Am I alone in being this way ?

[Martyn]

Hi All, I’m male aged 47 and I’ve only recently discovered I’m non binary. Just over two years ago after a lifetime of putting up with things I finally admitted to my wife that I have always hated body hair, what then followed was various stages of full body shaving , waxing and now laser treatment along with also taking anti-androgen meds to try and reduce / remove the body hair.
Along that journey I then started to question my gender and had gender counselling to help with understanding myself during this process.  It has become clear that I very strongly prefer the feminine type skin appearance along with preferring the more feminine type clothes, shirts specifically - I have been buying numerous men’s floral shirts along with a couple of female ones. My criteria for the female shirts are quite firm, they must be made in the same style as male shirts, have no frills ect and no feminine type fastenings anywhere, these criteria are self imposed and are where i feel comfortable.
My question is, are they many people like me or do most want to appear more feminine beyond my preference for smooth feminine type skin and wearing feminine shirts mixed with male clothing? 
Many thanks
Martyn

[Jani]

Hi Martyn.  You've expressed a desire for feminine type clothing in the past and I certainly do not think you alone.  That you have criteria set out tells me you are focused on how you wish to present and be seen.  This is good and fine.  It means (to me at least) that you are in control and being rational about it.  I was somewhat of a paradox since I would dress conservatively at work for the most part, but could be totally androgynous when out and about.  I enjoyed bold colors and patterns.  I would tailor my own shirts and slacks to be fit and trim.  I disliked loose, baggy fitting clothes.   So, are there others similar to you?  Yes, I would say so.  Have fun!

Jani  

[VickySGV]

You are far from alone, I belong to a group of almost 50 people who are about 50% gender queer with more binary MTFs at 30% and binary FtM people being the rest.   One nice thing about my singing friends is that none of us really looks at the style of the others, and I do occasionally go wearing more masculine wear and it is such a mixture that no one cares or judges unless someone asks to an opinion.  Another term for what you are describing in Metro Sexual appearance, although it really  is not a sexual orientation per se. It is not frilly or "girly" but is extremely well thought out wardrobing that has a colorfulness and is clean crisp and well fitting.  It does have a touch of gayness to it, but most men are heterosexual.  The ones I know do cause minor problems for their spouses since they will  dress a little more than their spouses in public. 

[Martyn]

10 hours ago, Jani said:

That you have criteria set out tells me you are focused on how you wish to present and be seen.  This is good and fine.  It means (to me at least) that you are in control and being rational about it.  

Jani  

Hi Jani, yes control does feel important, I’m enjoying having fun trying things out within my limits but being mindful at the same time not to upset my family with the changes I desire and choose.

[Martyn]

9 hours ago, VickySGV said:

You are far from alone, 

The ones I know do cause minor problems for their spouses since they will  dress a little more than their spouses in public. 

Thank you Vicky, yes on here there are those who seem to have similar outlooks, but it’s out in the real world that I’m feeling rather alone in my beliefs and outlook.

Trying hard to keep things balanced with home life so as not to upset my wife.

 

[Terry]

To be honest I think it's an age thing. Amongst people our age (I'm just a few years younger than you) gender is still a fairly binary thing. It seems to be totally different for younger folks, 20 or younger.

 

Where it's different for me personally is in the asexual community. There seems to be some kind of connection between asexuality and being gender non-conforming, in particular on the non-binary / agender spectrum (just coincidence? nobody knows yet...) . I've met a lot of other asexuals in real life, and many of them don't fit into the gender binary, at least to some extent.

[Martyn]

From my original post things have sadly taken a big turn for the worst. I had been slowly introducing a couple of female shirts into my wardrobe and wearing them alternating between those and male floral shirts, I thought I was gaining acceptance with my wife and son but sadly it all erupted and my wife gave an ultimatum either the shirts go or I do? My son has disowned me and the three of us have just fallen apart as a family.

through desperation I have thrown out the shirts and have had to mentally box my thoughts and feelings away regarding how I want to be in order to keep the family together. Of course I don’t want to loose my wife or son but I feel anger and grief that it has to be this way.

i have made an appointment to see my gender counsellor in the morning to try and help work though this.

 I am very much feeling alone in my wanting to be the way I feel inside, it’s been the most emotional time ever lately, can’t do this much more.

