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Guest Naoki

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Guest Naoki

Hi everyone,

I thought it would be a good idea to start this thread so we can get to know each other better. Many of us have very different experiences of what it is like to be androgynous/androgyne and it would be nice to share our experiences.

And of course, I will begin with introducing myself:

I am Naoki, one of the chat moderators.

I identify more as third gender than andro because I am neither male for female. Third gender, to me, implies a totally separate gender role in society, as the case used to be in some older cultures. I don't like to be referred to as "both male and female".

For my entire life, I knew I was different from everyone else in many ways. Unfortunately, I tried to cover up these differences and live as a cis-gendered woman. I fought against any "un-feminine" traits and thoughts. This led to a lot of unhappiness as well as 2 divorces. After my last divorce, I did a lot of soul searching and decided to embrace who I am. I took testosterone for 9 months and am now in the body I was always meant to have. Now, at 30 years old, I am happier than I've ever been in the past.

My outward expression is mostly femme, but I have days where it is mixed, or quite masculine.

Nice to meet you all. Looking forward to reading your stories.

Cheers,

Naoki

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KieranD

I'm Kieran. I am gender queer and default as male in the cis world. I've been on testosterone for 9 months, still seen as a masculine woman unfortunately. Um...been transitioning/living as myself for a few years...maybe 8? It's been rough, not what I was expecting my transition to be.

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Guest Roux

Excellent idea, Naoki--and it's nice to meet you. =)

If it isn't going to distract from the intention of the thread, I'd love to hear more about your gender role in society. I know a very little about certain tribal cultures' perceptions of a third gender, and always wanted to learn more about how third gender people feel they are or should ideally be perceived in modern, non-tribal societies. (Although I probably only missed discussion of it here in the forums. I'll have to do a bit of digging, I think!)

Unfortunately, I tried to cover up these differences and live as a cis-gendered woman. I fought against any "un-feminine" traits and thoughts. This led to a lot of unhappiness as well as 2 divorces. After my last divorce, I did a lot of soul searching and decided to embrace who I am. I took testosterone for 9 months and am now in the body I was always meant to have. Now, at 30 years old, I am happier than I've ever been in the past.

Your story sounds pretty familiar to me, although I can't imagine having to live through two divorces and all of the other heartache you must have gone through. Congrats on starting T and finally having the right body! I'm glad that you've had such a good resolution.

Like you, I always felt different, and I did my best to stifle the feeling by throwing myself into the appearance of a cis-woman. Just after college and right before grad school, my uneasiness developed into body dysmorphic disorder. After a year and a half (and several aborted attempts) I joined the university's lgbtqia social group, where I met a friendly transwoman. By that time I'd had three transgender friends online for several years, but for some reason it wasn't until I met this woman in person that I realized my BDD was gender related. I felt like a complete idiot.

So after a few months I adopted a male name, started to see a gender therapist, and began to figure out the right body and presentation for me. My ideal body would be intersex, and predominantly male; my face and figure would be read as a feminine male, and I'd be able to pass as either male or female. I prefer male pronouns and my assumed male name, but usually present as female and don't bother asking people outside of my group of friends to use male pronouns.

I still struggle with appearance-related social anxiety, and still avoid looking at my body, but I think I can safely say I've gotten over the BDD. And equally wonderful: I met my fiance at that lgbtqia social group, and he completely accepts and supports my gender stuff. I consider myself remarkably lucky, overall!

Hopefully things will smooth out for you, Kieran, and the T will kick into overdrive soon. My fingers are crossed.

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Guest Naoki

Roux,

Our situations are indeed very similar!

I also suffered from BDD for many years. While a great deal of mine was gender related, unfortunately it hasn't completely disappeared, though it has lessened in overall severity. :)

Your ideal body and mine sound similar. I also wanted to be similar to intersex with a more masculine jawline and deeper voice and I achieved all of those things with T. My close friends use male pronouns, but I don't bother with or care what anyone else calls me. Mostly I wear femme clothing, but I don't really see it as feminine - it just is what it is!

