An occurance of prejudice

[Guest Karen K]

Okay,

Many of you know that I am a member of a United Methodist Church and you may remember, that I am in the choir and praise band. Well, not any longer. I have been dismissed because I am transgendered.

My Pastor requested a meeting and we set it for Wednesday at 9:30 am. After some pleasantries, he came right out and asked if I was dealing with any transgender issues. As I suspected this may be the reason for the meeting, I was somewhat prepared for this.

I gave him a copy of my coming out letter, I sent to my younger siblings last year.

He made some comments while reading and then we got into a discussion about how God made us the way we are, that all of us have both male and female qualities within us, God is not the author of confusion and we should be comfortable with our bodies. I told him of my therapy, and he will be calling my GT soon. He asked about my "crossdressing", seems a member of the praise team saw me out one day. (I remember this: I was coming out of Target and was looking for my truck when I saw him, one lane over. He saw me, waved, I waved back then made a bee-line for my truck!)

I told him of the SOC and yes "crossdressing" is part of the therapy. At the end of the meeting, he prayed over me, and asked God to bless me no matter which direction I go. He added that he was still my Pastor and friend, if I need to talk his door is open to me. He also asked if he could share my letter with the "others". Appearently, Pastor is not the only one this member told. The choir leader and another offical with the music depart were also told.

Their decission came down today: I am no longer welcome in the choir nor the praise band! This is a blow to me as I get a great amount of joy singing my praises and leading others in praising the Lord via song.

Pastor assured me he would like me to remain active in the church and encouraged me to join his study class "Imitation of Christ". But I have already missed the first 3 meetings (they meet during choir practice) and it only has 3 more meetings. I don't like being behind and my heart just isn't up for this.

I should say here, that I have not presented as female in church nor at any church functions. I had hi hopes for this church as their motto is; "Open Hearts, Open Minds and Open Doors". The UMC also has 2 or 3 transgender pastors at churches across the U.S.

It has been suggest to me, that if anyone asks why I'm not in the choir or praise band, that I tell them of my transgenderism and that they don't want me. I feel I should refer them to Pastor. Your thoughts and guggestions on this would be appreciated.

Laura Jane

[Guest S. Chrissie]

I am sort of in the same boat..in the sense that I wanted to serve in the kids ministry since it first started last year. But I was always rejected on grounds that "the pastor felt that it wasn't time yet". So I've been in the church for 4 years now and I was never given a chance to serve in any ministries. And I know that it's definitely because of me being trans.

[Guest Donna Jean]

.

So not being religious...let me get this straight.......

You can't sing praise of the Lord if you're Trans, right?

Somehow you being Trans reduces your ability to be a good and loving christian or is it that you being Trans reduces THEIR ability to be a loving, accepting Christian?....

*sigh*

Dee Jay

[Barbwire]

MODERATOR: I realize this post is unrelated to the topic, but it's the only access I could fid to ask you a question. What is a PM system?

[PM = Private Messaging - available to members after 5 posts. Lizzie]

Edited February 11, 2012 by Elizabeth K
Answering a question

[Barbwire]

_{To those of you who have experienced prejudice in church, I suggest you try to find an MCC church in your area. These folks extend the love of Jesus to the LGBT community and will welcome you with open arms. As for those other churches which do not -- they aren't really Christian in origin, dispite their fancy names. Jesus was about love and acceptance, and that's my test for true believers.}

[VickySGV]

OOPS, I just posted in the Welcoming Church Thread, but my basic thought is with "friends" like him, a dog is always a better choice. It could be time to invoke Matthew 10:14,15 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town. Truly I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

I really do feel for you, and I find the pastor's lack of leadership to be very un-Christlike. His study on the book by Thomas aKempis, if thats what it is has not done him much good, and should have been required reading for the music team there at the church. The classic by aKempis is a bit much, although I have gotten through most of it. (In my case it was as a literature assignment in one of my college classes for mideval lit.) It will not be on your final entrance exam for the pearly gates, or Hell is going to be VERY FULL. Some people do enjoy it very much and get a lot out of it, but my attention span is short for an adult.

I would personally revoke the permission for him to talk to your gender therapist.

[VickySGV]

MODERATOR: I realize this post is unrelated to the topic, but it's the only access I could fid to ask you a question. What is a PM system?

