fashion by conforming to society norms you were in effect invisible to the public.

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2 hours ago, kat2 said:

I think the oxford paper in the link above did also mention that since the condition is no longer a mental disorder thus lacking psychological support or intervention could also be a factor, most today as the paper points out are self certified.


Yes, the paper says that, but offers no evidence that it is true. It’s one of many unevidenced claims commonly made by anti-trans campaigners. 

 

2 hours ago, kat2 said:

Years ago when i transitioned it was classed as a mental disorder, and there were many factors that were in place to make sure that your transition was going to be successful in effect when i transitioned you were groomed and expected to behave in a certain fashion by conforming to society norms you were in effect invisible to the public.


I know you’ve said elsewhere that you think we might be better off going back to that situation, but we’ll just have to agree to disagree about that. 

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3 hours ago, kat2 said:

Years ago when i transitioned it was classed as a mental disorder, and there were many factors that were in place to make sure that your transition was going to be successful in effect when i transitioned you were groomed and expected to behave in a certain fashion by conforming to society norms you were in effect invisible to the public.

So to be allowed to transition, you were coerced into behaving exactly as the patriarchy expected women to behave? I can't even... And this is being advocated for? Truly?

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Today I learned that "gender ideology" evidently originated through the Catholic Church in the 1980s. Shocking. I know. (sarcasm, in case it's not clear)

 

The article linked below was written in 2018. I like their definition.

 

"[Gender ideology] has developed into a catch-all phrase and short-hand for various anxieties about social change—a Hydra-like global conspiracy myth that, despite being mildly ridiculous and readily exposed, has significant traction...Some have referred to the term as “symbolic glue,” or an “empty signifier”: it simultaneously means nothing and everything, but is consistently used to attack feminism, transgender equality, the existence of intersex bodies, the elimination of sex stereotyping, family law reform, same-sex marriage, access to abortion, contraception and comprehensive sexuality education."

 

Now, the article linked at the end of the piece where it says, "LGBT advocates pushing back would do well to learn from their opponents’ playbook", is written by Mary Anne Case, a contributor to The Heritage Foundation, which SPLG lists as a hate group.

 

I haven't read... don't have the stomach at present to read the Case article. But it seems like it may help to...I want to say illuminate, but that's entirely inappropriate...help inform (?) about the origins of the so-called ideology.

 

https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/12/10/breaking-buzzword-fighting-gender-ideology-myth

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Just now, MaeBe said:

So to be allowed to transition, you were coerced into behaving exactly as the patriarchy expected women to behave? I can't even... And this is being advocated for? Truly?

 

In the past, going "stealth" was required if you wanted to transition.  Partly, it was for safety, but mostly it was a test to see if you were "trans enough" to transition.

 

There are good practical reasons why someone might want to go stealth today.  It is not for me, it is not for many others, and it is no longer a requirement.  But I can see why someone would want to choose that.

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5 hours ago, KathyLauren said:

In the past, going "stealth" was required if you wanted to transition.

My concern was specifically regarding health institutions “grooming” trans people into what they expect a woman to be and the championing its (return?) as a part of standard care. Stealth as a concept the desire for it isn’t exactly my concern here, It’s the enforcement of and gatekeeping of care behind poisoned ideas of womanhood.

 

Do people (including trans people) want a “return to” or demand the implementation of a Stepfordization of trans women, actually?

 

From my perspective they want trans people gone. Not hidden. Gone. In fact, I believe the GC and anti-trans ideologues want to ensure stealth isn’t possible, so there wouldn’t be a way to hide. They don’t want our conformity, they want our elimination. 

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8 hours ago, MaeBe said:

So to be allowed to transition, you were coerced into behaving exactly as the patriarchy expected women to behave? I can't even...

This is my whole point, are you trans so that you become noticed? if you are stealth then there is nothing to see, the type of i dont see? like when women argue with each other thinking that the other is trans and a trans girl walks right past un noticed, if you cannot see something it makes it harder to bring attention towards it. The anti trans movement has become stronger due to the demands made by the trans people themselves, I am not sure i like the idea of identifying or being out in public is a good thing? I must admit the sterio typical role was very hard on me in part due to the attention from boys, i had alot to learn but i fitted in and for that i am truly grateful 

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Just now, kat2 said:

This is my whole point, are you trans so that you become noticed? if you are stealth then there is nothing to see, the type of i dont see? like when women argue with each other thinking that the other is trans and a trans girl walks right past un noticed, if you cannot see something it makes it harder to bring attention towards it. The anti trans movement has become stronger due to the demands made by the trans people themselves, I am not sure i like the idea of identifying or being out in public is a good thing? I must admit the sterio typical role was very hard on me in part due to the attention from boys, i had alot to learn but i fitted in and for that i am truly grateful 

 

Kat one of the problems with this is that some trans people simply can't be stealth. Back in the time you are talking about some trans women were refused treatment because of their appearances, or their sexualities. In this sense you were one of the lucky ones. But even you admitted that there was something "dehumanising" about the process.

