Manning, Gender Identity and Military Prison

[Guest nomnomnom]

As an "outsider" from the US, I believe my understanding of this may be a little less skewed than some others.

I neither see Manning as a hero or a traitor to anyone/entity/organisation. This is a very difficult circumstance where anyone with a conscience would have a difficult time in dealing with the positives and negatives of saying anything.

She did highlight war crimes, she did highlight the fact the US government has a lot to answer for. (yes, like any other country... But the US does tend to get on a high horse sometimes, just like Australia). Maybe she didn't go about it the right way... I agree that ultimate transparency is a utopian ideal that would never work in reality. There needs to be a line drawn, however good luck to an individual reading each document themselves and grabbing the most relevant/least damaging to current Intel information.

one question i ask. Perhaps she did it in a suicidal state, where she didn't care anymore, as being male was enough to make her give up. People don't always act rationally when depressed, something I think people on here should realise.

[Guest Jenn348]

I loved Kristen Beck's take on FB

"This person took an oath to protect American interest and defend the constitution, and took additional oaths due to security clearances to protect information that leaders deem secret. There are legal avenues to whistle blow or bring attention to issues. THIS person is a liar and a thief and a traitor to many people. If Bradley is truly "Chelsea" then "she" is a traitor to ME personally"

"Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. "I have a Dream" speech was 50 years ago....I am still hoping for HIS dream of equality for ALL. America to be a beacon of Freedom and equality, to see his dream of the "red hills" come alive. I am still dreaming of equality....

Manning is a tarnish on my dream, he is a tarnish on Dr. Kings Dream."

Kristin? Could you pass the Kool-aid please?

[Guest KimberlyF]

I loved Kristen Beck's take on FB

"This person took an oath to protect American interest and defend the constitution, and took additional oaths due to security clearances to protect information that leaders deem secret. There are legal avenues to whistle blow or bring attention to issues. THIS person is a liar and a thief and a traitor to many people. If Bradley is truly "Chelsea" then "she" is a traitor to ME personally"

"Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. "I have a Dream" speech was 50 years ago....I am still hoping for HIS dream of equality for ALL. America to be a beacon of Freedom and equality, to see his dream of the "red hills" come alive. I am still dreaming of equality....

Manning is a tarnish on my dream, he is a tarnish on Dr. Kings Dream."

Kristin? Could you pass the Kool-aid please?

You never really answered. You're OK with what Manning did?

[Guest Sarah Faith]

It's official, she has announced that she considers herself female and wants people to use the name Chelsea Manning.

http://www.bradleymanning.org/featured/heroic-whistle-blower-addresses-gender-publicly-ready-to-move-on-to-next-phase-of-her-life#comment-27569

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning

Love her or hate her, it's time to start using the correct name and pronouns.

It's time to do what? I find the timing of Manning's reveal that he is transgender highly suspicious. I personally am not eager to have a convicted felon of any type represent the trans community, I will almost always acknowledge when someone comes here and says they are one thing as I have absolutely no reason to doubt them.. however I do have a reason to doubt manning. Until I have a better understanding of where and how the diagnoses of Gender Dysphoria came about I am not going to start referring to Manning as Chelsea just to appease the community.

Sarah

[Guest Robin Winter]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but what would it benefit someone to falsely claim to be trans after being incarcerated? I think whether or not we like the idea of having a felon as part of the trans community is irrelevant, it's simply a fact that some people are scum, and some of them are transpeople. I don't know enough of the story to pass judgement on this Manning person, but whether or not I support her position will have no effect on whether or not she is a woman. As far as whether or not she should recieve treatment, hormones, etc, I'll leave it to the courts to decide what rights she deserves, but as far as pronouns go, I won't make that decision based on personal feelings, if she's a woman she's a woman. I also think it's reprehensible to refer to someone as the opposite gender with the intent that it be a punishment or insult.

Maybe she's not really trans, but that's not my call to make.