[Susan R]

Hi Martin.  I can relate to this situation in a somewhat limited sort of way.  I don't believe you are the only one having to box your freedom of expression through dressing in mixed feminine clothing.  I have a wife who I love dearly and as hard as it is to admit, I would likely give up everything including my transition, HRT, and my freedom of expression in order to keep her as my wife if push came to shove.  I tell myself the opposite but it's such a high cost either way.  I just hope I'm not on the other end of an ultimatum but the odds are not good.

 

So far she has not constricted me in any way except laughing quietly at me about my long shaped nails when my visiting son-in-law noticed them.  She's not especially supportive of me transitioning or being on HRT.  I sometimes wear my few unisex shirts (ladies tees with feminine necklines) and always wear my unisex undies (ladies white/black cotton Jockeys or my Genius unisex spandex boy shorts with no front opening). That much seems to be ok with her and always has during our 21 years together.  My wife is also in the dark to a degree as to how deep this transitional rabbit hole might go...or maybe I'm just be fooling myself...who knows?  

 

I avoid the subject for the most part and restrict my overt crossdressing to when she isn't around.  It hasn't interested her and I hate to stir the pot.  Recently, however, I've been doing more girly things with her like coloring her hair, going ladies clothes shopping (for her, of course) and going with her to the beauty salon for a haircut.  She has enjoyed me doing these with her but I doubt she would like doing these things if I was the focus.  It's a small start in the right direction but I'm taking it very slow.

 

Susan R?

[Martyn]

Thank you Susan, it seems though that to save my marriage I need to slow down a great deal, if I’m honest I want it all now like most on here I’m sure, but keeping my marriage intact must come first however much that may frustrate me.

[Martyn]

Thank you Mary, yes times are very difficult, 19 years of marriage is at stake and I’m scared sh*tless, life is crumbling in front of me because of my selfishness, it’s hard now, very hard

[jae bear]

6 minutes ago, Martyn said:

because of my selfishness,

 Martyn,  please don’t think this way, this is untruthful as you’re only trying to live authentically. The idea that people never change is a falsehood, people are constantly changing, they get older, they get skinnier, they get fatter, they lose hair, they buy wigs and hairpieces, etc. etc. 

 There is nothing wrong with simply adjusting the way that you dress, but others may be having problems with the perception in public and with family that they have to face, and the problems that they see for themselves whether they are real or imagined.  The reality here is that they are being selfish, not the other way around. I hate to say this, but your family members are not thinking of you Or your well-being, they are thinking of themselves and their own image that might be in jeopardy of it’s  “unchangingness”  in the eyes of others. This is not something you’re forcing upon them, you are not forcing family disintegration or spousal non-support, but you may have brought forward something important they have to think about, it’s actually just a choice. You’re asking them to change their opinion of you, a choice that is theirs to make, but you’re not forcing upon them anything else, they simply need to decide whether or not they will accept you, and if they will not accept you as yourself there is another side to being married and the traditional nuclear family.

I know this is a frightening thought, that every fiber in your being fights against it, that the fear you have of losing your family and your spouse is so great you can hardly function once the idea enters your head.  Believe me when I tell you I’ve been there, and I moved through it, it was not easy, but I am fast approaching a place where my exwife and I are friends, and I’m working diligently to rebuild a better relationship with my child. As time passes things get better, but for me personally I do know if I could not accept myself and move forward they were going to lose me either way, You may need to consider and carefully weigh the consequences to yourself if you don’t allow authenticity...  their actions are on them not you, what you think might be the end is not, just a different pathway, one that might be greener if you allow yourself to be authentic. Granted it will be rocky at first, but finding a pathway that fulfills you personally and allows you to be authentic is going to take one big shift to find the path You previously ignored.

 It is not a marital cardinal Sin to be honest with your spouse, however your spouse make commit a cardinal sin by turning her back up on you, is this the right kind of spouse for you? I had to answer this question myself, my answer was no, a spouse who would turn her back will no longer be my spouse, but a downgrade to friend might be OK.

 Hugs, 

Jackie

[Martyn]

Just now, jae bear said:

You’re asking them to change their opinion of you, a choice that is there is to make, but you’re not forcing upon them anything else, they simply need to decide whether or not they will accept you

Thank you Jackie, from my son’s and wife’s perspective they are disgusted by the way I am, also knowing I want top surgery to remove my breast tissue completely before I start taking ‘E’ to avoid breast growth they totally disagree with my thought process and think it’s selfish of me to put them through all that, and then start taking ‘E’ for the effects that I hope to achieve. they don’t understand nor want too.