PM stands for Personal Messaging, it will require 5 posts for a new member to be able to gain access to that part of the forums, or their own profile. Personal Messaging will allow member to member direct contact instead of having to post in a forum.

Welcome to the Playground, please read the Rules and Guidelines where PM is covered as well as what may be posted. We do have younger people here, and so we do have guidelines to follow in order to give them a safe environment. I would also suggest that you make a post over in the Introduction Forum, so that more people will get to know you and what your niche in our community is.

I am familiar with MCC and for the most part they are a great bunch of people who are Trans friendly and supportive.

[Guest Elizabeth K]

I was United Methodist Church for 30 years. This minister is not typical of the UMC and is in effect a hypocrite of the worst kind. No matter how well he tries to keep the peace - he let the membership override his sworn promise to protect the International Principals of the UMC. The very church you are in claims "Open Hearts, Open Minds and Open Doors".

I think a letter to the Bishop is in order. I won't hurt, and it might bring a resolution to this prejudice. It needs to be stopped.

Time for those people to live up to their motto!

Lizzie

[JJ]

This completely goes against UMC policy! They have had ministers transition in the pulpit and ministers come out as trans and continue in their pulpit. I have come out to my church and their statement was that it was difficult for them to grasp but they loved me and wanted me there. That's how the Methodist church is supposed to be.

The minister in your church is letting his own prejudices or pressure from someone who is prejudiced override the principles of the church and I agree with Lizzie that you need to take this to the bishop. For the sake of your church whose basic principles are being suborned by this minister as well as your own sake and any trans people who may follow you.

In my outrage at this minister I nearly forgot to say how sorry I am that this happened. I can imagine the pain you must be feeling. It's just so wrong and unfair! Please know you are in my prayers.

Hugs

Johnny

[Guest Elizabeth K]

A Texas UMC - Southeast Texas to make it worse. God deliver us from Texas bigotry! I fight it in the terrible bigotry my sisters exhibit. They live in San Antonio.

What part of Jesus command to love one another do they not understand?

Lizzie.

[Guest Karen K]

I thank you all for your prayers, sympathy and well wishes.

I would like to give my pastor a little more time. If he does indeed follow through with his promise of calling my GT, I pray that he gains some measure of understanding and compassion for what we, I am dealing/suffering with.

The choir mistress texted me yesterday afternoon, in response to my email about my hurt and disappointment over this and my desire to answer any questions she may have.

Hey K___, I just got ur email…I would really like to talk with you about the whole situation if you’re willing. But above all I just want u to know that I am so glad to have u as a friend and nothing that has transpired will change the fact that I do consider u a friend. I can’t imagine the hurt that this caused u and I am so sorry for that.

If you’re available maybe we could go grab coffee Sunday night and talk.

My reply:

I’ll make time for you, Sunday night sounds good.

I am both hopeful and , a little, apprehensive about Sundays' service. I think I'll refer all questions about my not being in the choir/praise band to the pastor, rather than out myself at this time. I do think it is a shame to deprive those who need my leadership, in songs of praise.

Laura Jane

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Karen - I hope it works out. Unfortunately I don't see any regret from anyone you are working with. I fear they will .'nice; you' but maintain the ban. You need to get that letter to the Bishop ready. Before you send it, send a draft to your minister and the music director. You have been wronged, but their tactic will be to hope you just go away. DON'T go away. we are depending on you to help us fight this kind of bigotry.

[Guest Karen K]

Miss Elizabeth,

I had wished to transition "quitely" with as little distruption as possible in my little corner of the world. But circumstances being what they are now, it looks like I am going to become somewhat of an activist. I do intend to write the Bishop as I feel I have been wronged! The Pastor may fear loosing part of the congregation, but that truly remains to be seen.

It is my wish to discuss addressing the congregation, on my transition, with the pastor, if and when he talks with my therapist. Who, BTW, has dealt with other patients who had concerns over their religious beliefs. I feel that I will be educating many on this medical condition and the treatment thereof. I have begun to draft a talk that, if the opportunity arises, I will use during service.

The letter to the Bishop will be sent soon. I do not wish to step on toes nor go over the Pastors head but the question remains: Why wasn't I consulted on my intentions prior to that being put before the Pastor? And they made this decision based on very little information or facts, could they not have waited to learn more before dropping the hammer?