[Ravin]

Sigh. I do suspect the full picture in Manning's case is not as black and white as a lot of people want to make it. Enlisted folks don't always understand the channels for reporting as well as they should. For a less dramatic example, when my kid sister was in the navy she and several berthing-mates were terrorized by a guy who would enter the female berthing and grope girls while were sleeping. The command brushed the whole thing under the rug, and my sister sent an email to a shipmate, complaining about the way the command was handling it. That mate then mass-broadcast that email to everyone aboard (on an aircraft carrier). My sister was put through Captain's Mast (without being told that was what it was until she was there for it), and ultimately given a general discharge for "failure to adapt" bs.

Later she was diagnosed with PTSD bad enough that she collects a VA check.

Should my sister have used proper channels to protest? Should she have been thrown under the bus when it wasn't her intention to email the whole ship? Should she have understood that once you send an email, where it goes is beyond your control? Should the mental health of the crew have been brushed aside by the command?

Manning's case has some of the same issues, but writ large with larger repercussions and consequences both for himself and others. I can sympathize with her frustration at the command's refusal to address a wrong. I can also see that her solution was neither wholly moral, as she released a lot more than the war crime stuff, nor at all lawful. There are ways to appeal up the chain of command, and bypasses such as whistleblower hotlines. Does she belong in prison? Probably. Is she the only one who should he disciplined in Tue situation? Probably not.

[Guest Sarah Faith]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but what would it benefit someone to falsely claim to be trans after being incarcerated? I think whether or not we like the idea of having a felon as part of the trans community is irrelevant, it's simply a fact that some people are scum, and some of them are transpeople. I don't know enough of the story to pass judgement on this Manning person, but whether or not I support her position will have no effect on whether or not she is a woman. As far as whether or not she should recieve treatment, hormones, etc, I'll leave it to the courts to decide what rights she deserves, but as far as pronouns go, I won't make that decision based on personal feelings, if she's a woman she's a woman. I also think it's reprehensible to refer to someone as the opposite gender with the intent that it be a punishment or insult.

Maybe she's not really trans, but that's not my call to make.

I think on the whole the trans community can be very quick to place individuals on a pedestal as trans icons almost entirely based on their fame. That is only natural of course people tend to feel more sympathy or a sense of kinship with those who have similar life experiences. Kristin beck for example mentioned earlier in this thread was hailed as a hero of the trans community a beacon of hope for us all, and yet now that Kristin beck has spoken out against another possible trans I wonder how long many will still hold her on a pedestal. I am sure her stance will generate a great deal of anger among many. The fact is that even though I personally find the hero whorship annoying Kristen Beck is a FAR better Beacon for this community then individuals such as Manning and Kosilek and other could ever be. A war hero vs a controversial felon who is a whistleblower to some, a traitor to others. Not all trans attention is good attention, but we as a community have a habit of turning any high profile individual who claims to be trans into a banner for attention.

You ask why would anyone go into prison claiming to be trans? Because Manning used being trans as a defense and had people testify under oath to that effect. Well if it was merely a ploy by the defense and its not true then it would still be a good idea to continue the charade due to the fact that if its found to be false then anyone who testified it as the truth could be charged on perjury. In the united states perjury is a felony and carries a 5 year prison sentence. The trans girl that was brought in to support this claim under oath for example could face charges on this. Manning was not sentenced to the maximum sentence the state was requesting, was any of this leniency the result of the trans defense? What happens if Manning backs off the trans claim now?

Trans or not, manning opened this can of worms in his defense in court. I am highly suspicious of this claim and until I have a better understanding of the diagnoses of Gender Dysphoria for manning I am not going to go out of my way to refer to this person as Chelsea or use female pronouns. The exact same reason why I'm not going to call a man who goes into the womens bathroom showing off his male genitalia to people and then claiming they're trans to get away with it, she or her because their claims are highly suspect to me. (Yes it does happen on the very rare ocassion.)

