Reparative Therapy

[MaryEllen]

I thought this article might be of interest to our members.

MaryEllen

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/22283925/detail.html

[Guest Donna Jean]

Good one, Mary Ellen....

Just goes to show that reparitive therapy is not an option and just drives people closer to suicide...

When are these people going to accept the fact that we're all born this way..Trans, gay, Bi, etc..and we just didn't decide to be this way one day like chosing something to wear out of your closet???

If these people would mind their own affairs and keep their noses out of every one else's life, it would be a better world!

Sheesh!

Donna Jean

[Guest Donna Jean]

Wont stop them.

Even if they know were born this way or not, wont make a bit of difference to those who choose to hate us.

If people accepted others who are different because they were born that way, then racism wouldn't exist.

I know, Sweetheart...I just didn't want to say it out loud...

HUGG

Donna Jean

[Guest Eth]

I'm just waiting for the day when having certain religious convictions are exposed for what they really are: insanity. We lock people up in "nut houses" for less than what some of these people spew... But since it's under the guise of "religion" it's a-okay.

Maybe one day we'll REALLY have separation of church and state when they realise people who make decisions for the entire nation based on their personal religious beliefs are not competent enough to hold such positions anyway.

愛 Eth

[Guest praisedbeherhooves]

I'm just waiting for the day when having certain religious convictions are exposed for what they really are: insanity. We lock people up in "nut houses" for less than what some of these people spew... But since it's under the guise of "religion" it's a-okay.

Maybe one day we'll REALLY have separation of church and state when they realise people who make decisions for the entire nation based on their personal religious beliefs are not competent enough to hold such positions anyway.

愛 Eth

Someday I will create a church that worships tabletops. Maybe I will write in a notebook the Holy Word and then insist it proves that tabletops are holy. Then I can crusade against same politics marriage, because same politics marriage can cause children to be subjected to Fox News on the conservative side or the Daily Kos on the liberal side.

[Guest April63]

I'm just waiting for the day when having certain religious convictions are exposed for what they really are: insanity. We lock people up in "nut houses" for less than what some of these people spew... But since it's under the guise of "religion" it's a-okay.

Maybe one day we'll REALLY have separation of church and state when they realise people who make decisions for the entire nation based on their personal religious beliefs are not competent enough to hold such positions anyway.

愛 Eth

We have separation of church and state. Even though it is never actually mentioned in the Constitution... but anyways..

I think you are looking for a separation of religion and state, spirituality and state, but those are impossible to achieve. All they would do is destroy religion, so there's no real benefit in that.

[Guest Nigh]

I'm just waiting for the day when having certain religious convictions are exposed for what they really are: insanity. We lock people up in "nut houses" for less than what some of these people spew... But since it's under the guise of "religion" it's a-okay.

Agreed. Why is it than whenever I talk to someone that isn't there I get called crazy, but whenever a christian or whatever does, they just say they're talking to god? Double standards.

[Guest i is Sam :-)]

The problem is that as far as us atheists are concerned, when a christian goes and prays for guidence all they're actually doing is talking to themselves. And often to a christian guidance from "the lord" is considered much more important, often that cannot be disobeyed rather than guidance from friends, scientists, people who are experts in their field.

Now how you live your private life, that's just fine, but when a president goes off and has a good talk to himself comes back and states that god has told him to go to war, that is a problem. Similarly with politicians who decide whether other people should be allowed to marry, to have or abort children, whether they should be granted the same rights as others, all based soley on what they think, and what they think god has said, which is in fact what they think.

We do not want this, we do not agree with it, it is dangerous, even if a supernatural being did exist, you could not possibly know it's motives, and certainly non of us elected god to run the country.

This is why religion should have absolutely no place in politics including as a source of "personal guidance" for politicians.

[Guest April63]

The problem is that as far as us atheists are concerned, when a christian goes and prays for guidence all they're actually doing is talking to themselves. And often to a christian guidance from "the lord" is considered much more important, often that cannot be disobeyed rather than guidance from friends, scientists, people who are experts in their field.

Now how you live your private life, that's just fine, but when a president goes off and has a good talk to himself comes back and states that god has told him to go to war, that is a problem. Similarly with politicians who decide whether other people should be allowed to marry, to have or abort children, whether they should be granted the same rights as others, all based soley on what they think, and what they think god has said, which is in fact what they think.

We do not want this, we do not agree with it, it is dangerous, even if a supernatural being did exist, you could not possibly know it's motives, and certainly non of us elected god to run the country.

