Who Would Be Offended?

[Michelle 2010]

I was picking up a computor monitor at a major big box electronics store yesterday and one of the people behind the pickup counter and at the tech area was a 20 something with beautiful face and long brown ponytail, triple gold earrings on both sides, and a very quiet almost demure attitude. The person had the unisex store outfit on with tiny A- breasts visible but no bra. I would have only admired the person as a pretty girl except for the fact he/she had a dark frontal chin patch of hair @ 1 1/2 inch square... clearly not what any Gender female would let grow! Upon a closer look I realized masculine hips and lack of a narrower waist.

The person was either a pretty guy or a trans m2f. The look was so female I can't believe it was just a hetero male. As curious, in a friendly way, as I was, I decided to mind my own business. My question here is...would you transitioning M2Fs or F2Ms be offended in the work place or socially if someone asked if you were trans? If they asked in a friendly, simply curious way? With no judgement? Its easy to say its no ones business but if transitioning in a public business area that may be unrealistic, right? So... If not being critical of you, how would you respond?

Thanks

Michelle

[Guest Donna Jean]

.

I would personally be offended....I would never out a trans person if I suspected or even knew their status...

It could hurt them deeply to be "made" if they thought they passed 100%....

Even with me being Trans....it doesn't necessarily lessen the blow to them to know that they don't pass and can be clocked....

My .02

Donna Jean

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Hard set protocol with transpeople, NEVER approach a possible transperson.

Its extremely hard not to sometimes, but just don't do it.

Sometimes a little smile will pass between you two - nothing else.

Lizzy

[Guest John Chiv]

Adding my two cents to what Dee Jay said so here's my four cents. Even though I am out and very open, and wouldn't mind, you wouldn't know that because I would be a stranger and at work, I am not FTM John, I am simply John. You seem like a very polite and considerate person so I can't imagine you offending anyone

[Paula ult]

The local group i go to has a policy, if you see someone from the group and they are in male mode do not call them by their female name, likewise if they are in female mode do not call them by their male name, in other words do not out them.

One person in my bowling league i suspect of being trans, if she is she transitioned many years ago and is stealth, she was one of the first people i told and was really supportive from the start, even offering to come with me to get fitted for a bra, even though i only knew her for a few weeks, i would never ask her and risk the friendship we have developed over the last 3 years.

Paula

[Guest Lacey Lynne]

Personally, I would not be offended in the least if somebody approached me with any such question. Of course, that's just me.

However, in situations like you describe here, I'd obey protocol and say nothing and do nothing other than simply treat them like a person. Period.

However, an attractive person IS an attractive person, so I'd have to sneak furtive glances at them in wistful admiration.

Lacey

[JJ]

I saw a transwoman a few of months after I realized I was trans. And I wanted to talk to her so badly that I ached with it because i had never spoken to a transperson in real life. But I didn;t even catch her eye.I wasn't transitioning then and any look exchanged could have taken that lovely glow from her face and robbed her of that confident smile. So she walked by with her handsome friend without a thought to the person who had just walked by.

I've seen her another time too. And did the same. Maybe it would be okay-but I will never know. Because there is that unwritten but ironclad rule that I am so glad others here taught me. And in a way I was paying it forward to that day when someone makes me some day when I am just being me and being happy and walks on by

[Michelle 2010]

Well this certainly is a good place to clarify these issues. In my support group all topics are open and on the table but this has never come up either in person or that I've seen at LP.. I suppose it is an obvious answer to many and yet it may be good for others in addition me to see the responses here. We have had a couple of m2f's wonder if they had been made at work and were being hit on by "admirers" or if they were simply being hit upon by men because they were seen as attractive women. I guess that type issue always has the potential to pop up. I have developed friendships within my group and with some SO's that are becoming social outside of the meeting. I suppose that gives me a comfort level that shouldn't be generalized to strangers...

I remember 10 years ago or so before I was anywhere near out, there were one or two trans ladies that I would see grocery shopping in my neighborhood. Clearly, it would have been highly offensive and inappropriate to bring it up. In the case at the store yesterday though, I think the goatee or "patch" is what made my head spin and got me thinking about this. I guess some questions are left unanswered.