We as a community should not just latch on to every single person who claims they are trans there are situations where it could be a problem.

Sarah

[Guest Robin Winter]

I'm not latching on to anyone, frankly I don't give a hoot about the case, which is why I know nothing about it beyond what I've seen here. But please, how is it out of your way to refer to this person by one set of pronouns over another? And in what way could claiming to be trans be a viable defense in a treason case? Disbelief in the case of a man flashing is privates in a women's bathroom is different, because a trans claim is relevant to the case, it is not in Manning's case.

And again, there will always be good and bad people in the trans community, we don't get to choose which ones hit the media and refusing to see them won't make them go away.

[VickySGV]

Trans* people all come from the human race, and are from all quadrants of the human race. 'Nuff said, and all said!!

[Guest LizMarie]

Sarah, Private Manning was diagnosed with gender identity dysphoria in 2006.

Private Manning had a military psychiatrist mark her personnel file very clearly that she should not be deployed to a war zone nor should she be allowed access to sensitive material. Her commander overruled both of those recommendations, thus placing her in a highly stressful environment in 2007. Her CO screwed up. Bigtime. There is now a separate investigation into the actions of that CO because he also deployed some other troops whose records were clearly marked as persons not appropriate for handling sensitive information. The psychiatrist testified to this at the trial and introduced military medical records demonstrating that this is true.

Private Manning's gender issues were avoided by the defense team during the trial, except for the examples of abuse shown by the staff at Quantico during her solitary confinement, because they didn't want Private Manning to be further stigmatized as a trans woman, and you know that's how people would have reacted. You know it because right after the trial the twitter, facebook, and google+ social media sites were full of hateful transphobic comments.

Private Manning at least deserves our respect as a human being, whether you agree with the verdict or not, whether you agree with what she did or not. Private Manning's announcement of her gender dysphoria is NOT, as Kristin Beck alleges, an attempt to gain favor with the military. As I've noted above, the military itself has known about her GID for seven years.

May I respectfully request that people get the facts in this case before making hurtful and cruel statements?

[Guest Robin Winter]

Sarah, Private Manning was diagnosed with gender identity dysphoria in 2006.

Private Manning had a military psychiatrist mark her personnel file very clearly that she should not be deployed to a war zone nor should she be allowed access to sensitive material. Her commander overruled both of those recommendations, thus placing her in a highly stressful environment in 2007. Her CO screwed up. Bigtime. There is now a separate investigation into the actions of that CO because he also deployed some other troops whose records were clearly marked as persons not appropriate for handling sensitive information. The psychiatrist testified to this at the trial and introduced military medical records demonstrating that this is true.

Private Manning's gender issues were avoided by the defense team during the trial, except for the examples of abuse shown by the staff at Quantico during her solitary confinement, because they didn't want Private Manning to be further stigmatized as a trans woman, and you know that's how people would have reacted. You know it because right after the trial the twitter, facebook, and google+ social media sites were full of hateful transphobic comments.

Private Manning at least deserves our respect as a human being, whether you agree with the verdict or not, whether you agree with what she did or not. Private Manning's announcement of her gender dysphoria is NOT, as Kristin Beck alleges, an attempt to gain favor with the military. As I've noted above, the military itself has known about her GID for seven years.

May I respectfully request that people get the facts in this case before making hurtful and cruel statements?

*clicks "like" button*

[Guest nomnomnom]

So, am I getting this right?

patriotism > trans rights?

it would be great to have an unbiased discussion.

[Guest Jenn348]

I loved Kristen Beck's take on FB

"This person took an oath to protect American interest and defend the constitution, and took additional oaths due to security clearances to protect information that leaders deem secret. There are legal avenues to whistle blow or bring attention to issues. THIS person is a liar and a thief and a traitor to many people. If Bradley is truly "Chelsea" then "she" is a traitor to ME personally"

"Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. "I have a Dream" speech was 50 years ago....I am still hoping for HIS dream of equality for ALL. America to be a beacon of Freedom and equality, to see his dream of the "red hills" come alive. I am still dreaming of equality....

