Old terms vs. new terms?

[GothicLucas]

Hello! I'm really fascinated by how the language we use to describe ourselves has evolved over time, and how generations seem to use different terms. When I was in high school in the early 2000's, we had "genderqueer" and the only pronouns I knew of were ze/hir. Nowadays we call those people nonbinary, and it's acceptable for people to literally make up their own personal pronouns. And I've even had young people come up and tell me they know all the popular "neo-pronouns" but have never heard of ze/hir!

 

Through this forum, a few years ago, I learned about the word "transgenderist." Nowadays, we would just say that person is transgender with no bottom dysphoria, or if meant in an unkind way, one might call them a transtrender instead. Also, it seems that among the older generation, crossdressers are considered transgender. Young people make a strict distinction that crossdressers are not transgender, but I think they may have limited knowledge of what crossdressing actually means to many people who do it.

Even in the mere 4 years since I started this journey in 2014, the vocab has changed. People used to insist that genderqueer and nonbinary were two different things, and "neutrois" was falling into favor as another option. Terms like "masculine of center" were common back then but almost unheard of now. I never completely understood what masculine of center meant, but I think it was for afab people who identified as women, but not as cis women, because they felt manly on the inside and incorporated some of this into their gender expression. And you could have feminine of center men, of course. Once again, nowadays we'd just call those people nonbinary.

Do you have anything to add? I think this is a lot of fun.

I do have one question about the word "androgyne." It doesn't seem to be used much by young people (mostly teens), but it seems to bear some  greater significance among people who transitioned some decades past. Was it used to describe a specific subset of people, similar to the "masculine of center" usage? To me it just means "both man and woman at once," but I wondered if it originally referred to people who transitioned and then took a step back and straddled the line between man and woman, or anything like that.

If this isn't fun or interesting for you, please don't feel obligated to post. I'm also really sorry if  this offends anyone, because none was intended! I know that there are some trans people who are strictly women or men, and that there's nothing fun about the transgender experience for some people.

[ChickenLittle]

This is such an interesting topic! I tend to take the perspective that any word a person wants to use to describe themself is fine with me. Interestingly, when I hear the term transsexual, my first emotional response is that it's a derogatory word or slur (though it's clear to me that many people don't feel that way-- I think part of it may be the area I grew up in and the fact that I heard the word used in a negative way so often). I think that there's definitely a generational difference between terms people use, as well as maybe geographical differences. I clearly remember growing up in Kansas and feeling strongly that "queer" was a slur, then I moved to a different community that used the term to self-identify and decided I really liked it. 

 

I'm fairly young (coming up on 30) and before I came out I sometimes used "masculine-of-center." I still don't feel that I have a great grasp on all the different terms people have started using (like neutrois). 

 

I love watching language evolve, though I feel like most cis people I talk to feel completely overwhelmed and intimidated by it all, and they're always scared of saying the wrong thing. 

[Susan R]

I've mentioned this before in one of my earlier posts.  For many years, I attended at weekly meeting at the Seattle Counseling Service on Capitol Hill back in the mid-1980's.  Maybe a few of you here were members with me back then. It was a wonderful group and I still really miss the friends I made.  The TV/TS group consisted of 15 and sometimes 20 regulars.  Every few weeks, we always had a few new visitors and sometimes a guest speaker.  It was a much simpler time as there was only really thought to be 3 groups; questioning, transexual (TS), or transvestite (TV). By the time I moved and had to stop attending the group, they had already stopped using the term "transvestite" and replaced it with the label "crossdresser".  Fast forward 30+ years...it's all changed.

 

Susan R?

[ChickenLittle]

Just now, Susan R said:

I've mentioned this before in one of my earlier posts.  For many years, I attended at weekly meeting at the Seattle Counseling Service on Capitol Hill back in the mid-1980's.  Maybe a few of you here were members with me back then. It was a wonderful group and I still really miss the friends I made.  The TV/TS group consisted of 15 and sometimes 20 regulars.  Every few weeks, we always had a few new visitors and sometimes a guest speaker.  It was a much simpler time as there was only really thought to be 3 groups; questioning, transexual (TS), or transvestite (TV). By the time I moved and had to stop attending the group, they had already stopped using the term "transvestite" and replaced it with the label "crossdresser".  Fast forward 30+ years...it's all changed.