I hope you are able to get where you want to be. Are you going to start T anytime soon?

As far as gender roles go, my role has been that of a "third perspective". I am able to look at things from a different point of view than either men or women. I don't have any desire to take part in procreation or "family" things, including very strictly defined male or female gender roles. I see myself as an observer, adviser, and in some respects a recorder of history. I also feel a drive to create beauty in many forms and a DUTY to maintain art/culture in the world. Maybe I will think on this and write a more detailed response later on. It's a complex issue and I need to separate what comes from my gender identity vs. what comes from my personality.

Naoki

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Guest Alder

Ello, Even though I've been here for a smidge of time, still fun to introduce yourself formally!

I'm Alder, a name I go by in person and just about everywhere online (sometimes with "tree" or "wiki" added to the end). I came to realize a lot of my anger towards myself was due to me trying to fit into the role of a cis-female shortly after my daughter was born. Partially due to having to now conform to the role of mother, which admittedly I feel more paternal than maternal as well as due to the marriage I am now divorced from. All of that piled onto my already shakey grasp on being a cis-female until I finally snapped and would end up in tears while at work over my gender. Now that I'm away from the marriage and I'm able to embrace the idea that I'm /not/ female life has been getting easier and harder in different points; while I'm no longer caged by trying to be something I'm not, I have the confusion of "and what does this mean, being androngynous?"

I've always been labelled a 'tomboy' which I was able to hide behind for a good amount of time, but its not really the right label.. ya know? I've never understood the binary roles from my earliest memories I'd end up in tears or become angry when told I couldn't do something because I was a girl, or given lighter work than the boys weaker than me when I didn't see the difference between me and the boys. But I'm starting to ramble!

My 'ideal' form would be an effeminate male, like as been said able to pass as both genders depending on my mood and I have contemplated hormone therapy at times, since I already have a decent amount of testosterone in my system due to my genetics (thanks to my awesome mama I can already grow the mustache of a 16yr old boy! She has me beat with the full beard and mustache capabilities though~). As for the role I take? I'm the observant sort. Most of my older friends I don't think believe me when I "came out" .. or have been joking that I'm a skinny gay boy in a fat chicks body for years already. So I kind of yet again get pegged as a 'tom boy' .... which hurts at times, a lot actually... but it's a role I'm so used to that i'm not sure how to tell people otherwise.

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Guest Micha

Brilliant idea!

I am Micha (I always hear it as Mee-kah in my head, but My-kah is cool too). How do you do. ^_^

I too have felt akward, uncomfortable and out of place trying to abide by binary rules, and since puberty I've been depressed without ever knowing why. Over a year ago I learned there was a word for what I felt, transgender. . . the search that then ensued lead me here. At first I was distressed, because it seemed transgeneder meant transexual (due I think to lack of active posting by anyone genderqueer in relation to the men and women here), and that I simpley was not. When I read the description of androgyny I was so relieved, like a kindred feeling, all of a sudden I realized I am not alone, there really are people somewhat like me. Then it was clear, transgender was more than what the binary system would allow for, and that's where I could fit in and be myself. I didn't rid myself of the depression, but I did feel loads better about myself after that.

The past year has been spent trying to figure out what androgyny means to me, or more specificaly what my gender identy means, what I feel and what place it has in my life. I'm married with three children and one on the way. My wife knows how I feel about gender and that I identify as androgynous, and though she didn't reject it, I don't think she really understands what this means to me. In the darker places of my mind I feel she's just happy I'm not transexual and so everyting else is moot. Not a happy thought, and prolly not the case, but I wouldn't know.

So I'm still searching. A mix of male and female sounds about right, except for the fact that I can no longer define gender at all. Sex, sure. Your genitals make you one sex or another, but that does not define your identity, gender or otherwise. You should not conform to a standard based on what's between your legs. So what is gender then? I haven't the foggiest, and I'm not ruling out the possibility of being agendered. The idea of a third gender sparks my interest though, and certainly warrents a deeper investigation. I hope to learn so much more. . .

