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Robin Winter

The bible encourages transition!

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Matthew 5:29-30

New King James Version (NKJV)

29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

hypocrite [ˈhɪpəkrɪt]n a person who pretends to be what he is not

[from Old French ipocrite, via Late Latin, from Greek hupokritēs one who plays a part, from hupokrinein to feign, from krinein to judge]

Job 13:16

New King James Version (NKJV)

16 He also shall be my salvation,

For a hypocrite could not come before Him.

Matthew 7:3-5

New King James Version (NKJV)

3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Job 27:8-9

New King James Version (NKJV)

8 For what is the hope of the hypocrite,

Though he may gain much,

If God takes away his life?

9 Will God hear his cry

When trouble comes upon him?

Clearly, it would be a sin to pretend to be something other than what you truly are. Better to cut it off!

:harhar:

This was meant in good fun, I respect everyone's beliefs as long as they're happy.

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Hmmmm...I never quite read it that way...

You should become a televangelist lol

hugs

Bobbi

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Makes more sense than some of the stuff quotes to condemn us.

Then there is the command to love your neighbor as yourself. I don't kow about you but till I transitioned my self love was anything but and my neighbor would have been in big trouble if I felt about her the way I did about myself. Or treated them the way I treated myself.

So transition means I can fulfill those commandments better too.

Oh and that one on the big ten list about bearing false witness. One way or another my whole life forced me to do that as well. Against my self.

This is actually kind of fun. And I am very spiritual by the way. Thanks Shilo.

Nice to see you back by the way, I had just been thinking about you a couple of days ago and hoping things were well.

Johnny

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I think that if a person were determined enough, they could make the bible appear to be saying just about anything. That being said, after giving it some more thought, and ignoring the part about hypocrisy (I purposely took that word out of context), I think there is something to be said for the passage in Matthew 5. Suicide, according to most Christian sects, will guarantee you go to hell. It's a sin you can not come back from. Knowing that, even if transitional steps might be seen as sinful, they could still be the best course of action for a Christian. It would be a decision strictly between themselves and God, though, and the individual would have to do some serious soul searching to determine if transition is really a "do-or-die" need for them. That's assuming the individual does in fact believe it to be sinful.

While I am no longer Christian, I still have a good knowledge of the bible and I of course still have my opinions. I don't personally believe that transsexuality, or even homosexuality, are truly condemned in the bible. The passages used to argue against it are among the ones most often different in the various translations. This page has some great information to support what I'm saying.

The bible says to beware of false prophets who twist the teachings of god and Jesus. The bible also says the path to heaven is straight and narrow. To my mind that sounds like it's meant to be uncomplicated, a simple, and yes easy path for those who have god truly in their hearts.

Romans 10:9

New King James Version (NKJV)

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Now, THAT sounds straight and narrow to me.

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Wow, I didn't mean this thread to get so preachy. Keep in mind I'm NOT christian, I'm not trying to convert anyone. At this point, though, this probably belongs in the Christianity forum.

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You missed one-- The Gospel Of John, Chapter 9, V 1-41. "Rabbi, who sinned that this man was born with (blindness) (gender issues)? "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, he was made this way for God to use for God's glory" It also goes on to say that Jesus healed the man HIS way, and not the way the local church leaders figured he should do it. Got the man who was healed kicked out of town, but JC made his point.

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You missed one-- The Gospel Of John, Chapter 9, V 1-41. "Rabbi, who sinned that this man was born with (blindness) (gender issues)? "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, he was made this way for God to use for God's glory" It also goes on to say that Jesus healed the man HIS way, and not the way the local church leaders figured he should do it. Got the man who was healed kicked out of town, but JC made his point.

I'm not aware of any translation that includes gender variance in that verse...however, if you just mean that because it's something we're born with and is interchangeable with blindness, then yes I agree with you, but to use it in an argument one would have to first prove that it's something we're born with. That's why I say it has to be a decision strictly between the individual and god, there are some people who will never accept that, regardless of the growing number of studies that support it.

