Does the right wing have a point(may upset people)

[Guest Sarah Faith]

Again, then, does the right wing have a point, I believe they do, and I believe their fears are justified to an extent. We will have a much easier time acquiring the rights we need if we also say that we dont agree with the all or nothing.

And so he killed himself.

You are not going to guilt anyone into switching to your point of view especially not me.

Don't talk to me about suicide Liz, I've been on the edge of suicide as recently as last winter and I can tell you that bathroom access was the last damn thing on my mind. I can just about guarantee you that the example you used bathroom access was the last thing on his mind... Infact the entire story you shared details someone who killed himself because his situation was utterly bleak and he was completely trapped. You are creating an emotional conclusion about bathroom access based on a almost unrelated premise, being placed in foster care and almost forced into prostitution is NOT anywhere near the same thing as bathroom access. I know a good deal of folks who are suicidal or have been suicidal due to gender issues and not once EVER have I heard one of them cite bathroom access the primary cause of their distress.

Would you like to know why I wanted to kill my self just 9 months ago Liz? I wanted to kill my self because of hopelessness.. was the hopelessness borne from an inability to use the womens room at that time? No.. It came from the fact that I was in some strange transition limbo where I was half transitioned but completely lacked the money to be able to start HRT and fully transition. I was suicidal because I had worked SO hard to lose the weight and I had absolutely nothing to show for it beyond some skin issues and oh boy I was healthy. Which bathroom I could use was the last thing on my mind because I was trapped in every other regard of my life, and I will tell you that the reason most people kill them selves is because of that trapped and hopeless feeling that is most certainly not being triggered by the usage of the bathroom.

Reasons for suicide go far far deeper over far more impactful elements of their life than public bathrooms. You know what would have kept the person you mentioned from killing them selves? Help transitioning. Why didn't the LGBT community work to arrange an adoption from a trans friendly family? That is the problem with this community, we run around trying to push very specific ideas on people even something as minor as bathrooms we try to connect with suicide.. We always keep a damn arms length away from those who are truly troubled and when they kill them selves we try to package their story in such a way that it will prove our political agenda. So it's easy for the LGBT "community" to sit around and lament that the guy you mentioned killed him self because of the evil state and the laws and "our hands were just bound" BULL there are lots of people in the LGBT community who can put their money where their mouth is and take someone like him in and give him a helping hand. I have seen first hand for others what a simple act of kindness from another trans person can do for them, hope goes a lot further than legislation and guilt.

The ONLY reason I am alive today is because rather than someone sitting around and thinking "How can I pass social laws to fit my political agenda that may one day help this person" they got off their arses and gave me that helping hand and is still helping me get my life on track. I am blessed to have this kind of help and that is the reason I personally became and still am active in this community, and I am sorry Liz but I care ALOT more about the individuals who need a friend or need someone to try to give them that helping hand then the community its self. Direct Action, and Kindness go a lot further than political bluster.

Less activism, more direct action.

[Guest EvaO]

I wish to make one more comment before I back out of this argument because neither side is swayed by either, therefore not engaging in any constructive purpose.

Thank you! No one is having a conversation, it seems. People are either rooting for each other as if it's a basketball game or getting overly aggressive (not the healthy kind of aggressive). If I want this, I'll just read article comments on Yahoo.

I have yet to not address a question asked directly to me. I believe I still have a few unanswered. I love conversations

Not sure what you're talking about, Kimberly, but, I believe I answered your initial question on page 2. If you feel I haven't answered any, please feel free to PM me and we'll talk one on one. I've pretty much given up hope for conversation on this thread.

[Carolyn Marie]

I realized yesterday that this topic was becoming another toxic waste dump, with people (including me) getting upset over it. So I chose to back off and haven't posted since yesterday afternoon. I agree with whoever said that nobody's minds are being changed. My suggestion to all is that, if you've stated your position, you might want to just leave it at that, rather than restating it over and over again. If your emotions are running in 5th gear, its probably not a good idea to continue posting, because chances are, you'll say something impolite. A tactical retreat is an honorable way to go.