This is why religion should have absolutely no place in politics including as a source of "personal guidance" for politicians.

I disagree, but I see what you're trying to say. If you truly are faking a religious or spiritual moment then you shouldn't call it one and shouldn't try to mislead people. But if you truly have had a revelation from a higher power, then you should certainly act on it. If your Creator tells you to do something, you better do it! He's more powerful than anyone else!

I think the biggest problem is that not everyone accepts the same beliefs, and thus, people reject the ideas of true communication with the Lord. But we can't judge people like that. Just because you haven't spoke with God doesn't mean other people have not.

[Guest i is Sam :-)]

No that's really not what I'm saying. And right here is the perfect example of why the two should never mix.

You cannot comprehend the idea that your god doesn't exist. And it would take some serious evidence for me to believe that he does. We can choose to respect each other's beliefs. And you can decide that god thinks you shouldn't eat bacon. But if you try to tell me that I cannot eat bacon because your god doesn't allow it then we have a serious problem.

[Guest i is Sam :-)]

Even if your god does exist. I refuse to obey, I'd rather go to hell.

[Guest julia_d]

I just can't resist.. when people say "we have separation of church and state in the USA" .. I like to show them this..

[Guest sarah f]

I go to church and I am a member of my church. I have always said that people should be able to marry whoever they choose to marry. In our church, we have gay couples and nobody says a thing to them. We are very open to anyone. I think it is wrong to push your beliefs onto anyone. If they choose to believe in God than that is their choice. Besides there are many different Gods and religion across this world.

Love,

Sarah F

[Guest April63]

Separation of church and state means that the government cannot make any laws requiring you to go to a certain church and it cannot make any laws that do not let you go to church. Essentially, the political power remains with the government, not the church.

This is not the separation of religion and state. This is impossible, as it would require a complete purge of religion. Separation of church and state still allows for religious ideas and phrases (like In God We Trust). There's just no power in the church, or religious power in the government.

[Guest i is Sam :-)]

Umm except the church does weild MASSIVE political influence.

[Guest April63]

Umm except the church does weild MASSIVE political influence.

Everything influences human thought. Religion, spirituality, science, math, history, philosophy, art, family, past experiences, technology, medicine, and on and on. You can't control the thought of others, but you can control who you give the power to. Refusing to give political power to religious persons is unfair as everyone has some kind of belief. Atheism is still a belief. This is exactly what the First Amendment says. It's unconstitutional to favor atheists for political positions. Thus the government will be influenced by religion, but it is not being run by the leaders of a specific church. Instead, the church and state are separated, and the government is run by many representatives that typically have different beliefs. Together they decide on how to use the political power.

[Guest CharlieRose]

Separation of church and state means that the government cannot make any laws requiring you to go to a certain church and it cannot make any laws that do not let you go to church. Essentially, the political power remains with the government, not the church.

This is not the separation of religion and state. This is impossible, as it would require a complete purge of religion.

You know, April, I've never really thought of it that way, but even as someone who believes religion has no place in lawmaking, that's very true. Religious people tend to think of all of their morals and convictions as coming from their religion, and so every decision they make is a religious decision.

It just comes out more on issues like homosexuality because there's no logical or secular reason to oppose homosexuality. Everyone pretty much agrees murder is wrong no matter what their religion, but when it comes to homosexuality that's definitely not so. There are many people whose religion tells them to side against homosexuality and because every other decision they've made comes from religion, this one does too. It's just that no one minded when they were saying, "Thou shalt not kill." So the only real way to get people to stop relying on religion to make moral decisions (as moral decisions factor into lawmaking) would be to get people to stop relying on religion. (Which I wouldn't advocate 'cause it would violate religious freedom and all that.)

[Guest Eth]

You know... I actually do have a problem with religious people getting into certain positions. In fact I was thinking about that just earlier. I thought, you know, what if I was on trial for something and the judge and jury were religious. Honestly, I would be VERY uncomfortable, because as April said - everything; including religion - has an impact on people's 'morals' and the decisions they tend to make.

I for one, would feel comfortable with a judge and jury composed of religious people as much as I would feel comfortable with a judge and jury composed of extreme schizophrenics in straight jackets just out of the hospital. Actually, I'd feel less comfortable with the religious people because they're not in the jackets.