My ideal body would be sexless, no defining features at all, no penis, vagina or breasts. In the next 3 years, if my wife (Z) and I feel we're certain we're done having kids (I'm sure, she's not) then I get "fixed." I entertained the idea of getting rid of my testicles altogether (not just for gender identity, but because I'm so tired of them getting smooshed. . . it's painful and they are so very uncomfortable), I dunno if that's a realistic possibility or not, but I guess we'll see. I want to be prettier, and less jiggly and bulky, but also undefined by my body. I'm coming to terms with the likelihood that I'll never look how I want to, so my adventures in gender identity are more psychological. I'm trying to figure out what behaivours and reactions I have are from 20+ years of male conditioning, and what is really coming naturally. Tough task to be sure. Socially I am currently the home maker, unemployed and managing the kids, cleaning and cooking. My family thinks it's so amazing how I am with my family, but I don't see it as anything but what comes naturally. I dunno, but what they see and think means so little to me now.

I'm feeling a lot better about myself now, and I feel more confident in being true and honest about who I am. I openly share on my facebook page news and activist links regarding TBLG issues, and have posted androgyny and genderqueer as my interests. I haven't officially come out yet, save to two of my best friends (Z being one of them), however the door to my closet is open and anyone who cares to is welcome to come in. ;)

Naoki, Kieran , Roux, Alder, it's so wonderful to know you. ^_^ Thanx for being here, sincerely.

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Guest Naoki

I can relate so much to all of you. So glad to meet you!

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Guest Roux

Thanks for answering my awkward question, Naoki. As you said, it is a very complicated issue--and I, personally, am a complete idiot when I try to describe gender-related ideas. I'm glad you're better spoken than I am! What you described is rather similar to the few things I've learned about third gender people in various cultures, and I have to say that I love it. Silly as it sounds, I'll be hoping that you begin a third gender revolution here in the States. I'd carry a banner for you.

Also, here's hoping that your BDD does completely disappear! Glad it's not so overwhelming anymore, at least. =)

Are you going to start T anytime soon?

I've given that a lot of thought over the last year or two, and I've decided to go without hormones or surgery. My face is rather masculine already, as are my neck and shoulders. Thankfully, my chest is small and binds easily. T would only give me the aspects of masculinity that I don't want: more hair, and then (eventually) less hair in places I don't want to lose it. Well, I suppose it would help me redistribute some fat--that would be pretty awesome.

The changes I would make? I'd be several inches taller, with both male and female genitalia and a slightly different face. Medical science is going to have to grow in leaps and bounds--and surgeries become much more affordable!--before there are any treatments out there that would suit my needs. Oh well!

Alder: It must be so frustrating (on top of painful) to have your friends smack a tomboy label over you even after you came out to them. If and when you do try again, let us know.

Micha: I'm glad you pointed out how to pronounce your name (though you probably mentioned it somewhere before, huh?). I'd been wondering for a while, now. =)

It's lovely that your wife is generally so accepting of you--and I hope she continues to be as you find out more about yourself and (perhaps?) start moving toward expressing your gender/agender identity outwardly. Fingers crossed for you and your family as you make your official coming-out. And congrats on the soon-to-be new addition to your family, too!

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Guest alicewonders

Hello everyone,

not really sure how to start out so let me start by sayin that im a mom of two beautiful girls and in a very happy relationship with a very beautiful mtf trans. I guess i have always concidered myself as just simpely right in the middle of two worlds. I have at times been at confilct with myself as has everyone else here and it wasnt untill i got in my current relationship that i really took a look at myself and admitted this to myself. Though i have always found little ways to project how i was feeling and who i wanted to be on a day to day basis i kept it to a min. Be it a shirt i would sneak from my dad or brother to wear to school (always what i would think to be an acceptable color like yellow or light blue) to boys teenis shoes that would be black so they could be thought of as girls shoes to. But i guess i look at myself now as in between.. Some days i wake up and feel fem and some days i wake up and feel mas but not really ever feeling like i am truly one or the other. I cant be or feel completely like a woman metally. I think this is why i can so completly connect with my boyfriend because (i will refer to him as her from now on) she in many ways has the thoughts and feelings. But i feel that i am on the road now to a much happier life.