 

Susan R?

 

That's so interesting! Until I read your comment I had never really understood the distinction between the way transsexual and transvestite were used. 

[Robin]

Whilst it is obviously great that people can have the language to accurately identify themselves, as a newcomer to transgender society, I find the number of different categories a bit bewildering.  The are now so many gender identities, that it seems that every individual can create their own gender. 

 

This has definitely caused a negative effect among cis people, as many do not take the idea of so many genders seriously.  I have to admit that I am not totally convinced that all of the identities are valid.

 

Robin.

[AsTheCrow]

I get that viewpoint, but because no one of us is the arbiter of what is and isn't real, and what is and isn't transgender, it is vital that we accept and include all branches of the trans family tree, regardless of our personal opinions.

 

If we can't accept and love one another, and one another's identities, how can we expect cis folks to accept and love us? Inclusion begins with us.

 

Fortunately, we don't have to know every single new term in order to embrace them all. We just have to have an attitude of love and acceptance.

[SugarMagnolia]

See, here's the thing. Only YOU get to decide if your identity is valid. Other people can think, what they want, say what they want and question it however they like, but NO ONE can tell you how you feel better than you.

This isn't about making people comfortable or having them embrace us. And this surely is not about deciding who's valid and who isn't because who's the judge and what justifies them deciding who's valid?

If we want people to believe us when we say we identify a certain way than we need to believe others doing the same thing in a slightly different way.

[Robin]

I certainly agree with what both of you have said, and I am not suggesting that anyone should disrespect another person's identity.  However, I still find gender identities such as helicopter or science fiction character difficult to understand.  Some of these things may well be valid identities, but not necessarily gender identities.

 

I may be wrong, but I believe that the most masculine is male, and the most feminine is female.  I believe that any gender must be somewhere between these two extremes.  I also accept that some people do not identify with either gender, but that doesn't mean that they can say that their gender is a vacuum cleaner, or some other random object.

 

I am sorry if my views are offensive, and I am happy to be corrected if my observations are wrong.

 

Robin.

[SugarMagnolia]

I understand, Robin. I'm certainly not upset at you personally. I just find the idea of deciding on whether someone else's identity is valid to be problematic. 

That being said, I had not seen helicopter or science fiction character as gender identities. Those are interesting. Are those real ones or just hypotheticals? I'd be interested in details if you have any. Seems fascinating!

I try not to concern myself with understanding someone else's identity, but rather focusing on supporting them and learning from them. I also think that focusing on extremely rare corner cases (vacuum cleaner, helicopter, etc) is not terribly productive. Who does it hurt and how often is it actually relevant other than to the person involved? If it makes them happy and doesn't hurt anyone else, then I'm good. ?

 

[AsTheCrow]

"I identify as an attack helicopter" is a common joke amongst transphobes on the internet, the idea being if trans people can identify as something other than the gender assigned at birth, anyone can identify as anything. It's a way of amusing themselves by mocking us, and a way of robbing us of our right to identify as we please by making the notion appear ludicrous.

 

As a reaction to this behavior, some trans people on the internet have begun playfully claiming to identify as flowers or sandwiches or fictional characters.

 

These actions are not to be confused with actual identities.

[Jani]

That argument just shows the lack of understanding as these folks typically pick something a human could not be, like a helicopter or an animal.  We are not changing our human form, but just our identity (which is personal) and expression (which the public sees).  

[AsTheCrow]

Well said.

[SugarMagnolia]

That makes sense. I'd hoped it was something like that. Thank you! 

[GothicLucas]

I agree with all of you to some extent. I wonder about some of the people I've run across, and some of the identities and pronouns. But I think it's so important to make sure that everyone feels validated and supported. Gatekeeping runs the risk of keeping out people who really need our community. I would rather let a few legitimately bad eggs in...they'll drop the pretense someday, anyway. True, they're not good for publicity, but being trans isn't a show for the pleasure of non-trans people.

Going back to the original topic, I had not thought about there being regional differences as well as generational ones, but I definitely see it now. Very fascinating.