I have a respect for religious people just as I have a respect for genuinely mentally ill people who are in their horrible situations like the schizophrenics in hospitals and straight jackets like I just described. I don't hate them... I don't want to hurt them, nor do I want to laugh or immaturely make fun of them. But I simply cannot and will not trust a thought system that follows no true logical pattern, takes things totally for granted and never fully questions them, (in some cases) lives in constant fear of eternal damnation thus motivating their actions, wants to go to a magical eternity in heaven thus further motivating their actions, and believes in things that are fantastical and also cannot be proven.

Really, I see all these quotes people throw around as making as much sense as they would if you replace "God" with "Fairies" or something of that nature.

Leprechauns say that being gay is an abomination in Small Business 101.

Dragons treasure life and would never sanction abortions.

If you just believe in Hercules you will see Olympus on your deathbed.

Chuck Norris has always existed and will always exist. We should not question how this happened for we know it is true because Kung Fu for Dummies tells us so.

If Aliens would have wanted us to live in a permissive society they would have given us Ten Suggestions and not Ten Commandments.

If you are religious and then think about it from that perspective that I have just presented; reading all of the edited quotes above... Would you really want anyone who honestly, whole-heartedly believes in those things to be doing the following?

-Voting for the Presidency, Congress, and other elected officials

-Supporting/opposing bills concerning the legal rights of individuals including minorities

-Convincing other people the 'fairies' have spoken to them and they know what they want

-Being any sort of political figure and voting on/passing bills/laws concerning all of us

-Being a judge or juror and passing judgement on accused criminals

-Being a school teacher or principle or operating an entire school based on those principles

-Being a doctor; ESPECIALLY a mental health professional

-Going to other countries and teaching the poor over there that their beliefs are right while essentially bribing them with money/resources

-Making speeches and statements on television to a large number of viewers and actually being taken seriously

And so much more that actually is done here. Heck, religious people even have access to extra rights in the United States. Marriage is a step up from a Civil Union almost everywhere ... and since marriage is a religious institution it's pretty unfair to Atheist/Agnostic/Mixed religion couples who might want to opt not to have one.

Those quotes above may seem ridiculous. Extremely laughable, even. Something you would shake your head off and just walk away from. But really, REALLY think about it, as if it were all something people really, truly believed in the world and they were doing all of the things in the above list. Wouldn't that be terrifying? Doesn't that seem, y'know... insane?

If you're religious, tell me one thing that makes these quotes more sane than the above ones:

God says that being gay is an abomination in The Holy Bible, Genesis 19, Leviticus 18:22, 24, Leviticus 20:13, Deuteronomy 23:17-18, 1 Kings 14:22, 24, 1 Kings 14:22, 24, 1 Kings 15:11-12, 1 Kings 22:42-46, 2 Kings 23:3, 7, Romans 1:26-27, and more passages as well.

God treasures life and would never sanction abortions.

If you just believe in Jesus the Christ you will see the gates of heaven on your deathbed.

God has always existed and will always exist. We should not question how this happened for we know it is true because The Holy Bible tells us so.

If God would have wanted us to live in a permissive society He would have given us Ten Suggestions and not Ten Commandments.

The only difference is that more people believe in the God quotes, and that there's some ancient book written by bronze age tribesmen about it. There is nothing substantial that holds up to scrutiny, testing, study or logic about religion. The fact that more people believe in it doesn't make it more sane, it makes it more terrifying. More deadly.

I for one, would most certainly like to see a REAL separation of religion and politics and similar matters. I find it to be absolutely unacceptable that in politics, if someone were to oppose a bill on gay marriage or abortions for example, because fairies told them to, they'd be laughed at; but when they say "God" tells them to, they're taken seriously and even supported. There is something seriously wrong with this picture.

Believe what you want to believe but the second it effects these sorts of things, it is a problem. Unfortunately, it's almost guaranteed to effect these things, because it becomes the very core of a person's morality and judgement and then they start using it as the foundation for all of their decisions, sometimes in minor ways and sometimes in major ways. If religion didn't cause harm there'd be nothing wrong with this, but it does. I think it's pretty comparable to taking drugs that impair one's ability to use good judgement; you really, truly, honestly believe that totally illogical actions are logical and correct, no matter how many obvious facts are pointed out to the contrary. Religion can be and in general is very, very damaging to society and humanity as a whole. I can find a million examples of absolutely absurd and crazy things that we as a species have done because of religion but I cannot find any example that tells me why we should, without a doubt, follow religion.

A sign I saw on a board outside a Church, of all places:

"Logic is faith's most powerful enemy."

