Transgender Murder Trial: Hate Crime Charge May Be A First

[Guest]

Transgender murder trial: Hate crime charge may be a first

http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2009/04/17/3140/

[Guest leo]

this is real sad to see and my heart goes out to her and her family

[Guest]

One question to ask. Does tacking a hate crime on to a murder charge make it less likley the crime will be committed? Do extra penalties deter crime?

Laura

[Guest Irielle]

Laura, I think I read somewhere a while back about a study showing that making a crime a hate crime doesn't affect its occurrance. In other words, it's not a deterrence when you make a crime a hate crime.

It's kind of like that fact that the death penalty doesn't deter the crimes that have it as their punishment.

What it does do is up the ante when it comes to prosecution. I think the prosecutors can get harsher sentences for those found guilty of a hate crime as compared to those not defined as hate crimes.

[Guest ~Brenda~]

Laura,

I was pleased to see that the perpetrator was not only charged with murder, but also a bias-motivated crime (or hate crime). What concerns me is that the defense lawyer is trying to argue tha Ms. Zapata was deceitful (implying that begin a woman and living as a woman was a lie) and that somehow there was some justification of the crime. If the public thinks that if you are trans and are living as your true gender, then you are living lie, and are therefore punishable. Leaves us all in a very perilous position right now.

bernii

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Well - I couldn't help but comment. I wrote:

I don’t understand why everyone is so divided on this issue. As a transperson I can assure you that it is not my intent to be murdered for any reason!

I have the right to judge what I tell people about myself early in a relationship, and if I was dating (I am not) and was very interested in a person, I would certainly want to let some time pass before telling them I was assigned male at birth - although I am totally transitioned female now.

I mean, that is a HUGE personal fact to bring up at the first telephone call. Like saying. ‘Hello Mr. Doe, glad you called me (by the way, I am transsexual) and how are you? ” So I suspect that this very young transwoman was really looking for a ‘normal,’ female life, hoping to meet Mr. Right. It turned out horribly, Mr. Wrong.

Now so many blame the victim. She should have been more cautious, not so trusting. She was just trying to be a happy person. She died over a man’s shame, real or imagined, that he had been betrayed? Or was he just homophobic? Maybe homophobic about himself?

Please read about gender dysphoric people. We are really just like you - but have a really terrible life - because of what we feel is true about ourselves. Its about gender NOT about sex. It is NOT a lifestyle choice. I wouldn’t wish my life on my worst enemy.

How can killing a person because they don’t fit your idea of ‘normal’

NOT be a hate crime? And if it was premeditated, it was a truly evil deed.

I say, let the courts look at this. But remember courts are about the ‘law,' not about ‘justice.’ God is the final judge.

I hope I didn't expose myself too much. Probably no one will even see what i wrote.

Lizzy

[Guest DanM]

Being a victim of a hat

[Guest Ryles_D]

In his opening statements, defense attorney Bradley Martin emphasized that this is not a case about lifestyle and right or wrong; that it’s a case about Zapata’s deceit.

Zapata's lifestyle was exactly what it should be- that of a normal woman. That isn't deceitful, it's likely in those last 3 years her lifestyle was the most honest it'd ever been. She was killed for being trans, that alone should show that we can't expect people to walk around with a "Hi, I was born male" T-shirt.

[Guest]

The deceit is the opposite of what most cis-gender people think. It is in living in our born gender before we transition, not after. This isn't done intentionally and we usually have to work through the confusion first before we are ready. Living as your "True Self is not deceitful it is liberating. The only ones we deceive before transition are ourselves. The "gay/transgender defense" is not enough to justify murder for any reason. It's been tried before. Some would have us wear big neon signs saying TRANSSEXUAL in big letters. That would cause more violence not less.

Laura

[Guest mia 1]

Well - I couldn't help but comment. I wrote:

I say, let the courts look at this. But remember courts are about the ‘law,' not about ‘justice.’ God is the final judge.[/color]

I hope I didn't expose myself too much. Probably no one will even see what i wrote.

Lizzy

Bully for you as T.R. would say...It takes a lot to post especially when you have to use your email address....I'm proud of you girl!!!!! Mia

[Guest mia 1]

Yes this trial is going on in my area and here on the Front Range there is no ambivalnce...every one is behind the Zapata family and are hoping for a conviction...the Hate Crime part of the trail is a trial balloon and will make a difference for the trans gendered community. We will not be the red haired step child of LGB(T) community but full members of the LGBT without the parenthesis at least that is the way I reckon it.......

[Guest Silver]

Yeah, I commented at that site TWICE but neither was posted and they were pretty good too. Ah well, fingers crossed that the next on gets through.

Angie deserves respect, and justice. RIP.