I don't want to see this thread end up like some other recent ones, so please, if you can't keep your cool, then its best to keep your distance.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest KimberlyF]

I wish to make one more comment before I back out of this argument because neither side is swayed by either, therefore not engaging in any constructive purpose.

Thank you! No one is having a conversation, it seems. People are either rooting for each other as if it's a basketball game or getting overly aggressive (not the healthy kind of aggressive). If I want this, I'll just read article comments on Yahoo.

I have yet to not address a question asked directly to me. I believe I still have a few unanswered. I love conversations

Not sure what you're talking about, Kimberly, but, I believe I answered your initial question on page 2. If you feel I haven't answered any, please feel free to PM me and we'll talk one on one. I've pretty much given up hope for conversation on this thread.

What I'm saying is conversation involves give and take. Someone has a position, they state their beliefs and can ask questions from the other side to see where they stand. I have in fact changed my mind on numerous issues in my life, but that requires a position that makes sense to me. If the positions presented seem to contradict, then I can't claim it as my own.

[JenniferB]

I realized yesterday that this topic was becoming another toxic waste dump, with people (including me) getting upset over it. So I chose to back off and haven't posted since yesterday afternoon. I agree with whoever said that nobody's minds are being changed. My suggestion to all is that, if you've stated your position, you might want to just leave it at that, rather than restating it over and over again. If your emotions are running in 5th gear, its probably not a good idea to continue posting, because chances are, you'll say something impolite. A tactical retreat is an honorable way to go.

I don't want to see this thread end up like some other recent ones, so please, if you can't keep your cool, then its best to keep your distance.

Carolyn Marie

I agree with Carolyn. I knew from the original post that this thread was a time bomb. I could see emotions flaring and people becoming offended. I'm for locking the thread personally.

I think we need to remember that this site is a suicide prevention and support site first. It also represents all parts of the transgender community, not just Transsexuals. I think sometimes we forget that. We want to give support, and not drive people away. Once an opinion is taken personally, people get hurt.

Jenny

[MaryEllen]

Okay folks. If the current trend of this topic continues, I will close it. If you can't keep it civil, keep silent.

MaryEllen

[Guest KathleenMarie27]

I honestly dont see where I have not been completely civil and emotionally devoid.

[Guest KimberlyF]

Part of the conflict as I see it by rereading the topic-and I've been wrong before-is that those who support the law can't agree fully on who the bill should cover and that is one of the big issues that those against the law have with it. Is it just for those transitioning or is it for the whole umbrella?

And if it is for the whole umbrella, then isn't that allowing for male IDing people in the women's spaces?

[Guest Sarah Faith]

I realized yesterday that this topic was becoming another toxic waste dump, with people (including me) getting upset over it. So I chose to back off and haven't posted since yesterday afternoon. I agree with whoever said that nobody's minds are being changed. My suggestion to all is that, if you've stated your position, you might want to just leave it at that, rather than restating it over and over again. If your emotions are running in 5th gear, its probably not a good idea to continue posting, because chances are, you'll say something impolite. A tactical retreat is an honorable way to go.

I don't want to see this thread end up like some other recent ones, so please, if you can't keep your cool, then its best to keep your distance.

Carolyn Marie

I agree with Carolyn. I knew from the original post that this thread was a time bomb. I could see emotions flaring and people becoming offended. I'm for locking the thread personally.

I think we need to remember that this site is a suicide prevention and support site first. It also represents all parts of the transgender community, not just Transsexuals. I think sometimes we forget that. We want to give support, and not drive people away. Once an opinion is taken personally, people get hurt.

Jenny

I for one almost never get offended by much of anything, and if I do I get over it. I highly doubt that someone is going to read this thread and feel suicidal because of it. That was my point earlier in response to liz that we cant just keep throwing around the fear of suicide in order to avoid talking about subjects of substance.