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Guest Alder

Ellow Alice ^^

It's nice to see new faces and I hope you'll feel at home here. Everyone I've encountered so far have been wonderful! It's good to hear you have someone who you can connect with so deeply; if only we all had someone like that around the world would be much less confusing!

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Guest alicewonders

Thank you... Yes it is a bit less confusing because we both spend our lives having to put on two different faces... The one everyone sees us as and then the one we truly are.. We support eachother in so many ways and know eachother so completly. It is the only time i have not felt as if i had "mental" probs as the same can be said for her... It is very liberating really.

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Guest Roux

Hello, Alice! I agree with Alder--between your girls and your girlfriend, it sounds like you're pretty blessed! Maybe someday soonish both you and your girlfriend will be able to toss the masks entirely and feel comfortable going about without them. =)

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Guest Micha

Hi hi Alice.

It is good to hear about happy relationships, it's a ray of sunlight. Both of you having the understanding you do about gender identity and whatnot, that's sure to help. How old are your children (if you don't mind telling, I understand if you're not comfortable with it)? They old enough to talk to about gender identity? Is it something you're worried about?

My kids are young, so I'm trying to avoid things that set men and women apart as far as behaivour and things. I don't know how I feel about talking to them about it, whether or not I'll say anything about myself. Your thoughts?

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Guest alicewonders

My kids are almost 12 and 11 so yes it is a big thing that i am trying to get them to understand. I think they are doing ok with it all and they have accepted the fact that not every one wants to look or be who they where born as. They had trouble at first with the gender part seening their dad as a guy and then now my girlfriend dressed up. Now it is something they have come to accept. Everyone is different in their own ways and i have put this in their brains that even they too, should be who they really are instead of trying to fit into something that they may not think they belong in. Hope that makes sence...

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Guest Micha

It does. I feel their youth may actually help with understanding. Less time for social conditioning to take hold, or some such thing. That's cause for hope. I seriously don't have a clue how to bring this up (or even if I should), but in raising them without gender expectations, I hope that they'll have more open minds than the rest of my family. Thx much! ^_^

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Guest alicewonders

You are welcome. And i hope that when or if you decide to bring it up that it all works out for you. Lots of luck to you.

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KieranD

My kids are young, so I'm trying to avoid things that set men and women apart as far as behaivour and things. I don't know how I feel about talking to them about it, whether or not I'll say anything about myself. Your thoughts?

There's nothing that sets men and women apart except identity.

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Guest CMM

Hey everyone.

I'm using my initials as my username, because my real name is pretty unique, and I haven't told many people about my Androgynous feelings yet. I don't want someone Googling my name and finding this and being outed so to speak.

I am 25 years old. I am anatomically a male, but I feel that I have more feminine traits than masculine. I am a caring and compassionate person. I have a natural maternal side when it comes to taking care of kids. When I'm in a relationship, (I'm attracted to females, usually tomboys.) I'm the one who wants to love and be loved. I cuddle so much I smother people to death. When I'm making love I want there to be a passion and bond there, not just emotionless sex.

While I have a more pronounced feminine side than most other males that I know, I also like guy things. I am an avid gamer, I like Rock n Roll, and I'm a professional wrestling fan.

I have been attracted to girls all my life. I wasn't the most attractive guy in my school years. I had bad acne, and my parents wouldn't let me wear long hair. This gave me poor self esteem, which kept me from finding the girl of my dreams. I was too shy because of the poor self image, but if I did work up enough courage I was rejected. Or I ended up with some skanky girls... but I digress.

Since I've moved out on my own, I have grown my hair out, and with that, came a somewhat boost of confidence. My long locks was and is my best feature. But as fate would have it, at the supposed young age of 25, it's starting to thin out. The thought of me losing my hair depresses me. I still haven't found the girl of my dreams yet. (I was emotionally ready to marry around 12 or 13.) I'm getting past my prime. I cry at night, just thinking of all the time that has passed and how I'm getting older and not staying as pretty as I'd like to be. I cry how people don't accept me and are intimidated by my overly masculine looks.