Manning is a tarnish on my dream, he is a tarnish on Dr. Kings Dream."

Kristin? Could you pass the Kool-aid please?

You never really answered. You're OK with what Manning did?

I don't think it's as simple as approval or disapproval. This isn't a black and white issue, and anybody who thinks it is is drinking one form or Koolaid or another.

You got the "patriots" on one side who think that any disloyalty to their leaders is bad. These people usually spout off things about Manning being a traitor, etc. On the other side, you have the "rebel scum" who are 100% sure that Manning's motivations were purely about honor, protecting the country from evil, etc. These are the folks who see Manning as a hero and put her up on a pedestal.

I think they're both wrong. They're making the fundamental attribute error and ignoring the context (see Gladwell's book "The Tipping Point" for more on this concept). Psychologists have done experiments where basketball players are put in a gym with bright lights so they can see the hoop well and are told to shoot free throws. They then ask the audience in the bleachers what they think of the players, and they're usually saying that the players are great basketball players.

Then the psychs bring in another team and dim the lights to the point where the hoop is barely visible and tell them to shoot free throws. The audience usually concludes that the basketball players must be bad players, have no business wearing uniforms and being on a team, etc. All this, and the audience was there for the change in lighting conditions!

People aren't like that. They aren't undeniably evil or heroes beyond reproach. This isn't a story book where the good guys are on white horses and the bad guys have black hats and mustaches. People aren't so simple, none of us.

While Manning may have personally felt she had honorable motivations, she was also unstable. Flipping tables over and stuff. I don't think gender dysphoria caused it all, but I would have a hard time not believing the untreated gender dysphoria was a factor. I've been pretty unstable in the past before I got my stuff sorted out and got the help I needed, both in the form of counseling and HRT, so I'm drawing on my own experience here, and I realize that may be unfair. She probably also had other psychiatric conditions that were untreated IMHO.

At the same time, there's a military that doesn't take care of its personnel very well. The military seems to be a magnet for MTF trans people trying to "cure" themselves through the art of manliness and warfare, and they don't find the cure they were hoping for. Some people fare better than others under these conditions. Kristin Beck seems to be one of the people who was able to better cope. Manning seems to be one of the ones who couldn't cope very well and lost it.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/08/transgender-troops-twice-likely-serve-twenty-times-likely-commit-suicide

There's also a problem in people Manning's age, the lust for fame. Somebody taught those kids (and I see this happening to people only 3-5 years my younger) that working hard and keeping your head low doesn't lead to success, that to be worth something in the world you must make yourself famous. I hear of people videotaping crimes and putting it on youtube to be a star. People shoot up their schools to die a famous death instead of just killing themselves. I'm sure there are many other examples.

I think when you put an unstable person with a desire to be famous and a little bit of idealism into the mix, you get Manning. When you put that mixture in contact with classified materials...

Bottom line: Manning is probably a fundamentally good person who thought she was doing the right thing, but that decision may have been affected by having mental problems, which were exacerbated by urine-poor Pentagon policy.

[Guest LizMarie]

I agree with you, Jenn. This is a very complicated case and as I told Kristin (and Kristin "liked" my comment on Facebook and then later agreed) that while Private Manning deserves to be punished, I am extremely upset that no one else in this entire debacle even got a slap on the wrist, from the commander who created the situation, to the helicopter pilots who committed a war crime, to the officer in charge that day who gave clearance to fire on a second vehicle that clearly had no weapons and civilians inside it. That bothers me immensely and this smells like a coverup - shove Private Manning in prison until everyone forgets about it and promote the criminals. I cannot state how disappointed I am at the US military's behavior in this case thus far and Kristin Beck agreed with that, reminding many of us as vets that the politicians send us off to die but almost never risk themselves.