I'm personally unconcerned if my arguments change anyone's positions or not but I do feel that we need to allow people to express their feelings on things. Remember transgender people are marginalized as everyone points out so often here and how often do they have to bottle feelings up in real life? Because they have family or parents or kids or friends who simply do not want to hear what they have to say because they find being trans offensive.

Do we really want to ask people to keep it quiet to bottle those feelings in just because what they have to say may offend us? Remember support is more than just saying "I am here for you" when someone says they are feeling suicidal.. Support is also listening to their opinions, respecting that they may have opinions we do not like. Calmly debating your own feelings to theirs is fine, but basically telling people to "Be quiet you might offend someone" is not productive, and it is not supportive.

You all said it best, this is a transgender support site and people come here to express them selves and talk about things they do not feel safe talking about anywhere else.. So please understand that transgender people need an outlet to share their opinions no matter how controversial or personally someone else might take those opinions.

[JJ]

Perhaps my take is simplistic but I see transgender as a broad spectrum and all parts of it possibly being a medical condition. Truth is we just don't know. So who do you appoint to say? And do we really want to set that kind of precedent and further splinter the community. And where is a drag king supposed to go in full regalia. Some put most cis females to shame and sure are not safe in a male restroom. Why say I can do this because I have a medical condition and the money to get treatment to prove it but sorry you don't? Aren't we splintered and elitist enough as a community already?

Also if this is a sexual issue or keep someone out of the restroom so they don't get a peep at someone they are attracted to sexually then should we maybe pass a rule that lesbians have to use the men's or have a special restroom. Same with gays. After all it is possible they would find some thrill out of seeing someone in the restroom of their anatomical gender.

What is wrong with letting people go where they chose? Many countries do with no problem. If there is someone in the restroom you don't feel comfortable about then you leave and come back later. Women's restrooms usually have locking private stalls anyway.

Prosecute people who accost others in any bathroom and leave the innocent in peace to chose as they will. And pass laws accordingly.

there are laws on the books requiring restrooms be provided for people in many instances. It is a right is others have access and freedom. Make it a right for everyone and not just those who fit a definition that you can bet will be a nightmare to agree on or enforce

My only comment on this thread.

Johnny

[Guest LizMarie]

These laws are typically not just "bathroom bills" though they frequently get called that because a favorite tactic of the radical right is to focus on the bathroom. This happened in San Antonio recently but the proposed law was actually a general anti-discrimination ordinance for the city, and bathroom access was just one part of this. This is frequently the case with these bills.

Second, the law that just passed in California has been in use in Houston and San Antonio (and I believe but am not certain Austin and Dallas) schools for years now. Yes, Sarah, there are lists of which students are trans because this isn't just about the bathroom. It's about treating those kids with dignity.

To those of you who claim I am trying to guilt you, I'm not. I already knew your minds were made up. Kathleen, you claim to want to hold a conversation but if someone takes the opposite point, you dismiss it. That's not a conversation. This entire thread appears, to me, to be an effort by people who support these laws to reaffirm your own positions so you can feel comfortable with them without looking at real world impacts. A young man is dead because the legal basis did not exist to protect him from a CPS bureaucrat who was determined to make this young man live as a her. That's a fact and a fallout of lack of TG protections. How do we fix that? That teen could not afford a therapist, nor could he afford a legal name and gender change (and in fact was self-medicating on T, which we were also trying to change). He simply lacked the finances and the job skills to improve those finances. How do we save that kid? That's more important to me than the tired "Colleen Francis" argument.

Also, the point I made about that FTM young man was not about the bathroom. It was exactly what the San Antonio city ordinance was intended to address - a general anti-discrimination law. That law, if it had been present here in Houston when that young FTM was going to be forced by CPS into a female presentation in a foster home would have given legal basis to those arguing against CPS. Because legal basis did not exist, the attempt to get the court to stop CPS failed and the results were final, quite literally.

It's easy to sit back and argue ivory towered utopian positions but what happens when the rubber meets the road? That's the practical reality of any law.

