Hb Standards Say

[Guest Leigh]

i was just looking the standards over, since i had read through the DSM standards but not the HBS.

and in the paragraph headed "Natural History of Gender Identity Disorders" it says that most of us outgrow our desire to change genders..................

i want to know where they get their statistics, and what kind of criteria they have to decide what a "changed gender" is..

i mean. i am never gonna out grow this. it's not a phase. it's not like i'm unhappy with my social situation and am taking it out on my female gendered body.

i just don't feel right in this body. i want my moobs to go away. i want a fully functional penis (but i'll take what i can get...). you guys know what i'm talking about

and i'm sure the ladies feel the same, only in reverse...

not to mention, what about trans people who don't fall into the ftm/mtf categories? do they not count as ppl who change gender?

just curious what you all think about this.

peace&love

leigh

[Guest Pól]

What do I think?

First reaction: ?!?@$@£%*@£(!@))*!??!??????

Second reaction: Are they including tomboys in this? As in girls who are girls who play with boys and not 'girls' who are in fact boys (and vice versa with all the genders reversed).

Third thought: latest revision is 8 years old.

Fourth thought: if the statistic isn't cited, it's crap.

[Guest ~Brenda~]

Dearest Leigh,

The majority group of individuals who are transgendered are "late stage transgendered" this means it is typical for a transgendered person not to identify that they are trans until middle-age or later. Due to upbringing and other life dynamics, a transgendered person may not recognize fully that they are transgendered until they are at a later stage of life. This fact obviates the notion that being trans is a phase and one will grow out of it. Hon, regardless of what you read, I can say, that being trans is forever until you transition. For myself, I was expressing femininity from childhood, was programmed to be a "man", now I am here at Laura's identifying as MTF. A phase? Growing out of it? NO, I don't think so. I am 48 years old, I am still trans, my only real hope is to transition, not grow out of it!!

LOL

bernii

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Some studies are not worth much... I think you found one of those.... pile of doo doo

Grin

Lizzy

Yes honey - definately the other way - hee hee

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Like Pól says, if they don't cite a source for their statistic, it's all bunk. For the statistic to mean anything, they need to give us a reference group. How are they defining transgender?

I didn't grow out of being trans. It took me years and years to figure out that's what I was. For a long time I assumed that NO ONE in their right mind would want to be female. The dice were cast and you had a 50/50 chance at either. I figured anyone in my position would be as annoyed as me. I had no idea I was at all unusual.

At this point in my life, I'm pretty sure no one understands transgender people except for other transgender people.

[Guest Leigh]

I didn't grow out of being trans. It took me years and years to figure out that's what I was. For a long time I assumed that NO ONE in their right mind would want to be female. The dice were cast and you had a 50/50 chance at either. I figured anyone in my position would be as annoyed as me. I had no idea I was at all unusual.

At this point in my life, I'm pretty sure no one understands transgender people except for other transgender people.

lol...yeah, i used to think the same thing. i mean, i know *I* don't want to be female..so why would anyone else...lol..

but, i mean, the ladies clearly prove us wrong.

yeah, i just wish that these people weren't the ones writing our standards of care...

peace&love all

leigh

[Guest Evan_J]

Hmmm, dunno, maybe what they meant to say was "the majority won't want to have surgery" or something. Could've been a poorly defined statement inferring that being transgendered does not automatically mean desiring surgical/medical alterations. (Remembering the statement that most trans people can be alleviated by clothing and presentation of the gender.)

[Guest Zabrak]

Issue with that is I didn't even know I was trans before I was able to put a word to how I felt about myself. So no, I don't think you outgrow it if you've had these thoughts for so long. That 'info' is also super bad based on the facts that theres trans that are 60+.

[Guest Donna Jean]

LOL!....Oh my goodness.....

OMG...I've got it all backwards...I didn't grow out of it!

I grew INTO it!....lol

I'm 59...gonna have the sugery and I'm pretty sure that this isn't a "Phase".....HAaaa ha ha ...

OH my...that was a good one.....lol

Donna Jean

[Guest Leigh]

yeah, i know right...we all seem to have the same reaction to it....

those cwazy psychologists....

but you may be right about the clothes and passing thing, Evan.. still. it was very poorly worded if that's what they meant.

peace&love

leigh

[Guest Leah1026]

Like Pól says, if they don't cite a source for their statistic, it's all bunk. For the statistic to mean anything, they need to give us a reference group. How are they defining transgender?

That's the rub. You see they aren't speaking about transgender, they're speaking about anyone who exhibits gender variant behavior. And their statistics are correct, most do outgrow it...... but....... they are gay! Many gays and lesbians were first identified as gender variant before they later came out as gay. And seeing as they (gays/lesbians) outnumber us by two or three orders of magnitude you can easily see that YES most gender variant children do outgrow their perceived dysphoria, they just fail to mention that these folks aren't straight either.

Also, if somebody is going to "outgrow" their dysphoria, they usually do by about age 12. This is statistically of great importance to us because the ones who don't are almost always trans and are therefore eligible to start blockers and then HRT at 16. Although this is a well known statistic within the gender field, the general public still tends to freak when they hear it. The statistics don't lie folks.

Thank God we have the resources we do today.

[Guest angie]

Who that example is talking about is children without saying it.

I have read the studies saying that many children have periods

where they say they wish they were another gender.Most out grow

that phase.Many,the ones truly born wrong gendered,know it very

early on and never back off that we know we were.Even if we never

told anybody,we knew in our heart of hearts.