Lastly, a group member presents at schools around the state and refers to interactions with the "curious" public as falling in two categories: One is to ignore the gawker, but the second is what she refers to as a "teachable moment". She and friend will decide if the person or persons seem genuinely curious or are playing God and being judgemental. If curious, they will take the time to talk to the curious and ask if they have any questions. Often the question will be "we were wondering if you are women?" The answer is " yes, we have always been women, but it is only in the last few years that our bodies were able to match who we are". This can open a interesting and educational conversation... Clearly it doesn't happen every day but that atitude has been very important for me to get comfortable with coming out, both here at LP and with friends. She is totally ok with who she is and that has inspired me to try to be ok with who I am... As we all know, the trans journey is rarely an easy path. . So inspiring role models are important both here, among you folks, and for those of us lucky enough to have them, in our hometown lives.

Best wishes

Michelle

[Guest Colm]

I feel like it's not as much an offensive thing as one that feels inappropriate/wrong/awkward. Unless they bring it up, I deffo wouldn't go there.

[Guest ~Brenda~]

Honey, I know what you mean, and I know you mean well. I too have encountered complete strangers who are clearly transgendered. You want to say "hey... I recognize you... you are like me", but you cannot. Even though the possible connection and bond could be life changing, the reality is that you would be outing someone who is not ready to be outed. In fact, we are never to out someone. Outing is for those who will out themselves and themselves alone.

Even worse, is the possibility of outing someone who is completely transitioned and you just read them saying.. I know you are transgendered... crushing.

With all of that said, there is a silent communication. You know what I mean.

Brenda

[Sally]

I would like to add that while some might not be offended most would and that is why the protocol is to not out anyone because it is up to them who they want to know about them.

I would prefer that no one outs me, I can do that when necessary.

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest ChloëC]

And, you know, that's why there is this wonderful place called Laura's Playground, and we can be 'out' to each other and welcome it and be thankful for it, and there are all the support groups available where we can do the same, and learn and share.

Sure, it'd be great if there were some kind of secret 'handshake' or some way of saying 'hi, I'm one, also, and I know what it's like, and I'll always try to be there for anyone who needs someone, because no one ever needs to be alone.' But, there isn't. And maybe we miss a lot of connections because of that. Yet, everyone also deserves the respect to be who they are and what they want to be, and if being left alone is part of that, who am I do go against those wishes.

I guess in some ways, it depends on who and what we want to be. Can there come a time when some here will want to just be who they really are, and not need or want to be recognized as anything different? Can there come a time, when those here won't look at somebody and say, 'aha', but look at somebody and say ' ', because we look at most people and say ' '.(yes, nothing, and no hiddden words here).

Shouldn't that be a goal, too?

Hugz

Chloë

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora Michelle,

It's possible this person could have been 'intersexed' or a gender queer...In which case s/he might have taken offence and tell you to F off and mind your own business...

The easiest way to view all this is ask yourself "Would I be comfortable if someone asked me about my gender identity in a public place?" "How would you feel???"

Metta Zenda

[Guest miss kindheart]

I wouldn't let it bother me

It takes allot more than that to offend me

vanna

[Guest ChloëC]

I'm going to run off on a slight tangant here (because that's the way I am, lol). I've been thinking a lot about this thread (thank you so much, Michelle for starting it!!!), and what it all means to me. And this is part of why I love Laura's Playground, because it at times forces me to work through some of my thoughts and preconceptions and attitudes and maybe look a litte deeper and figure out exactly why I am like I am. So this is not aimed at anyone here, except me, but I want to go there, so bear with me.

I keep my eyes really open when I'm in public, especially looking at women, because I wonder about how they look, how they act, how they are (and you know something? I have very, very, very seldom seen a woman I didn't find attractive in some manner. I wonder, if that's because of what I've wanted to be, how can I find not find that in others, if I am to believe I am too!?! oh and this goes for you mtf's here, too). And I wonder if I ever let my dream come true, could I pick all that up and be all that. But in looking, I believe I've 'made' at least two transgendered mtf's (often I see a lot of the same 'mannerisms' that I know I have when en femme, and I've seen the same in pictures of cd/tg models!). There have been more possibilities, but they were ones not trying as hard to pass, I think anyway, and this is part of what I'm ruminating about.

When I do 'make' someone like that, I'm now wondering, is it more about them...or more about me. Why do I need to do that, what difference does it make in the long run? Part of it is, I suspect, what I hinted at above - omg, there's someone else, I'm not alone. I wish I could run up to them and give them a big hug and say, thank you, thank you, I can not tell you how wonderful I feel because you are who you are. It's sort of a validation for me, I guess.

Yet, here's the interesting part, I have Skyped someone here, I've phoned someone else here...and it's not the same at all. Totally different feelings. And why is that? Partly maybe because it's not in public and the ones I see are in public and they're doing something I wish I could do, in public. Partly, maybe, because the two here are far too known to me.