I see movies like Twilight (which I'm kind of a closet fan) and how they have Edward, and how young beautiful girls just fall gaga over. I want that. I want to be that pretty. I want to walk down the street and be chased around like I'm one of the Backstreet Boys.

Except for my hair, I'm not real happy with my appearance. My body is covered in hair. Thick dark hair. My skin isn't real smooth. Now the hair on top of my head is starting to recede and fall out.

I've been put on a quarter tablet of Proscar daily, and also use Minoxidil and Nioxin shampoo. It may be working, but it doesn't seem fast enough. I'm going to request a doctor to put me on a dosage of Spironolactone equivalent to someone undergoing a sex change. I'm hoping that will further restore my hair, kill my overactive labido and possibly slow body hair growth and make my skin smoother. I'm also going to see about getting body creams and lotions to help keep my skin smooth. When I can afford it, I'm hoping to get some sort of full body permanent hair removal.

From what I've read so far, I feel I relate to Micha pretty well. I'm glad to be hear and hope to interact with you all. Maybe we can all help one another.

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Guest CMM

I meant to post this in my last post, but it doesn't look like I can edit it.

This is a scale of where I stand Androgynously:

androgynyscale.png

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KieranD

I feel kinda weird in my inability to relate to you all. :(

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Guest Micha

Hello CMM and welcome! ^_^

I can see how we can relate, especially where it comes to hair. Total bummer. I'm trying not to let it get to me, because I truly feel it's not that big a deal, appearances and all. But there's a part of my psyche so deeply ingrained that is very unsettled by it. Not sure if I really am that concerned with it, or if that too is a part of conditioning. Whatever I guess, we shall see what we see.

:lol: I admit to liking the Twilight saga too, but I have a love hate relationship with the series. My main interest in any story will be characters, and I feel there's a ton of missed potential in these stories when it comes to their developement. I want sooooo much to see these characters as real, but Meyer puts so little effort into anyone who's not Bella, Edward or Jacob that it's really difficult to connect. And the sparkles. Ugh. erm. . . anyways. . .

I hope you find comfort, soloce and friendship among us, as well as finding your own personal comfort zone.

I feel kinda weird in my inability to relate to you all. :(

Don't feel bad. . . *HUGGLES* That just comes with being unique.

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Guest terra

Shapnin :D

My name here is Terra, but you can call me my given name Jo if you wish :)

I'm an androgynous person, with genderfluid as a more descriptive term. I feel a constant swirling duality inside myself, its pretty mad, i basically just have to take every day as it comes, but i can also push myself to feel differently if i want to.

my ideal form would be just a slight bit more femanine, just to express my inner self as feelin as two, still being definitely male but making others question more than just taking me at face value, does that make sense? sorry, its late, my brain is melting slightly.

i also am an artist. my medium is steel as i am an artist blacksmith, i like to express feelings through my art, not neciserally my own all the time. i generally do personal art to give myself a visual reprisentation of things, like how i am in the grand scheme of things and my place in the workings of the universe. how energy moves around us and through us and all sorts of crazy mumbo jumbo.

I have tried to stifle these feelings inthe past and the only thing that got me was frustrated, i'm glad that i realised whats up at a young age, as well as i am glad i know my calling, i feel that my purpose in life may be to express feeelngs and allow people to empathise with others, and i feel that i may do that with the work i do... maybe :)

For now, i'm happy to let things roll and let the chips fall where they may, take opertunities as they present themselves, instead of forcing things.

Its good to get a bit more aquainted with you all :)

Terra :D

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Guest Micha

:lol: Awesomeness n stuff Terra.

Artist blacksmith, that just sounds wicked. You got any pics of your work?

I am so glad to know you, sincerely. ^_^

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Guest terra

Haha, wow! I'm genuenly glad to count you as a friend :D

yeah i love blacksmithing and i love pwoplesreactions just as much lol. I'll see what i can do as far as pictures, i have some on deviant art :)

smiles all round :)

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