 

[Martyn]

Just now, MaryMary said:

Exploring to find ourselves or trying to change things in our life to match who we are should not be considered "selfishness". On the other hand if someone have a sexual orientation and preferences we should not put pressure on them to like us 

Thank you Mary, yes I agree, though the issue that my wife keeps bringing up is she doesn’t want to go to bed with a female, I have tried so many times to reassure her that I don’t want to transition, I’ll still be physically male, but she doesn’t see it that way at all.

[jae bear]

 I completely understand, I have been there too. You probably won’t need to worry too much about that breast tissue, it often doesn’t grow as much as you might think. Until you have breast tissue to remove I don’t think you would want to do anything about it. And I’m not certain, but even If you remove a lot of breast tissue in advance I don’t believe it will stop new tissue from growing...  again, don’t worry about this too much, you’re on a pathway that may not be perfectly clear at the moment, you may decide somewhere down the road that modest breast tissue that only you know about suits you just fine. Then again any sports bra will flatten that straight out No matter how much breast tissue you get. I was very happy to receive a relatively good amount of breast tissue personally, some of my friends are quite envious, but I can tell you a Non-padded sports bra Put on backwards negates all of it in five seconds.

 Hugs, 

Jackie

[jae bear]

 I have heard your spouses words echoed from my own, “no girls in my bed” sounds awfully familiar. Again, people change, it doesn’t sound to me like there really will be a girl in her bed next to her, but that’s one large ultimatum for her to make in my estimation, personally I wouldn’t do that to my own spouse... She may be saying these things out of fear, fear of the unknown, fear of loss, and with time she may find those fears are unfounded.

 Hugs, 

Jackie

[ChickenLittle]

Hey Martyn-- I don't have a lot to add that hasn't already been said. But I want you to know that you are not being selfish. It's unfair and unrealistic for anybody to expect a person to look the same forever. I'm sorry your family is reacting this way and saying such hurtful things to you. And to speak to the question you asked in the original post-- you're definitely not the only one. In fact, the way you describe your clothing and grooming preferences, you sound so much like my best friend who has been slowly working their way through their thoughts on gender. I wish I could give you a big hug. Keep on reaching out for support, we're here for you! ❤️ 

[Martyn]

3 hours ago, ChickenLittle said:

 the way you describe your clothing and grooming preferences, you sound so much like my best friend who has been slowly working their way through their thoughts on gender. I wish I could give you a big hug. Keep on reaching out for support, we're here for you! ❤️ 

Thank you ChickenLittle, its been a slowly does it approach with exception to the past few months when I have wanted to experiment more and accelerate things, in hindsight I can see it’s become too much too soon for my wife and son, I hope by slowing down a lot I might be able to recover things? It’s very apparent though I’ve gone too far too soon which has been disastrous for our relationships at home - hugs always very welcome thank you :0)

[Martyn]

4 hours ago, jae bear said:

She may be saying these things out of fear, fear of the unknown, fear of loss, and with time she may find those fears are unfounded.

 Hugs, 

Jackie

Thank you Jackie, yes I do hope that’s true, I guess the fear of the unknown and possible loss are at the core of her thinking, but like you say with time those thoughts may be unfounded.

[Martyn]

4 hours ago, MaryMary said:

yeah, you seem to be engaged on a path similar to mine. It's really hard to put it back in a box after coming out. At the end my ex was seeing "Mary" as a competitor and was very bitchy with her even though she's never like that usually. Things were getting strange and fast.

Thank you Mary, yes the thought of having to conceal my inner feelings is not plesant at all, I’ve been so enjoying the new me, I’ve been feeling happier and more content inside although it’s been very difficult to visually express my feelings due to my wife and son not approving.

my wife said yesterday that she felt she’s lost me to my non binary female - I wish I could put her mind at rest over all this but we seem to be at logger heads at the moment :0(

[Martyn]

4 hours ago, jae bear said:

You probably won’t need to worry too much about that breast tissue, it often doesn’t grow as much as you might think.

Thank you again Jackie, if I’m honest though it’s me that’s most frightened of developing breast growth, although I’m very comfortable with the other side effects it’s the breast growth that would upset me most, hence my suggestion of removing all the breast tissue before starting ‘E’.