Laura Jane

[Guest Elizabeth K]

I never wanted to be an activist either, but I had to do something about this evil bigotry that we get from those who are supposedly the moral guardians of the community.

EDUCATION

We have to educate people, starting with those who are our allies. They can in turn educate those they know. Eventually all will have the knowledge of what gender dysphoria is all about . THEN each can make decisions on how they personally want to react.

We WILL prevail. In years to come, when we are seen as human beings just trying to find a resolution to a problem we never asked for, a condition that never had a name until recently... augggh... for so long.

Ask people - which side of the struggle for respect of our rights do they want to be on at the end? Hopefully, they will want to be on the morally and ethically correct one.

WOW - where did that come from?

Lizzie

[Guest chngnwnd]

Good for you on the letter. I used to go to UMC when I lived on the Eastern Shore of Maryland - they are supposed to be inclusive for the LGBTQ community. I chose not to be out to the church since it would have widened the rift with my mother who is not entirely good with my transition. However, in DC I have found a wonderful place to worship at MCC - the best is taking communion with my partner. I cried the first time I shared that experience with her.

Best of luck

Bobbi

[Guest Karen K]

I truly will make a go of it with the UMC, I just hope I am articulate enough to do justice to our cause. I'll start with the choir mistress tomorrow evening. If she is open to hearing my saga and what I know of the technical side of Gender Dysphoria, then there will be hope. She should already know of my devotion to our Lord.

As for service tomorrow, I will attend with my head held upright and I'll sit toward the front and I will sing with all my might. If anyone asks why I'm not in the choir/praise band, however, I will refer them to the Pastor.

If it turns out, after all is said and done, that I am unwelcome at this church, I will not abandon my faith. Instead I will search for a sanctuary that is accepting. If it is to be MCC, then I will have to search out a congregation. I don't think there is one near by. If not, I will worship on my own.

Laura Jane

[Guest Karen K]

Update: Last night I met with the choir mistress at nearby cafe. I was nervous, but I gave her a synopsis of my life and a "Readers Digest" version of Gender Dysphoria and Transsexualism. She was attentive and made intelligent comments, in short, she is accepting and supportive.

During the course of our conversation which lasted until 10:45pm, I learned that a church member, M_, had seen me in CVS, but she was unsure it was actually me. She had gone to L_ (choir mistress) with this concern and even asked if I had a sister living here! L_ told me she suspected something about me and, since M_ wasn't sure it was me, she went to Pastor. I understand this as he is our spiritual mentor and stated as much.

I gave her a copy of the letter, mentioned previously, and loaned her my copy of "True Selves". We talked of the choir and praise band, she knows that my music is a large part of my worship and she was worried what this would do to me. I inquired as to how this would effect Ash Wednesday and my scheduled trumpet performance of "Amazing Grace". She assured me she would ask Pastor about this, and I reaffirmed my desire to play for that ceremony. Also I questioned the decission to oust me at this time in my transition. I have not presented at any church function nor for Sunday sevices, and while the risk of being seen out and about increases every time I go out, I am months away from going into RLT. Her concern, and Pastors as well, is the congregation. When I consider where I live, I understand this. If you know Southeast Texas, you'd have an "ah ha" moment too. All I can do is present the information, it is up to the individual to open their minds and hearts to accept this.

I remain ever hopeful and strong in my faith.

Laura Jane

[JJ]

Laura Jane,

It's so good that you have found an ally-someone understanding and supportive. Hopefully that attitude will make all the difference and spread out.

I admire your strength in your faith. Perhaps the Good lord is using this as an opportunity for growth in those around you in your church.

I'm kind of familiar with the Texas mindset-have relatives scattered from Houston on north and am a 5th generation Texan myself. The atmosphere here isn't exactly the same but just as conservative-very fundamentalist-but my UMC church hasn't been like that. Of course I don't sing in the choir or anything but I know from what they have said it wouldn't matter if I did. It sound like perhaps the leaders of your church need to be reminded to live their faith and not their prejudices.

I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.

Johnny

[Guest Karen K]

Thank you so very much for your comment Johnny. You are one of the few who have such wisdom and understanding of such a variety of issues within this thing call transsexualism. I do believe that most, if not all members and persons in authority lack the education to understand this.