Which brings us full circle back to Colleen Francis and those who argue that Colleen Francis was in the wrong (with which I agree, by the way) and I reiterate - the problem was not the TG protection law at all! The real problem was an indecent exposure law that was too vaguely worded. My argument is that we should fix that rather than attacking trans folk generally.

I also stated that I am open to the idea of restrictions if you can address those disadvantaged trans youth. So far exactly ZERO of you have done so. And please don't say it's the politicians who should. They aren't!! The ones who propose these restrictions do so in an attempt to cast a large enough umbrella to stop any of us from living as ourselves. They're not concerned about those trans youth and in fact, some of them have publicly argued that teens should be forced to detransition.

There is a saying that the devil is in the details. If you wish to argue for restrictions, it is incumbent upon you to resolve the details of those restrictions. Throwing it over the fence to politicians who simply don't care about us at all isn't responsible.

So I am waiting. Do any of you have restriction proposals that would still protect those disadvantaged trans youth? I'll listen if you do but not one minute before that.

[VickySGV]

I spent a great deal of time last week with a VERY large group of people involved in the endevor to find ways to be sure that our rights are protected and that we gain financial, educational, housing and myria other rights. These people ARE our leaders who have spoken with legislators, drafted legislation, gone to courts and fought legal battles on our behalf. (Ok, for "those of us folk here" that wished their efforts on our behalf.) Where rights have been gained, you can waive those rights IN REGARD TO YOURSELF, and that is anywhere. Denial of the right of another person though must be done only in an extreme case impending ACTUAL harm to themself or others.

I am welcome in the circles of those people, and they accept my credentials to speak as a peer. The bulk of the group I was with were actual bar member attorneys, and others like myself who have full legal educations and legal based careers. Complete knowlege of the legal system is complex and lengthy. The entire structure of a law and its applicability is crucial to understanding it. The AB1266 cannot be understood by reading just the 6 words that were amended to an existing Education Code section. It must be read in conjunction with the entire California State Education Code, which shifts the emphasis away from the "bathroom" or "locker room" issue to the use of far more facilities such as Science Labs, vocational shops, cooking and sewing classes, or recreation equipment. The AB1266 addition just adds an imperative to those existing rights to be applied to gender varient people.

Other parts of the Education Code already provides for privacy of ALL students, none of that is repealed by AB1266. This lines up TG with other special privacy situations already covered. Those issues involve medical assessment, and other assessments for suitability. Some children come from families of strict body privacy issues on a religious basis, other children have medical issues such as colostomies and surgical stents. None of them just flip flop, and nor will TG children be allowed to. Parents, children, and educators will plan this out in detail under the new law. AB 1266 just basically say, yes, all that applies to these other children with special education needs. The entire Education Code contains the process for a child AND Parents to get the child recognized as other than birth sex, and it is not frivilous, it is reasoned and compassionate. If a parent is afraid their child will come in contact with a TG child in a bathroom, the child of that parent can be accomodated too.

All of this is overlooked currently by the media hype. It was over billed by a TG sympathetic legislator with good intentions, but without much real sense. Most people do not understand the existing law, and unlike the Coy Mathis issue, we did not have a winningly available public image of what this bill did.

One of my co-conferee's is working for the California Superintendent Of Public Education's Office Of Chief Legal Counsel, and NONE of the terrors being expressed is close to the truth of what it will be in the front office of a local school. When in doubt, get with the people pushing the computer buttons and their legal reviewers.

Lets give this over to the Legal Beagles to work on for a few months then they can confuse us with the facts.

[Guest KathleenMarie27]

This will be my last post, I just want to say that while I am glad to be a part of this community, I feel that there is a void between the generations. Im sorry to see that, this is the first time I have ever expressed any real opinion on this site, the responses have been disappointing.

[MaryEllen]

I know you had good intentions, Kathleen. As so often happens, these controversial topics turn into strong opinions that lead to anger and hurt feelings. Having an opinion is okay as long as it doesn't lead to an "I'm right and you're wrong" mentality which is what is happening here.

I'm sorry to have to close the thread but I can't see any good happening if it were to continue.

MaryEllen