[Guest julia_d]

If religion was truth there would be only one.. I think that answers your dilema Eth

With more than one "absolute truth" then it raises the serious question of which "absolute truth" is the right one.. I would contend that in reality it is none of them... that they are all equally false.

as for separation of church and state.. that's a blatant lie as well. Here the state says a "civil union" is exactly the same under the law as "marriage" .. but it isn't.. starting with it's name and where it can be conducted. IF it is exactly the same legal status as marriage them why not just call it that and have done with it?.. oh yes.. the church.. which demands a "marriage" can only be between a man and a woman.. I put it back to them.. define either. I'm a woman.. all my id says female.. my title on all my state issued documents is miss.. where am I not a woman? .. because the church which I am not a member of.. have never been affiliated with in any way (not baptised me.. no way) demands I be seen as something other than all the laws of my land see me as. I don't remember ever electing the church, do you?

[Guest Eth]

I don't remember ever electing the church, do you?

Quoted for truth.

[Guest April63]

I for one, would most certainly like to see a REAL separation of religion and politics and similar matters. I find it to be absolutely unacceptable that in politics, if someone were to oppose a bill on gay marriage or abortions for example, because fairies told them to, they'd be laughed at; but when they say "God" tells them to, they're taken seriously and even supported. There is something seriously wrong with this picture.

You CANNOT have separation of religion and state! Even if only atheists were allowed in government, there is no separation. Atheism is a religious option. Just like any other religion, it is a spiritual belief. It may deny the existence of spirits and may deny the existence of God, but it is still a spiritual belief. Therefore, you will still have religion and state together. Not only that, you would have huge discrimination against anyone of any other belief. I would prefer to have all the various religions represented in government. That way you don't have any discrimination.

[Guest i is Sam :-)]

Sorry but atheism is NOT a spiritual belief! It may get lumped in with it on forms and such but it has nothing to do with faith or belief.

Atheism is a rational and logical conclusion drawn from available data, observed through the scientific method. We do not "believe" in science, science is the test of observed truths, science allows for conclusion to be amended as new data is made available.

Atheism differs from agnosticism, in the decision by that person to draw a reasonable comclusion based on not having absolutely all available data.

All other faiths are about ignoring proven facts in order to preserve a belief, this is why it's dangerous. When can prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that people are born homosexual, and people of faith will still choose to believe otherwise.

[Guest April63]

Sorry but atheism is NOT a spiritual belief! It may get lumped in with it on forms and such but it has nothing to do with faith or belief.

Atheism is a rational and logical conclusion drawn from available data, observed through the scientific method. We do not "believe" in science, science is the test of observed truths, science allows for conclusion to be amended as new data is made available.

Atheism differs from agnosticism, in the decision by that person to draw a reasonable comclusion based on not having absolutely all available data.

All other faiths are about ignoring proven facts in order to preserve a belief, this is why it's dangerous. When can prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that people are born homosexual, and people of faith will still choose to believe otherwise.

Atheism is spiritual as it concerns the nature of our spirits (or lack of spirits).

Atheism is rational from the scientific method? Prove God doesn't exist. You can't. So it's just like any other religion.

Religions don't even focus on homosexuality. It's nowhere in the central doctrines, so arguing that religion isn't true based on that single idea is kinda pointless.

[Guest CharlieRose]

Ok, I love debates like this, but I'm seeing the language and content getting kinda inflammatory. Everyone take a deep breath, and remember what this site is for. (ie. Not debating God's existence or which spiritual beliefs/non-beliefs are best)

Thanks.

[Guest i is Sam :-)]

Gee I dunno possibly as this is a conversation on a web forum, I was drawing a single and somewhat related to us example and in fact not defining or explaining something by one single idea or thought.

I suppose I assumed that would be obvious, but possibly that's not a religious way of thinking.

You either completely mis-understood what I said, or chose to ignore it.

We don't need to prove god doesn't exist.

We can draw a reasonable conclusion based on an extrapolated probability. that data is formed from observation of the world around us, real things we can touch and see and test. rules that we know are fundamentally and universally true such as mathematics and atomic structure.

we start from the same position, agnostics say they aren't sure. We say that in all reasonable likelihood (99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%) god doesn't exist.

You say he does.

We have data

You have stories and your imagination.

Believing that there is no spirit does not concern spirits - at least not to us. How much daily thought do you give to the idea that you don't believe that there is a leprechaun, wearing a red hat, flying a microscopic spaceship, inside your left eye?

Oh and not part of central doctrine? that's great then, personally I consider any of the many things the bible says people should be killed for, to be of some concern.