I will have to take a deep breath and try my utmost to relieve them of their ignorance. I may have to repeat my story many more times and purchase many more copies of "True-Selves" to loan out.

My faith is strong, though my worship has been stiffled, somewhat, within the church. I will attend the study group the Pastor invited me to and keep my mind open and on Jesus.

Thank you again,

Laura Jane

[Guest Svenna]

Karen,

Did you see my PM to you on this topic yet?

I tacked it onto our last PM conversation about my bad weekend...

Svenna

[Guest Svenna]

Karen,

Did you see my PM to you on this topic yet?

I tacked it onto our last PM conversation about my bad weekend...

Svenna

DUH!!

I'm sorry, Laura Jane, I called you Karen for some reason...really should get some sleep soon, lol...

Svenna

[Guest Karen K]

Svenna,

I sent you a PM. Karen was my screen name when I first signed up, but a girl has a right to change her mind.

In other news the disappointment continues. I just finished dinner with the other two who decided to end my association with the choir and praise band.

After dinner they offered me the floor and I launched into the same telling I did last night. They had a similar reaction but not quite.

While both claimed to love me and support me no matter what direction I take, they both think I am making a terrible mistake. They both repeated this several times: I love you and support you, I don't understand this but I think your making a terrible mistake.

The male said, that if I thought I had it rough during the first 50 years, nothing would improve. As I transition, he said, I will experience a whole lot worse from the mature parishioners and whats worse is that I would confuse the young people in the church. Everyone would forget or dismiss all I have professed, they would not welcome me.

He said he had given me every opportunity to confess my crossdressing in my interview for the praise band, but that I didn't because I am ashamed of my decision. I told him I was not ashamed of who I am, I was afraid of their reaction. It's difficult enough tell one person, but to face four, who I respect and are in positions of power was just overwhelming. I just don't know how people are going to react.

The female said she understood, as she had a close friend whose 3 year old claimed one day the he could not go on as he should have been a girl! But she said that I am too tall and too broard shouldered and no one would ever accept me as a female, anywhere. Further she believes as my brother, that God wants me to suffer with this so that I will be closer to God as Paul was and to pray, continualy, as Paul did for relief. She suffers with depression and it is her dependance on the Lord that gets her through these. She suggested I go to a few of the most trusted lay ministers, confess this and have them pray over me. As if you could pray this medical condition away.Though she said many people have been cured of cancer and other diseases and afflictions through prayers. At my statement that I had prayed fervently for many years, she claimed that God brought me to this church so that others could help me.

She further stated that the church is in a precarious position right now, having gone thru dramatic changes over the last years. If I transition in front of everybody, I would be responsible for tearing the church apart! She questioned the motives of my therapist, wanting to know if he was a Christian and whether or not he is concerned over my relationship with God or was he just interested in making me feel good about myself. She went so far as to volunteer to go to my next session to ask him!

I do not know what to do with this. It seems to me, I have two options: 1) Leave the church I so love. That way, I will not be responsible for ripping the church apart, will spare myself the riddicule of the mature patrons and spare the teen from the confusion of watching me transition. 2) Not transition, spare myself the "terrible mistake" by caving into someone elses idea of how to live MY life.

These seem to be the only options they, unknowingly, suggested. This breaks my heart. I really felt that God brought me here to transition in a safe, welcoming, and supportive enviroment. Not to seek a cure where none exists, not to destroy or confuse or suffer more than I already have. I wonder if writting the Bishop would now do any good. i am praying over this but feel at this time, that I should leave this church even though these are only two out of a couple hundred or more.

Though I am seeking guidance from our Lord, I also seek input from those here on LP who are Christians as well.

Laura Jane

[JJ]

In this Laura Jane all I can really say is that you have to trust the answer in your soul. I had a wonderful grandmother who taught me when I was very small that if I was still and listened the answer would come. That part I understood from an early age. The part about not necessarily liking the answers or getting the ones I want took a lot longer. But I am sure that as a person of faith you know that voice in your innermost being.