But I don't fully understand it, and now I'm going to spend a good deal of time thinking more about it, and especially the why. So, why do I have this need to say, aha? I will tell you, I'm not going to stop watching, but I am going to work extremely hard to stop saying aha and start saying to myself, interesting hair style, I wonder if that would work, cute clothes, I might want to consider that. Oh, that lipstick is just a little off, I think a slightly lighter shade would work better.

And maybe it's time, too, because I have received so much validation here, I cannot begin to catalog it all. I don't really need any more. I just need to keep working on me incorporating all that I've been blessed to receive from all of you. And I just want to say, if I haven't already, Thanks.

Hugz

Chloë

[Guest Elizabeth K]

More on this

Well, I lived in a smaller college town, although there were 15 thousands students (about the size of the town - grin). We had a hugely successful women's basketball team, and a very successful women's volleyball team. I am just under 6'-2" and some of those women would tower over me. It showed me my height problem in transitioning would probably not be a problem after all. And it wasn't.

But some of those athletic girls were somewhat 'mannish' for whatever reasons. I always remember that. Imagine if I had gone up to one and asked if they were transgendered? YIKES

And there were students we would see in restaurants and stores I just knew were trans - FTM especially. But I knew the protocol even back then. I left them to themselves.

Now in New Orleans, I see one or two different transpeople, a month... mostly older MTF, and the same protocol applies. They sometime meet me eye to eye, we both smile, and that's it. It's a special kind of smile, you will know it when it happens to you. A kind of 'we did it, didn't we!!"

And we can be wrong. What we thought was an obvious TMAN waited on us at the garden center in Lowe's. "He" had a buzz cut and ear plugs. "He" had tattoos everywhere. 'His" clothes were men's, and Dee Jay and I looked at each other. We see 5 or 6 people like this at our LGBTQ trans support meetings. Was this a TMan? Then Dee Jay said if 'he' is - 'she' is pregnant. We decided it was a probable case of androgynous living, fairly common in the younger generation. BUT we won't ever know one way or another. It is their life, none of our business.

So I suppose I would be okay if approached by another TGirl. I am not really stealth and hiding away - I an rather trying to be 'invisible' - just another woman in line at the grocery store.

A TGuy approaching might give me a start. I would think I was doing something wrong. But approached by complete stranger that was not trans? I would be offended and deny it.

Now don't get me wrong. When I get to know a person, even casually, and if they would ask? I would probably explain. But it hasn't happened that way.

BUT

Some are stealth. For us to recognize and acknowledge them? SHATTERING DISAPPOINTMENT!

Just don't do it.

My opinion

Lizzy

[Michelle 2010]

This really is facinating stuff, ya know. And I'm glad it has provoked thought, mine included. When I used to see a trans person years ago, say in my 20's, and I knew i was a crossdresser, there was frightened fascination because I was wondered if it could ever be me, or if they were only "distant cousins"...pretty weird huh? Three days ago I had lunch with my transitioning/transitioned friends, and still wonder where in the spectrum I may land... but it is no longer frightened fascination involved, it is mutual respect of people sharing an experience.

chloe's wistful comment that we know but can't acknowledge, and therefore lose a shared bond with a brother or sister is touching and a little sad though totally realistic and understandable (I guess that is what support groups are for, right?)

Over the years, I've occasionally thought back to a section of the book Interview with a Vampire, where Louis (I think) runs into his first Vampire on the street and is stunned to realize there are others like him. I have had that experience before. Please don't mistake my metaphor for my isolation as an opinion that T people are vampires!!! What I mean is I've always known I was different, alone in my differentness and that there were others like me "around" but never encountered them. Never did Triess, nothing... No contact. So reaching out last year was a pretty big deal. Kinda opened up a new world, ya know? I guess its a little like the sunlight hitting the spirit and having it open up somewhat.

Nevertheless, Lizzy describes walkng the street of Nawlins' (a coincident to Louis and Lesat? maybe,,,) and seeing but not greeting other Trans people. I get the "we made it didn't we?" thing, its a perilous voyage, after all. And I learned in my second support meeting that many of us want nothing more than to be the man or woman we were meant to be. And many of those people leave the trans support group simply because Trans is in the rear view mirror, They Made It!!! Why keep looking back to the painful part...Who would want to be reminded of that...

So , yeah, respecting others privacy is important (whether trans or anything else).

Btw, Vanna, Nice, Short, Succinct...