 

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Just now, Betty K said:

 

Kat one of the problems with this is that some trans people simply can't be stealth. 

 

Exactly. It's not just about transgender people who purposely bring attention to themselves, who forcefully advocate. Some of us draw attention just by being ourselves.

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The current US government don't care what trans people look like, they reject the very concept there can be other than cis people. All trans people are being erased, regardless of their appearance. And there doesn't seem to be an effective way we can fight it.

 

Hugs,

 

Allie

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Just now, Betty K said:

Back in the time you are talking about some trans women were refused treatment because of their appearances,

Betty i know, I saw first hand at the gender clinics and the reasons give was that by going through the process of re assignment would cause those that were not stealth more mental health issues, and harm. There is no doubt it was dehumanising but at least it was seen as a mental health condition treatable by the desired outcome, stealth

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Just now, kat2 said:

Betty i know, I saw first hand at the gender clinics and the reasons give was that by going through the process of re assignment would cause those that were not stealth more mental health issues, and harm.

 

So how did that make you feel for the ones who missed out?

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Just now, April Marie said:

Some of us draw attention just by being ourselves.

 

... which must be a heavy burden to carry in the States atm.

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I've read that de-transition is in the 2% range.

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Just now, Heather Shay said:

I've read that de-transition is in the 2% range.

 

Can you cite a source? How does the source define "detransition"? My point is that unless you know the source and can vouch for it, I don't know if it's worth repeating the statistic. Some of the anti-trans brigade have their own very different statistics, and they remember their sources. If you end up debating with one of those people, you may come away with egg on your face.

 

If anyone's interested, this is the most thorough overview of the topic I have found. But it's not peer-reviewed, be warned.

 

https://medium.com/@lexi.m.henny/how-common-is-detransition-a-review-of-all-the-evidence-95518e6affe1

 

 

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Just now, MaeBe said:

They don’t want our conformity, they want our elimination.

 

Just now, Betty K said:

Kat one of the problems with this is that some trans people simply can't be stealth.

I don't know as I could ever truly be "stealth".

That was one thing I had to consider when I did come out.

I do expect things to get worse for us here in the US of A, but I think we'll just have to realize that that is the world we are in now.  I doubt that many of us transition just for fun.

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I feel like the concern of stealth and passing is of paramount importance in a time when our protection under the law, our rights, and our safety are subject to "gender ideology" as stated by the executive order and its interpretation and implementation. Early in my transition in 2020 and 2021, I was obsessed with the idea of stealth and passing when I knew it was nearly impossible for me to do - short hair, five o'clock shadow, no visible HRT effects, no voice therapy, and less understanding how to dress femininely and flatter my body.

 

However, I refuse to just curl up in a corner and disappear for the benefit and comfort of others who harbor bigotry, and hate people they do not know or understand. I am not a scapegoat for other problems, or a pawn to be used to advance an agenda. Surely, all of us here and in our community are resolute in these feelings. It does not and should not matter how well someone passes or goes stealth. All of us have the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

 

We can find inspiration for how to fight from how Black people fought against Jim Crow laws and Apartheid. There are a lot of parallels between those and what "gender ideology" is attempting to do. A key lesson from those fights is that people stronger together than fragmented. The battle will not be easy, and some may pay a high price for standing up for their rights and what is right. Today, the most important thing we can do is come together and coalesce around our allies and supporters. In a time of despair, let that be a light and hope.

 

Love,

~Audrey.

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Just now, kat2 said:

re assignment would cause those that were not stealth more mental health issues, and harm. There is no doubt it was dehumanising but at least it was seen as a mental health condition treatable by the desired outcome, stealth

So stealth in, stealth out?

 

That’s an incredibly high bar to clear, one that it will be impossible for many simply due to availability of care and access to the money required. Never mind the concept that people that aren’t stealth “can’t handle it”. 

 

I am about as basic and compliant to general stereotypes as one can be, but I do have access to medications. I had a job that allowed me to afford cosmetics and a simple wardrobe. Even still, I would not be considered stealth on my best day. So, because I don’t already pass a bar I would/should not receive any care whatsoever? Because an old man in a lab coat doesn’t find me sexually atttactive already? And what of trans men? How are they expected to pass as stealth before receiving treatment?