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I'm not aware of any translation that includes gender variance in that verse...however, if you just mean that because it's something we're born with and is interchangeable with blindness, then yes I agree with you, but to use it in an argument one would have to first prove that it's something we're born with. That's why I say it has to be a decision strictly between the individual and god, there are some people who will never accept that, regardless of the growing number of studies that support it.

I think that Vicky was referring that they were similar. The other day when talking with some people about gender issues I referred to someone being born with a club foot could be corrected and everyone things it is great. Then why do they protest when someone with GID corrects the problem.?

This is a good thread and gives a lot to think about. While I am also not a Christian I think that JC was one of the masters who came to teach us to love and and how to live together. If Christianity was practiced the way JC taught it I would probably be a follower.

Mia

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You missed one-- The Gospel Of John, Chapter 9, V 1-41. "Rabbi, who sinned that this man was born with (blindness) (gender issues)? "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, he was made this way for God to use for God's glory" It also goes on to say that Jesus healed the man HIS way, and not the way the local church leaders figured he should do it. Got the man who was healed kicked out of town, but JC made his point.

I actually had to think about this a bit more because something about the comparison didn't sit right with me. I don't think that verse really applies here because Jesus was referring to the belief that his blindness was a punishment for some committed sin, whereas transsexualism in modern day is considered to be the sin itself, or at least transition is.

However, I do see what you're getting at and the passage does definitely have a place in this discussion. We are told in the bible that God will not allow us to suffer anything beyond our ability to cope, and since MANY clearly show that they can not cope without transition via suicide attempts, then that tells me that we are not meant to suffer with this and that god would not disapprove of something that is so clearly beyond our control, else he would not allow it to exist.

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Mia, funny you should bring that Clubfoot situation up, as that is exactly the same thing I've talked through in the past.

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It actually depends on the sect whether transition is considered a sin or not. I go to a Methodist church - and it is not considered a sin. I am out to my pastor but have chosen not to be open with the congregation because that would cause me even greater levels of family conflict since my parents go tot he same church.

Interesting thing about suicide being a sin - there once was a demographic with a similarly high rate of suicide to us. Early Christians committed suicide at an alarming rate in order to experience heaven. The church leaders saw this as a bit of a problem and decided that they would canonize a prohibition on suicide and that suicide would be a one way ticket to hell. It worked - the suicide rate dropped. I think they made the right call - it is a permamnent solution for temporary problems.

hugs

Bobbi

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I don't see heaven and hell as simply binary. My belief is that there is a spectrum, I know I wouldn't worship a god who tossed people into a fire for eternity for not being "saved", even though they've done much good in life. It's not our responsibility to decide where people will go after life. Therefore who is to say whether being trans is good or evil? If we believe it is right then we have a duty to follow through.

Would you really pluck out your eye? Or is it a metaphor for something else. Eye for an eye (justice), turning the other cheek meaning (forgiveness).

Jenny

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It is a metaphor, Jenny, but it's a literal metaphor, if that makes any kind of sense. Essentially, anything that can harm ones faith or ability to serve god must be removed, and if that translates into something physical then it is meant to be taken literally.

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I always said of those people who insist every word in the bible is meant to be taken literally that I have yet to see one with a plucked eye or missing limbs but I am positive they are not free from sin so maybe they don't take it quite as literally as they say. Otherwise they would actually all need to cut out their tongues in my opinion.

I believe that the bible is to be taken by it's spirit, which is love, rather than literally. How could one take it literally when the things it says are contradictory from book to book?

Do you ever wonder if some people could possibly be reading the same book you are?

Johnny

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This has been a facinating thread. My own brother has used many verses from the bible to condemn me for my transition. I took the verse and delved into my bible. I read these verse in the full context which he pulled them from. Not a one pertained to me or transitioning. I told him this in response to his claim that I could not argue with what God had put down. I further stated that it was he who was not living a Christian life by judging me in this manner. As Jesus stated, God 2nd greatest Commandment is for us to Love one another as ourself.