Kristin did say she may run for public office, with the express intent of getting us out of stupid foreign entanglements. I wish her luck.

[Guest KimberlyF]

I loved Kristen Beck's take on FB

"This person took an oath to protect American interest and defend the constitution, and took additional oaths due to security clearances to protect information that leaders deem secret. There are legal avenues to whistle blow or bring attention to issues. THIS person is a liar and a thief and a traitor to many people. If Bradley is truly "Chelsea" then "she" is a traitor to ME personally"

"Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. "I have a Dream" speech was 50 years ago....I am still hoping for HIS dream of equality for ALL. America to be a beacon of Freedom and equality, to see his dream of the "red hills" come alive. I am still dreaming of equality....

Manning is a tarnish on my dream, he is a tarnish on Dr. Kings Dream."

Kristin? Could you pass the Kool-aid please?

You never really answered. You're OK with what Manning did?

I don't think it's as simple as approval or disapproval. This isn't a black and white issue, and anybody who thinks it is is drinking one form or Koolaid or another.

You got the "patriots" on one side who think that any disloyalty to their leaders is bad. These people usually spout off things about Manning being a traitor, etc. On the other side, you have the "rebel scum" who are 100% sure that Manning's motivations were purely about honor, protecting the country from evil, etc. These are the folks who see Manning as a hero and put her up on a pedestal.

I think they're both wrong. They're making the fundamental attribute error and ignoring the context (see Gladwell's book "The Tipping Point" for more on this concept). Psychologists have done experiments where basketball players are put in a gym with bright lights so they can see the hoop well and are told to shoot free throws. They then ask the audience in the bleachers what they think of the players, and they're usually saying that the players are great basketball players.

Then the psychs bring in another team and dim the lights to the point where the hoop is barely visible and tell them to shoot free throws. The audience usually concludes that the basketball players must be bad players, have no business wearing uniforms and being on a team, etc. All this, and the audience was there for the change in lighting conditions!

People aren't like that. They aren't undeniably evil or heroes beyond reproach. This isn't a story book where the good guys are on white horses and the bad guys have black hats and mustaches. People aren't so simple, none of us.

While Manning may have personally felt she had honorable motivations, she was also unstable. Flipping tables over and stuff. I don't think gender dysphoria caused it all, but I would have a hard time not believing the untreated gender dysphoria was a factor. I've been pretty unstable in the past before I got my stuff sorted out and got the help I needed, both in the form of counseling and HRT, so I'm drawing on my own experience here, and I realize that may be unfair. She probably also had other psychiatric conditions that were untreated IMHO.

At the same time, there's a military that doesn't take care of its personnel very well. The military seems to be a magnet for MTF trans people trying to "cure" themselves through the art of manliness and warfare, and they don't find the cure they were hoping for. Some people fare better than others under these conditions. Kristin Beck seems to be one of the people who was able to better cope. Manning seems to be one of the ones who couldn't cope very well and lost it.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/08/transgender-troops-twice-likely-serve-twenty-times-likely-commit-suicide

There's also a problem in people Manning's age, the lust for fame. Somebody taught those kids (and I see this happening to people only 3-5 years my younger) that working hard and keeping your head low doesn't lead to success, that to be worth something in the world you must make yourself famous. I hear of people videotaping crimes and putting it on youtube to be a star. People shoot up their schools to die a famous death instead of just killing themselves. I'm sure there are many other examples.

I think when you put an unstable person with a desire to be famous and a little bit of idealism into the mix, you get Manning. When you put that mixture in contact with classified materials...

Bottom line: Manning is probably a fundamentally good person who thought she was doing the right thing, but that decision may have been affected by having mental problems, which were exacerbated by urine-poor Pentagon policy.

So you don't believe in black and white thinking?

I'm not using Kosilek to argue for free access to trans medical treatment for all people, only prisoners. The Eighth Amendment and subsequent case law (including the Kosilek case) dictates that the government has a moral and legal obligation to provide treatments to prisoners that doctors deem necessary.