[Guest April63]

I don't know if adding extra charges really has much of an effect. I think what you really need is education and you need people to realize that we are all just people. Adding up more charges and having people sit in jail longer will not help anything except an increase in our taxes

April

[Guest Leigh]

The deceit is the opposite of what most cis-gender people think. It is in living in our born gender before we transition, not after. This isn't done intentionally and we usually have to work through the confusion first before we are ready. Living as your "True Self is not deceitful it is liberating. The only ones we deceive before transition are ourselves. The "gay/transgender defense" is not enough to justify murder for any reason. It's been tried before. Some would have us wear big neon signs saying TRANSSEXUAL in big letters. That would cause more violence not less.

Laura

yeah. last time i checked we aren't living in cup cake Germany. i just hope that the prosecution can get that across.

[Guest Seth]

This is awful to hear. My condolences to her family.

How can the dude's lawyer try and sit there and make it seem less than what it was?

[Guest julia_d]

I loved the comment by the gay guy.. he claims to be open and up up front with people straight off the bat.

I bet he doesn't go to the local truckers bar with a "gay pride" shirt on XD

The comments just show me what disgusting people there are in society.. Trying to justify violent premeditated murder because somebody happens to be living in their identified gender.

[Guest Ryles_D]

We will not be the red haired step child of LGB(T) community but full members of the LGBT without the parenthesis at least that is the way I reckon it.......

I hope that does happen.

I don't know if adding extra charges really has much of an effect. I think what you really need is education and you need people to realize that we are all just people. Adding up more charges and having people sit in jail longer will not help anything except an increase in our taxes

April

Actually, getting it labeled a hate crime is a big move. It's a hate crime to kill someone for being black or gay- why shouldn't it be a hate crime to kill someone for being trans? People need to acknowledge this is an act of hate, and that it isn't okay to kill someone for being different.

The comments just show me what disgusting people there are in society.. Trying to justify violent premeditated murder because somebody happens to be living in their identified gender.

That's why I avoid reading the comments.... They're disappointing.

[Guest AshleyK]

We will not be the red haired step child of LGB(T) community but full members of the LGBT without the parenthesis at least that is the way I reckon it.......

To be honest, I've never thought that being transgendered should be grouped with being lesbian, gay or bisexual, because those are sexual orientations wheras being transgender is more...gender. That's why being the T in LGBT always confused me, and probably is the reason I stay away from LGBT stuff...

[Guest Ryles_D]

I read some of the comments- it was just awful. One guy practically called her a rapist?! That makes no sense. I wish they did the newest comments first, what I added will likely never be seen.

To be honest, I've never thought that being transgendered should be grouped with being lesbian, gay or bisexual, because those are sexual orientations wheras being transgender is more...gender. That's why being the T in LGBT always confused me, and probably is the reason I stay away from LGBT stuff...

Same here. I've seen people suggest we join feminism- and that makes much more sense to me. It doesn't help that when people hear "LGBT" they think "gay". I don't know if the stonewall journalist controversy came up here (basically someone with anti-trans writing was nominated for an award in a LGB publication), but someone said something along the lines of "It is a LGB (no 'T') work. It should only deal with homosexual issues", completely ignoring the 'B' they just mentioned, so it happens even in the LGB/T community.

The reason's I've been given is because transphobia and homophobia go hand in hand. Which I guess is true, they do seem related. A few people said that the woman shouldn't've been killed for being a gay man. (gah!) But that doesn't make it less annoying to see gay rights making the news and same-sex marriage talked about everywhere and people who seem to have no idea about transissues.

[Guest nova]

I really hope this trial kills the so-called 'gay panic or trans-panic' defense or whatever they call it.

I'm not buying it that this guy didn't know Angie was trans. Just as likely one of his 'home boys' said he was gay for being with Angie, and he couldn't deal with THAT. I've known a few guys who were drooling to get with me when their buddies weren't around, but when they were around, they would act like I was invisible; and I found out that one guy would say horrible things about me (and transsexuals in general) behind my back, but when he could get me alone he couldn't keep his hands off me and tried to force his tongue down my throat. So, I'm not buying his story. When Gwen Arajuo was murdered out here in California, people came forward and said that her murderers knew she was trans. The female that was partying with them that day, pulled one of the devils aside and outed Gwen, or she thought she was outing Gwen. But these animals were afraid of being called gay and they did what they did. They got away with this "worst kind of deception" defense, but I am praying for Angie and her family and that this 'panic defense' is rejected by the jury.

[Guest Elizabeth K]

One of the moderators who lives in the area told me not to be misled by the comments in the blog (media site in the TOPIC posting). The general Colorado area seems very much outraged by this whole thing. I can only speculate why people want to be so negatve in their responses - yet when I told a person very close to me about what happened to Angie Zapata, I got a very similar reaction: "she was flaunting her transsexuality!" this person said.

I am just mystified how people can be so angry at us gender dysphoric for trying to live a happier life.

Lizzy

[Guest ~Brenda~]

One of the moderators who lives in the area told me not to be misled by the comments in the blog (media site in the TOPIC posting). The general Colorado area seems very much outraged by this whole thing. I can only speculate why people want to be so negatve in their responses - yet when I told a person very close to me about what happened to Angie Zapata, I got a very similar reaction: "she was flaunting her transsexuality!" this person said.