[jae bear]

 Personally I would not engage in such an invasive surgical procedure without needing it first, and just for reference I have been through more than dozens of surgeries through my lifetime, everything from life-saving events to reconstruction, until there’s tissue growth to remove, there’s nothing to remove, you cannot remove your pectoral muscles nor would you know what  tissue to remove until it developed into breast tissue once you are on estrogen, and if you do develop tissue you could address that with surgery once it existed but I don’t believe the surgeon will do anything prior to that. Have you discussed this with your doctors yet? I’m very curious how things work for your medical needs where you are, I know it’s quite different than it is here...

 Hugs, 

Jackie

[Charlize]

On 9/21/2018 at 8:46 AM, Martyn said:

but it’s out in the real world that I’m feeling rather alone in my beliefs and outlook.

Trying hard to keep things balanced with home life so as not to upset my wife.

 

I'm out in the "real world" and it sounds like you are also living in that same world.  One of the hardest things about having gender issues is finding self acceptance.  It sounds as if your wife also finds your issues to be real.  I would suggest that you get some therapy.  I found my time with a therapist helped me find myself and once i did that i was better able to honestly face the world including my family.  Our therapists often can explain thing to our family as well.

Please don't consider surgery of any kind at this point.  The first thing for me was to simply find a path to openness  with my self and family.

 

Hugs,

 

Charlize 

[jae bear]

On 11/12/2018 at 2:54 PM, Martyn said:

my wife said yesterday that she felt she’s lost me to my non binary female

 

 Our spouses often have fears and worries that are rather unfounded, it doesn’t make those fears any less real, but I have seen with time that many of these fears are laid to rest when they don’t actually materialize . I have a good friend who has been married to her wife for a very long time, they have seen their kids grow up and have children of their own, and her wife was worried  about the very same thing. I have spoken with her wife on occasion and was pleasantly surprised to hear that even though all of those fears and worries were once there, she still allowed time to play out, and kept an open mind, these days the two of them are closer than ever,  and do everything together. One of the things I believe was very successful was that my friend included her wife in decision making processes, and typically once a month includes her wife in group therapy sessions, I don’t know if you’re going to therapy,  but couples therapy with a transgender experienced therapist might do both of you a world of good. I’m sending all the positive energy and good thoughts that I have today your way, I hope everything is moving in a positive direction for both of you. 

 Hugs, 

Jackie

[Martyn]

1 hour ago, jae bear said:

 

 Our spouses often have fears and worries that are rather unfounded, it doesn’t make those fears any less real, but I have seen with time that many of these fears are laid to rest when they don’t actually materialize . I have a good friend who has been married to her wife for a very long time, they have seen their kids grow up and have children of their own, and her wife was worried  about the very same thing. I have spoken with her wife on occasion and was pleasantly surprised to hear that even though all of those fears and worries were once there, she still allowed time to play out, and kept an open mind, these days the two of them are closer than ever,  and do everything together. One of the things I believe was very successful was that my friend included her wife in decision making processes, and typically once a month includes her wife in group therapy sessions, I don’t know if you’re going to therapy,  but couples therapy with a transgender experienced therapist might do both of you a world of good. I’m sending all the positive energy and good thoughts that I have today your way, I hope everything is moving in a positive direction for both of you. 

 Hugs, 

Jackie

Hi Jackie, yes I have been seeing a therapist, my wife has seen her once with me, she still sees me turning into a woman and nothing I do or say changed that.

the marriage has totally broken down now, she wants me out. Life’s suddenly taken a cruel turn, I don’t want to loose her but it seems I already have.

[Susan R]

20 hours ago Jae Bear said:

 

“but couples therapy with a transgender experienced therapist might do both of you a world of good”

 

I'm considering doing this with my wife.  I've only attended therapy myself.  Although this has been very helpful for me, I'm worried that my wife attends that she will find out too early through a group session that I intend to go all the way with SRS.  This may scare her if she learns too much, too quick.  I'm currently only revealing a little at a time.  I'm probably going discuss this group therapy idea next session but I think my therapist just going to say it may be too soon based on my wife's reluctance right now.  She is very aware of how my wife feels about this whole thing.

 

20 hours ago, Martyn said:

I have been seeing a therapist, my wife has seen her once with me, she still sees me turning into a woman and nothing I do or say changed that.

Martin, I was curious how your wife responded to this particular group therapy session, if you wouldn't mind sharing.  I am having trouble moving forward with wife in my transition.  So far my minimal physical changes from HRT haven't forced me to speed up my 'coming out' to others.  Right now, I'm sort of coasting a bit as far as further exposing my wife to my transition.

 

Susan R?

Edited November 16, 2018 by jae bear
Quote author changed upon Susan’s request