I'm arguing on principle. The law and morality still apply to even the worst offenders. Anything less is just situational ethics, IMHO.

[Guest GinaInside]

Such anger and bitterness here from some. And lack of humanity.

For those of you who were never military, Bradley Manning was faced with 2 choices:

1. Cooperate with his commanders in covering up a war crime, which he DID try to report, and thus become an accessory to murder; OR

2. Report it anyway via some other means.

Manning chose #2.

The following article of the UCMJ is what drove Manning to leak the video showing US helicopter pilots firing on wounded civilians (and killing them) and on children, none of whom were armed:

UCMJ Article 78: “Any person subject to this chapter who, knowing that an offense punishable by this chapter has been committed, receives, comforts, or assists the offender in order to hinder or prevent his apprehension, trial, or punishment shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

Further, in direct violation of UCMJ Article 37, both President Obama and General Dempsey both publicly declared Manning guilty before trial was even convened.

Finally, Afghan massacre suspect Robert Bales, accused of killing 16 civilians, 9 of them children, and his lawyer get words of encouragement, again from General Dempsey and President Obama both. Does anyone see the hypocrisy here?

Hundreds of veterans have viewed the leaked video and concluded that opening fire on the second vehicle was a clear war crime and constituted murder. International authorities have said that video clearly shows a war crime of murder being committed. But are those officers or their commanders being prosecuted? No, they are sailing ahead with their careers without even a verbal reprimand for committing murder.

And Bradley Manning, the young man who reported this crime to the world? He's going to be punished for doing the right thing.

I'd love to say more but this forum is the wrong place for such.

Thank you LizMarie. Private Manning did the right thing. Exposing a blatant war-crime was right to do. For those who have not read any of the leaked documants, please do so, outright crimes and treasonous acts by government officials were exposed. Private Manning is going to prison for exposing crimes, plain and simple. Sadly, I doubt Chelsea, as she prefers will be getting any help during incarceration.

[Drea]

I find it easy enough o believe this person has had gender issues.

Now as to why this person decides to push this now...well they have lost their freedom so why not explore the fantasy push the legalities...this is what inmates do...push the legal system in any way they can.

Now I notice that the majority of the transgendered don't have SRS nor even go on hormones.

It becomes pretty hard to justify medically necessary.

And clearly hormones and/or surgery aren't in the same class of necessary for survival medical treatment.

The communities push to support this I have to wonder just what term incarceration becomes sufficient to justify treatment?

Get 30 days for your 3rd DUI and get SRS in the deal?

Will this become the new means which folks do RLT and have SRS? The possibilities are endless.

Again I don't have much sympathy for this criminal. People make choices....choosing after being incarcerated...well too late...clearly this person will get therapy and I have no issue with that...and incidentally I consider hormones no big deal...but again that is a slippery slope thing and if the person wasn't on prescribed hormones before hand, I don't agree with it

[Drea]

For any want a good laugh at political correctness taken to absurdity, this person's wiki page has been updated to reflect desired name and gender.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning

It just looks absurd given all the pictures etc.

On the positive side, it may be a good illustration at how ridiculous sudden change looks to co-workers who have only experience one a certain way and then suddenly makes a change.

[Guest Jenn348]

I loved Kristen Beck's take on FB

"This person took an oath to protect American interest and defend the constitution, and took additional oaths due to security clearances to protect information that leaders deem secret. There are legal avenues to whistle blow or bring attention to issues. THIS person is a liar and a thief and a traitor to many people. If Bradley is truly "Chelsea" then "she" is a traitor to ME personally"

"Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. "I have a Dream" speech was 50 years ago....I am still hoping for HIS dream of equality for ALL. America to be a beacon of Freedom and equality, to see his dream of the "red hills" come alive. I am still dreaming of equality....