I am just mystified how people can be so angry at us gender dysphoric for trying to live a happier life.

Lizzy

Yes, well said!! This is what concerns me the most!! There is clearly an attitude among the general public that if you are a transsexual, and if you live your life as to your gender, and if you are "found out" then you get what you deserve!! Horrible! to say the least!! Here in lies the crux of the matter for me... It seems that it is OK among the "cis" that if you present as "trans" then all is OK (well sort of), but if you present as male (FTM) or female (MTF) and are "caught" as trans then you are deceitful and are subject to punishment. What the public needs to understand is that being transgendered does not mean that you are any less than your true identified gender!!

How can this continue?

Worried,

bernii

[Guest Leigh]

so...against lots of advice in this thread, i went to that website and read some of the comments........................i'm so f*cking p*ssed...............

do people think that we change genders as a joke? to screw with them? as a fetish? what...?!?! i just don't know what to say. they have NO IDEA the crap we go through. they don't know what it's like to live the way we do.... and they don't try to educate themselves. they're just ignorant and hateful. i really want to go to Colorado and have a rally for transkids in support of Angie. i mean, if things like this don't mobilize us, what will? this is one of those times that we shouldn't be afraid to come out in support of each other.... and lets face it. the gay community isn't going to stick up for us on issues like this. we have to DO something....

even though i'm super p*ssed...still

peace&love

[Guest Ryles_D]

I'm not buying it that this guy didn't know Angie was trans. Just as likely one of his 'home boys' said he was gay for being with Angie, and he couldn't deal with THAT. I've known a few guys who were drooling to get with me when their buddies weren't around, but when they were around, they would act like I was invisible; and I found out that one guy would say horrible things about me (and transsexuals in general) behind my back, but when he could get me alone he couldn't keep his hands off me and tried to force his tongue down my throat. So, I'm not buying his story. When Gwen Arajuo was murdered out here in California, people came forward and said that her murderers knew she was trans. The female that was partying with them that day, pulled one of the devils aside and outed Gwen, or she thought she was outing Gwen. But these animals were afraid of being called gay and they did what they did. They got away with this "worst kind of deception" defense, but I am praying for Angie and her family and that this 'panic defense' is rejected by the jury.

I'm skeptical as well. Is it likely she wouldn't know what name that parking thing (was it a ticket?) was under? It seems like she'd either know or suspect, and that seems like a bad idea to bring him with her if she did and wasn't out to him- because that's not exactly a good way to come out to someone.

I hope that doesn't work out, too. It's really sad what people will say justifies murder.

do people think that we change genders as a joke? to screw with them? as a fetish? what...?!?! i just don't know what to say. they have NO IDEA the crap we go through. they don't know what it's like to live the way we do.... and they don't try to educate themselves. they're just ignorant and hateful. i really want to go to Colorado and have a rally for transkids in support of Angie. i mean, if things like this don't mobilize us, what will? this is one of those times that we shouldn't be afraid to come out in support of each other.... and lets face it. the gay community isn't going to stick up for us on issues like this. we have to DO something....

And the ones saying he's wrong where filled with general ignorance, too. "you shouldn't kill someone just for being gay, I think that's racist" or that it's not a murder of passion if you don't use your hands- grabbing an instrument to use makes it pre-meditated. There was also an awful "we need to teach our kids not to kill and also not to change their sex!"

I really don't know what people think, but the fetish wouldn't surprise me. I think "the man who would be queen" (I've never read it and have no intent to, this is all heresay) basically says that it's a fetish. It's either gay men who want a leg up on hte competition or people who get off on the idea of themselves as female. Basically, stupidity.

It doesn't help that people seem to genuinely believe it's what's between your legs that makes you who you are. I've seen comments to 100% cisgendered people implying that SRS would make them the opposite gender. We aren't "women/men trapped in a man/woman's body"- we're women/men who become men/women through surgery. So, by that view, it is deception because you're still "really" your birth sex- that's obviously what you identify as. Why the heck did they think we went through all the trouble of transitioning if that's true?! >_<

[Guest Elizabeth K]

I just went back to the news site to check to see if they okay'd my reply (they did) and saw so much wrong information, prejudice and hatred I was sick! This seemed to come from men and women alike. Not that I am surprised, but many were up in a pizzy fit simply because the article refered to Angie as a 'she!" And it just got worse and worse and worse.

Now, to be fair., there were kind and considerate thoughts there too.

But my friends, we here are Laura's - we have a moutain to climb if we think anything can be done to educate these people in the non-gender dysphoric community. I am not sure it can be done in my lifetime or yours. I certainly will never give up, but I am really disappointed in these people, many who are probably otherwise decent human beings (or is that me being naive?)

Just a thought or two - and by the way, my very sweet wife says 'see how dangerous it is out there for you?'

YIKES

Lizzy