For me no one else cam override it or contradict it. Sadly it sounds like the people in your church are presuming to know the voice and will of God for you and I don't believe they can. They are speaking from their fear and prejudices and not from their faith or the tenants of the church they are representing. The self righteous are not regarded well in the bile yet that attitude seems to come through in the attitude of these people.

Why should what you chose to wear make any difference to anyone but you or make you any less fit to sing in a choir as long as you lead a good life? I am sure there are members of the choir with real sins in their lives who are not so condemned and denied. I'll never understand when I see something like this.

My feeling is that perhaps another and better opportunity awaits you elsewhere. That as this door closes another will open. There are other places where your voice and your love will be appreciated and welcomed. It may be that here you cannot serve as well as elsewhere and so you are ding led to another congregation . Just my feeling.

Ultimately this is your decision. I an sorry that it came to this. As long as you listen to that voice I believe you are in His hand.

Johnny

[Guest S. Chrissie]

I love you and support you, I don't understand this but I think your making a terrible mistake.

Funny how this seems to be the typical Christian reply. I've heard so many "we love you, we accept you and support you, but it doesn't mean we agree with you" from people.

I got the "God made you male for a reason, for you to suffer and count on God" too. I don't know, cis Christians can say the darnest things sometimes. It's like because they "suffered' in some other way and received peace from God, therefor we should "suffer" the same way too, and not resort to transition, a "cop out" of sorts. For the cancer and all those stuff...the issue is, do they just pray and prevent the cancer sufferer to not seek medical attention? Just pure prayer for a cure?? No, you do both at the same time, chemo and prayer. Why don't they get that?

About her depression and finding solace in the Lord. I think I will call that bollocks. As much as we hate to admit it, depression is about feelings and when you praise the Lord, you worship, you pray, you attain a certain "high", endorphins and stuff get released in your brain and you feel good. I know I do. I always feel good when I do all that, but my depression was still there and when I stop worship/praying/praising sessions, the depression was back again. God heals, but we must be able to differentiate between true healing and us feeling "good".

When I was referred to a psychiatrist for my depression and suicide attempts, my pastor went the extra mile to find a Christian Psychiatrist and one with experience with gay people. Not surprisingly, the psychiatrist leaned towards reparative and have this Christian support group for ex-gays or something. I never got that far with him though.

I empathize with your situation, I am currently in the same situation and I don't know what to do myself. My church leaders has taken the ignore, continue to treat me male and keep their distance from me. I really love my church too, but now I wonder whether it's worth it to stay and continue to suffer in silence. It's a weekly stress and agony when I go to church.

[VickySGV]

Laura, I almost feel a little guilty in light of what is happening to you because of the success and warmth with which I am being treated in my parish. We are having some of the same problems with an aging congregation, and also with changes that have been forced on many of them by events other than my coming out. For me its as if I am a spot of calm in the middle of a roiling ocean. I am actually being asked to take on a leadership role I would never have had before, and have more people talking to me and confiding in me than ever before. In my case, I have shared some of my own "Way of the Cross, Via Dolorosa, Road Of Tears," or other names for a personal journey. I know I cannot exactly express my own life in ways that all of them will understand, but there can be dialogue and agreement to not fully understand, but to fully love and accept me as I am!

The people you have talked to, including the pastor, have all come up against a high stone wall and are looking at it in thankfulness that they do not have to go over it to what they believe is a hostile and punishing land. The problem is simply that the land on the other side is actually refreshing and beautiful but the wall is so familiar and constant that they cannot even dream of the other, as you not only can, but need to. You NEED to be on the other side of that wall.

I have a reply to people that ask me if so and so is a "Christian <fill in the blank>". My response to them is simply, "Christ was with me always in my dealings with this person, and Christ himself blessed the healing given at that person's hands. In Christ all things are possible." This is true for you too in this situation. Christ is with you on this journey, a path of tears and joy. Not a lot of study is needed to reach that point of enlightenment, but it does require you to assert the obvious that it is your journey and your Lord is truly with you. Do not let the others put you in doubt, and be bold to tell them!! "He taught in the Temple as one with authority, and the elders were astounded!" Express your authority by going to your bishop in both self assurance and authority of your own life.

Two famous prayers I would recommend, St. Francis, Prayer that begins "Lord make me an instrument of Your Peace and another attributed to St. Patrick, called The Breastplate. Let me know, and I can PM them to you.