Manning is a tarnish on my dream, he is a tarnish on Dr. Kings Dream."

Kristin? Could you pass the Kool-aid please?

You never really answered. You're OK with what Manning did?

I don't think it's as simple as approval or disapproval. This isn't a black and white issue, and anybody who thinks it is is drinking one form or Koolaid or another.

You got the "patriots" on one side who think that any disloyalty to their leaders is bad. These people usually spout off things about Manning being a traitor, etc. On the other side, you have the "rebel scum" who are 100% sure that Manning's motivations were purely about honor, protecting the country from evil, etc. These are the folks who see Manning as a hero and put her up on a pedestal.

I think they're both wrong. They're making the fundamental attribute error and ignoring the context (see Gladwell's book "The Tipping Point" for more on this concept). Psychologists have done experiments where basketball players are put in a gym with bright lights so they can see the hoop well and are told to shoot free throws. They then ask the audience in the bleachers what they think of the players, and they're usually saying that the players are great basketball players.

Then the psychs bring in another team and dim the lights to the point where the hoop is barely visible and tell them to shoot free throws. The audience usually concludes that the basketball players must be bad players, have no business wearing uniforms and being on a team, etc. All this, and the audience was there for the change in lighting conditions!

People aren't like that. They aren't undeniably evil or heroes beyond reproach. This isn't a story book where the good guys are on white horses and the bad guys have black hats and mustaches. People aren't so simple, none of us.

While Manning may have personally felt she had honorable motivations, she was also unstable. Flipping tables over and stuff. I don't think gender dysphoria caused it all, but I would have a hard time not believing the untreated gender dysphoria was a factor. I've been pretty unstable in the past before I got my stuff sorted out and got the help I needed, both in the form of counseling and HRT, so I'm drawing on my own experience here, and I realize that may be unfair. She probably also had other psychiatric conditions that were untreated IMHO.

At the same time, there's a military that doesn't take care of its personnel very well. The military seems to be a magnet for MTF trans people trying to "cure" themselves through the art of manliness and warfare, and they don't find the cure they were hoping for. Some people fare better than others under these conditions. Kristin Beck seems to be one of the people who was able to better cope. Manning seems to be one of the ones who couldn't cope very well and lost it.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/08/transgender-troops-twice-likely-serve-twenty-times-likely-commit-suicide

There's also a problem in people Manning's age, the lust for fame. Somebody taught those kids (and I see this happening to people only 3-5 years my younger) that working hard and keeping your head low doesn't lead to success, that to be worth something in the world you must make yourself famous. I hear of people videotaping crimes and putting it on youtube to be a star. People shoot up their schools to die a famous death instead of just killing themselves. I'm sure there are many other examples.

I think when you put an unstable person with a desire to be famous and a little bit of idealism into the mix, you get Manning. When you put that mixture in contact with classified materials...

Bottom line: Manning is probably a fundamentally good person who thought she was doing the right thing, but that decision may have been affected by having mental problems, which were exacerbated by urine-poor Pentagon policy.

So you don't believe in black and white thinking?

I'm not using Kosilek to argue for free access to trans medical treatment for all people, only prisoners. The Eighth Amendment and subsequent case law (including the Kosilek case) dictates that the government has a moral and legal obligation to provide treatments to prisoners that doctors deem necessary.

I'm arguing on principle. The law and morality still apply to even the worst offenders. Anything less is just situational ethics, IMHO.

We shouldn't hold an individual with behavioral health problems to the same standard we hold our government officials. Not fair.

If Manning should be punished using the argument "the law says she must", then why give the government a pass on the laws they must follow (namely, US Constitution, Amendment VIII)? If manning opposers want legalism, then give them legalism, but apply it across the board, not just when it's convenient.

[Guest KimberlyF]

Either Manning is sane or not. If Manning isn't sane and can't be held to the same standard, then Manning can not make an informed consent as far as treatment and self ID.

Across the board works in all kinds of ways.