One's Position in Society

[tracy_j]

Just a light approach to what is really an issue which is a fact of life for any MTF.

Today I had just got my lunch from the fish and chip shop I visit, and was walking back home to eat it. As I was passing another similar shop, I noticed outside a friend of mine (facing in my direction) and another male he was talking to (with his back to me). As I approached I got the opinion that he was uncertain of what to do. As I passed I waved (he was a good few yards away). I could have spoken but I could see he was talking and did not want to interrupt. He did readily say hello but carried on chatting.

All went fairly well, but the point I am trying to make is that it is male nature to be competitive and show that you are better than anyone else; ie be  top dog! When in conversation with someone who may be nominally equal is it likely that one may be worried about losing position by acknowledging someone who may well be viewed less than equal in parts of society? Women are still often thought inferior in the hierarchy of the tribe, and a friend who is in some position inbetween may be tricky to explain..

I am talking about basic animal behaviour here, rather than a refined code of conduct backed up by public  opinion and law. I was mainly reading the body language rather than speech communication and the friend is usually very friendly.

As I said - I am approaching this very lightly as more of a philosophical discussion, but it does raise questions about how to approach old friends in varying situations as our position in society changes.

However things are, they are certainly interesting and challenging.

Tracy

[Jani]

Oh how I wish I had a fish and chip shop within walking distance.

58 minutes ago, tracy_j said:

it does raise questions about how to approach old friends in varying situations as our position in society changes.

Interacting with and dealing with relationships of my friends is tricky for me.  I wasn't an overly social animal prior to transition and most of my interactions with friends centered upon our mutual hobbies.   Most time it was on things of automotive nature.  Now I still love cars but obviously my life has changed.  Not all of this change is related to transition, as age and the normal cycle of interests enter into the equation too.  I have always expected my relationships to change as I aged although I admit not knowing or understanding what that may entail.  I always hoped for the best and felt that what may be, will be.  I see being a woman in a male-centric activity as a new twist for me.  

A brief aside; I helped a friend troubleshoot a fuel problem on his truck a number last fall.  One of the first thing he mentions to me as I work to disconnect fuel lines is, "be careful of your nails".  Certainly he saw me differently even though I didn't didn't seem to.  It didn't even dawn on me until much later.    

I certainly will not abandon my friends or hobbies but I do understand they may see me differently enough that continuing as we were may be difficult due to societal norms and mores that are/may be embedded in our personal social paradigm.  I will harbor no malice because of this.  I also believe that everything has a life cycle and longterm friendships are not necessarily exempt.  

I do find the need to seek out new friendships to share things I find interesting now.   I think this is part of growing.  I will cherish old friends while embracing new ones.  

A good discussion point Tracy.  Thanks.

Jani

 

[VickySGV]

I have gotten to the point where some of my old male cronies, even those who knew in the past that we were peers as far as hobbies (Amateur Radio and related) will automatically go into "mansplaining" mode with me, and insist that they do the heavy work when I am around, and then make some of the goofiest mistakes and check to see if I was looking.  In a nutshell, they tried to do things around me, that I could easily have done if I were part of the team.  With this bunch, when I point it out, they do laugh about it.

Our changes can make some people uneasy about themselves.  I have seen Tracy's power play in action and recognize the gamesmanship involved.  I too will make what I call a general purpose greeting if I know the person sees me and has any chance of being hurt if I totally ignore them, but I give them their space and hope for a time to really say hello to them.

[MarcieMarie12]

I was lucky in that all my good friends stayed with me. But it is interesting to see the dynamics change. Part of this is me, I am sure.

When I met another friend a few days ago (it had been almost three years since seeing him--too busy with all the things my ex wanted to do), I had talked and e-mailed him more than a few times but that was about it. We talked politics since we are both very libertarian in nature, and about other things. He had a bad car accident a few years ago, and is still in intense pain from the back problems it caused. When I left, I gave him a hug rather than a handshake. It felt right. He didn't even flinch about it. My other friends are now the same way.

I've also noticed that they pay attention to me more when I speak---but that might be the self confidence I gained from finally being me rather than being a girl.  

[tracy_j]

Yes it does all get rather complex.

Thank you for the replies. There is much in common here, as like Jani, I spent a lot of my earlier times with motors, although more on motorcycles. Similarly like Vicky I was (and still am) into radio and electronics although never have an Amateur license (although another friend has been prompting quite a bit recently ).

This other friend is actually the brother of the person I mentioned in the first post and would equate to my best (male) friend. I did wonder if any word would get back to him. If there were any issues I am almost certain that he would have mentioned it, but nothing was said. He is very self centered, outspoken and I think many of you would call transphobic. He caused me all kinds of mental grief at the beginning when I came out to him (as androgyne), which almost destroyed our friendship, but I know how his mind works and read him well. I have told him that he will never understand (which I believe) and that he is actually unable to cope with transexuality. We have known each other for many years and have much in common, which includes cars (a lessor interest of mine these days), vintage electronics and radio, and music. He does have a habit of pointing out the unusual. When this comes to trans people and what they are doing I attempt to explain how they may be feeling and why they are doing what they are. I explain in a, matter or fact, way as an everyday occurrance. I don't know how much sinks in but little by little...... Maybe being open with each other, as he tends to be with his opinions, and I feel I have to be, made it very heavy for a while but it was perhaps better for a closer relationship. I can see how it is not always easy from his side though, as in particular he mentioned that some other friends he knew had joked about us being an item. I just brushed it off and pointed out that they were ribbing him but was internally amused

LIke Marcie, I am more likely to hug people these days, but usually women although occasionally men.

Tracy

[Briana]

On 6/2/2017 at 0:29 PM, Jani423 said:

Oh how I wish I had a fish and chip shop within walking distance.

Oh how I'm glad I don't...cause I'd be twice as big as I am and then some!  I love well done fish and chips. 

In general that hierarchy exists with males and females - to me like the pack mentality and the alpha male and female  or "pecking order" etc.  Throw in the transgender variable and things can get complicated.

I have some old friends that are (...or have become) comfortable with me.  But throw in social situations with mutual friends or acquaintances and things change.  For example, I have one that I always did a lot of target shooting with.  Trap, skeet, small bore pistol & rifle.  He's good when we do this solo.  In fact, I actually like him better because now he's far more pleasant with me.  The competitive @!*%ishness has gone away and a more relaxed fun version has showed up.  But throw in "some of the guys" and that dynamic totally changes.  

Work is even more tricky.  I feel I could write a book on it still not cover it.  In the end, I found it much easier to move on to a new organization, different state and start new.  While not perfect, so far, it's much better and easier to navigate my days.