 

I am sorry if I am coming across as picking on you, Kat. That is not my intention. My issue is with the concept, not you. I find this concept galling, because I can see it intertwined with racism, classism, and misogyny. It must have been so traumatic for you and those that had to pass through those “halls”. Perhaps to the point it might seem like a badge of honor, an institution that must be upheld? History has shown that people forced to suffer may be broken into thinking others must suffer the same as they had. This creation of cyclical suffering is a tool of oppression and that is why I want liberation for all trans people.

 

If I, a privileged white AMAB person raised in Catholicism, can eschew the crap society fed me to accept the world’s beauty and diversity, so can anyone. The reasons not to are few:  desire to be willfully blind and ignorant to the world or to desire power and privilege over others (or fear the loss of said power and privilege). Being trans just means I have way more skin in the game and inspired me to want all people to have the same rights to live and love and thrive as their neighbors. 

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Just now, MaeBe said:

That’s an incredibly high bar to clear, one that it will be impossible for many simply due to availability of care and access to the money required.

That is my point because you were considered mentally un well the support path was in place, with regard to those that did not pass, the mental health teams took the view of do no harm, and by making someone stand out when they did not before could cause mental  distress? 

 

Just now, AllieJ said:

The current US government don't care what trans people look like,

I still hold the nothing to see concept, stealth has good sound reason for that to be so, how could anyone argue if trans girls look like natal females? they would have no basis to say look at the difference and sadly this is what they play on, it is a sad reflection but we have to be honest

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Just now, kat2 said:

it is a sad reflection but we have to be honest

That system doesn’t exist and will not exist again.

 

Sure, some may survive if they can afford the back alley meds and procedures, and can avoid not getting brutalized or killed before then. So yeah…let’s go back to stealth as a requirement.

 

Is that the reality you want? White girls getting by while black, brown, and disabled ones die?

 

And what of trans men? Their hurdles are higher? Testosterone is a restricted medicine, making it harder to get on the grey market. So, they better have been “blessed” with masculine traits? And we already are hearing tell of lawmakers want to reclassify estrogen, so that might get harder really soon too!

 

Frankly this all seems bioessentialist and bordering on a form of twisted eugenics. 

 

“Only the true trans girls and boys deserve a place in society! And, blessed white children, that place is in the kitchen!”

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Just now, MaeBe said:

“Only the true trans girls and boys deserve a place in society! And, blessed white children, that place is in the kitchen!”

I'm okay with being in the kitchen more or less.  Traditional gender roles are not a problem for me.  But being cut off from my HRT because I don't look good enough does bother me.

 

I don't expect anything but grief from the new regime.  But it's kinda always been that way for women, cis or trans.

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Just now, MaeBe said:

Is that the reality you want

I want i hope what most want that is to blend in and not make a noise, sadly over the years some issues have been taken to the extreme and it is perhaps no wonder some feel it is a step too far? Friends that have known me for years have made comments about trans activism going too far, i just bite my lip in dispair wondering what red flag will be shown to the bull next. An example Tom who is a close friend is also a magistrate of 77 years, he would stride up and down the court and his usual mantra was for the best part of his working life, "ladies and Gentlemen of the court" he was gutted when told he had to go on a diversity training course because he is not permitted to use the words ladies and Gentlemen anymore? same with Phil head of British telecom he came home from work one day with a new ID badge that he wasnt too pleased about, it had his position his name and his preferred pronoun, so I can see how easy it is to get peoples backs up

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      This is mostly true for me.  There were a couple of incidences, but they didn't amount to much.
    • Ivy
      https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/arkansas-bill-would-make-contributing?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=994764&post_id=159265712&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=k5hac&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email   " The bill allows parents to sue anyone who affirms a child’s gender identity, defining social transition broadly as “any act by which a minor adopts or espouses a gender identity that differs from the minor’s biological sex… including without limitation changes in clothing, pronouns, hairstyle, and name.”"   They talk about "irreversible changes", how is changing your clothes irreversible?   "But the bill goes even further: it asserts extraterritorial jurisdiction, meaning lawsuits could be brought against people outside of Arkansas if they are deemed to have helped a transgender child transition. The penalties are staggering—minimum damages of $10,000 per defendant, with punitive damages reaching up to $10 million for those involved in medical care."
    • MaeBe
      Agreed. That was me being facetious.
    • Lilis
      I am of the same opinion, blaming the victims instead of focusing on the actual source of oppression for example (anti-trans policies and the people pushing them) is of no use.     I get it, some people and even some in the trans community are implying that certain trans people, specifically those who are visibly non-conforming, non-binary are responsible for the backlash. Which is also untrue and of no use.     Not at all, transphobia has no place in our community.
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