Laura Jane

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I always said of those people who insist every word in the bible is meant to be taken literally that I have yet to see one with a plucked eye or missing limbs but I am positive they are not free from sin so maybe they don't take it quite as literally as they say. Otherwise they would actually all need to cut out their tongues in my opinion.

I believe that the bible is to be taken by it's spirit, which is love, rather than literally. How could one take it literally when the things it says are contradictory from book to book?

Do you ever wonder if some people could possibly be reading the same book you are?

Johnny

I agree with you, for sure, I'm just telling it the way I was taught it. In large part why I'm no longer Christian, I don't care for the dogmatic approach to spirituality.

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Disclaimer, disclaimer! DONT EVER KILL YOURSELF!!!! with that said the bible teaches that sin is sin. No one sin is greater than any other. It does say that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Suicide is murder of ones self. Why would that be any worse in Gods eyes than lieing to someone? Both of these, without Jesus, would condemn us to Hell. I believe that suicide does not necessarily automatically send you on an express trip to hell. In my opinion, as long as you believe in what Christ did for you on the cross He won't damn someone for succumbing to their flesh in a moment of weakness. Again, never ever kill yourself it always gets better. And one last thought Jesus welcomes all of us as we are, not as what the world wants us to be. Love God, Love others. Easy right? If only.

Hugs

Chelsea

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Disclaimer, disclaimer! DONT EVER KILL YOURSELF!!!! with that said the bible teaches that sin is sin. No one sin is greater than any other. It does say that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Suicide is murder of ones self. Why would that be any worse in Gods eyes than lieing to someone? Both of these, without Jesus, would condemn us to Hell. I believe that suicide does not necessarily automatically send you on an express trip to hell. In my opinion, as long as you believe in what Christ did for you on the cross He won't damn someone for succumbing to their flesh in a moment of weakness. Again, never ever kill yourself it always gets better. And one last thought Jesus welcomes all of us as we are, not as what the world wants us to be. Love God, Love others. Easy right? If only.

Hugs

Chelsea

Blasphemy and rejection of Christ are considered to be unforgivable sins, according to Mark. 1 Corinthians 10:13 states that god will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can endure, so in order to succumb to suicide one would first have to reject Christ. I'm not saying I agree with that, but the reasoning for that belief is there.

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Disclaimer, disclaimer! DONT EVER KILL YOURSELF!!!! with that said the bible teaches that sin is sin. No one sin is greater than any other. It does say that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Suicide is murder of ones self. Why would that be any worse in Gods eyes than lieing to someone? Both of these, without Jesus, would condemn us to Hell. I believe that suicide does not necessarily automatically send you on an express trip to hell. In my opinion, as long as you believe in what Christ did for you on the cross He won't damn someone for succumbing to their flesh in a moment of weakness. Again, never ever kill yourself it always gets better. And one last thought Jesus welcomes all of us as we are, not as what the world wants us to be. Love God, Love others. Easy right? If only.

Hugs

Chelsea

Blasphemy and rejection of Christ are considered to be unforgivable sins, according to Mark. 1 Corinthians 10:13 states that god will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can endure, so in order to succumb to suicide one would first have to reject Christ. I'm not saying I agree with that, but the reasoning for that belief is there.

I completely understand where you are coming from. My understanding is that blaspheming of the Holy Spirit is the one unforgiveable sin. To my understanding this means never accepting what Jesus did and refusing to let the Holy Spirit into you. I have been a believer for a long time now and I have sinned since being saved and I don't consider myself to be stripped of heaven. Similarly, I believe that if someone believed and then succumbed to one last sin and committed suicide I don't believe that they are shut out of heaven. And I also wanted to touch on the verse 1 Corithians 10:13. God does not tempt us. However, He does allow us to be tempted just like He let Jesus be tempted. And just because He won't let us be tempted beyond what we can bear, does not mean we won't give in at times. None of us are perfect if we were we wouldn't need saving.

:)

Chelsea

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