Best wishes to all

Michelle

[Guest TigerFoxMatt]

I doubt I'd be offended, mostly because I've always wanted to meet another transperson in real life, but I'd never out someone. It would be awkward for both parties, and there's another problem that could arise. If the person is in fact not trans, you could look like a jerk or worse out yourself accidentally. My guess is that if the person doesn't bring it up themselves, it's best not to ask. Especially if you don't know them well.

[Guest Krisina]

I wouldn't want to know I had been read. People in the trans community look for these details but when you have worked so very hard to live your life as your true self that would feel bad. I wouldn't talk ter her about it, only appreciate how far she has come.

Krisina

[Guest BaybiiB3ll]

I would wouldn't be offended unless i felt the person should know better, but so many non-trans people don't know what is and isn't appropriate in these situations (although you would think they could figure it out..) Anyways I am unsure how i would respond actually, although i know inside i would be hurt, scared, sad, anxious, defensive, ect. I present as Female, so someone being able to tell that i am trans would be a blow to my self esteem. I would feel devastated and wonder if everyone else knew, and what about me gave it away. But maybe i would just ignore the person or pretend that I spoke only chinese xD.

[Guest Robin Winter]

I understand where you're coming from. It's happened to me several times now, which surprises me. I never in my life saw anyone I thought was trans until I "joined the community" as it were. I don't think it's because I never saw anyone, I just didn't know what to look for. The few times it's happened to me, the ladies were very pretty. I'm still not certain they were trans-women, but there were certain things that make me believe they were, things I would never look for if I weren't trans myself. So I struggled with it the same as you, but in the end I knew there would be no adequate way for me to explain that to anyone but another trans person, they passed 100%, and I wouldn't want to risk upsetting anyone. Even though I'm not living full time, I think I would probably be upset if I knew I got clocked when I finally am.

[Guest BaybiiB3ll]

Yeah i agree with you Shilo (is that correct)? I am trans myself and therefore can identify another trans by the smallest things that no one else would probably notice. But, out of respect for the other person, i would probably never ask that question. Going through the same thing doesn't give me the right make light of their biggest secret. Like me, they don't want it figured out, to why would i let them know i did? Why not instead give them a little compliment about something they did well. Maybe it will make them smile and their day brighter.. i know it would for me =]

Jasmine

[Guest Colm]

A slight variant on this question - what about if this person is a friend of yours? Not a close friend particularly, but more than just an acquaintance. Does that change what you would do?

[Guest Donna Jean]

A slight variant on this question - what about if this person is a friend of yours? Not a close friend particularly, but more than just an acquaintance. Does that change what you would do?

Not sure of the question, Hon.....

If they were a friend and I already knew and they knew I knew....no reason not to say "Hi"....

If they didn't think I knew.....I'd keep quiet and maybe approach them with a phone call....

If I didn't recognize them as a friend, but I did notice they were Trans....mouth shut...

So, I still wouldn't out them.....friend or not...

But, I'd still use discretion....

Dee Jay

[Guest ~Sammi~]

I think that for a lot of people offended isnt the right emotion. I think that most TS people in the community would be more hurt and devastated that they were read so easily after the hard work and long yards that they have putting into appearing in public. Me personally? I think everyone here knows me well enough to know by know that I'd stand there and start up an indepth animated conversation with anyone that asked me, but thats just the way I am. Having been so active in the rather large TS community here over the years I am widely known and know most of the Trans women in Perth in one way or another, having spent a few years setting up and running the only support group here in Perth I was privileged enough to meet many of our sisters. I run into many of these women (and a few men) regularly in the community and in their work places and even a few whom I havent met, while we may start a conversation, because of that unwritten rule I would NEVER initiate a conversation regarding trans issues or to ask her (them) if they were trans, if they do thats a different matter, but I wouldnt expect them to because of that unwritten rule. Private is another matter, but in public.....NOOOOO! Things are massively different for Trans people in Australia, we have incredible anti-discrimination laws in almost all states for the working sector and general laws and statutes that protect us in general life, violence against the trans community is VERY small (it does happen but not often) and we have clawed and gouged a divot in society for ourselves. People seem also to be more educated around our community here and are definitely willing to learn more. Ive walked into my fair share of bogan (Aust version of a redneck) pubs in Australia, virtually been attacked and then in the end had most of them walk me to the local train station coz "it was a dangerous area". People WANT to learn and understand, even the worst of society although they may not admit it. Even those that refuse to accept our community will at least take the time to read or listen to any information if given the right circumstances......but anyway I digress.......

No. The bottom line is you never out someone in public or at their place of work....for whatever reason, if only for being polite and understanding

Sammi