Angie

[Guest Joanna Phipps]

Most ppl grow out of the desire to change gender do they...hmmmm... this is one woman who is growing into it

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

That's the rub. You see they aren't speaking about transgender, they're speaking about anyone who exhibits gender variant behavior. And their statistics are correct, most do outgrow it...... but....... they are gay! Many gays and lesbians were first identified as gender variant before they later came out as gay. And seeing as they (gays/lesbians) outnumber us by two or three orders of magnitude you can easily see that YES most gender variant children do outgrow their perceived dysphoria, they just fail to mention that these folks aren't straight either.

Also, if somebody is going to "outgrow" their dysphoria, they usually do by about age 12. This is statistically of great importance to us because the ones who don't are almost always trans and are therefore eligible to start blockers and then HRT at 16. Although this is a well known statistic within the gender field, the general public still tends to freak when they hear it. The statistics don't lie folks.

Thank God we have the resources we do today.

You've said it well. The scientific community doesn't do a good job of distinguishing between gender variant behavior and cross gender identification. That means the statistic doesn't reflect what they say it does because it's including a hodge-podge of different people who shouldn't necessarily be lumped together as a single group.

I'd imagine that most kids do NOT outgrow cross gender identification.

Also, just the idea of outgrowing something could be misleading. If they define "outgrow" as "not displaying the behavior anymore", that means something completely different from defining it as "not having those feelings anymore".

Research is a messy business. Like Leah said, thankfully we have access to better information now than in the past.

[Guest Donna Jean]

Heck........

73.5% of statistics are made up anyway!

And 54/37 percent of people can't do fractions!

Ain't no thang......

Donna Jean

[Guest Isabella]

Wasn't it just a few decades back that these experts considered lombotomy the answer?

[Guest Leah1026]

Wasn't it just a few decades back that these experts considered lombotomy the answer?

Yes.. Lobotomies, electro-shock therapy, sedatives, psychotropic drugs, anti-depressants, psychotherapy, aversion therapy, birth sex hormones, admission to psych hospitals, you name it, they tried it on us.

All FAILED.

The only thing that works is medical/social transition.

In the grand scheme of things society is the one with dysphoria, not us. They can't handle naturally occurring biological diversity. Or as Milton Diamond summed up so well:

"Nature loves diversity, society hates it."

[Guest Nikki A]

Heck........

73.5% of statistics are made up anyway!

And 54/37 percent of people can't do fractions!

Ain't no thang......

Donna Jean

um I was just in stat, and I'm pretty sure it's 82.3% of statistics I bull, but don't quote me on that!!

Outgrow, that would almost be nice to have a socially acceptable solution of it being a phase, but I would rather be me! If it ain't me it ain't me!! I iz no grow biggerer for fix problem! (by this I mean, I have gone from thinking I was just overanalysing my own feelings to knowing what my deal is) I was in denile during my adolesent years, but grew to accept myself! I knew I was right when I was five! Hah!!!

Hugz, Nikki

[Guest Joanna Phipps]

You've said it well. The scientific community doesn't do a good job of distinguishing between gender variant behavior and cross gender identification. That means the statistic doesn't reflect what they say it does because it's including a hodge-podge of different people who shouldn't necessarily be lumped together as a single group.

I'd imagine that most kids do NOT outgrow cross gender identification.

Also, just the idea of outgrowing something could be misleading. If they define "outgrow" as "not displaying the behavior anymore", that means something completely different from defining it as "not having those feelings anymore".

Research is a messy business. Like Leah said, thankfully we have access to better information now than in the past.

Many times the child doesnt out grow it, we are all living proof of that, they are forced by society to conform to a set of noms, morals and mores based on the SEX they present to the world. The main problem is that the mass media has managed to get the average person to think that gender == bio sex; we, and those who support us, know this is not the case. As my GP told me at my last appointment, we truly dont know what gender actully is.

Unlike sex which is inborn and in most cases immutable, gender seems to be much more complex, much more fluid. It seems to be comprised of not only hormonal things but also psychological and psycho-social factors. Given enough time and research I think it is going to be found that gender is immutable too, the only reason it appears otherwise is becuase of those of us who have to transition to get to the correct one.

[Guest Jeannine Bean]

It took me years and years to figure out that's what I was. For a long time I assumed that NO ONE in their right mind would want to be female. The dice were cast and you had a 50/50 chance at either. I figured anyone in my position would be as annoyed as me. I had no idea I was at all unusual.

Thanks for sharing that. I had precisely the same experience in reverse. I was 24, and in a sociology class when I found out that when researchers questioned people about permanently changing their sex, almost everyone was absolutely horrifed at the thought of it, biological men even slightly more than women. It made a weird impression on me because until then I always assumed and belived and felt at a core level that there was no possibility that anyone out there actually liked being a man or considered themselves a man...

I just thought that was normal, LOL... the thought of actually identifying with being male made so little sense to me that I took it entirely for granted that everyone felt like me.

It still strikes me as weird. I just can't begin to relate at all to men in that regard.

Thanks for reminding me of that, because I haven't thought about that for years...

And some people who ask me about these feelings might want to hear that story!

--Jeannine

[Guest ChloëC]

I'm curious to know exactly what outgrowing something actually means. Like somehow it can be lumped in with what some call 'childish' behavior that is eventually 'outgrown' My moods swing, I do different things. I happen to enjoy playing basketball, but some of my joints aren't enjoying it much anymore. So, I pretty much stopped several years ago. Have I 'outgrown' it? No, I've just had to change my priorities.

There are a number of activities I used to do including some actual paying jobs. I don't do them anymore and I probably don't have any interest in doing them. Did I outgrow them? Does that mean anything I used to do but don't do anymore, I have 'outgrown'?

It would seem to in the sense that society in general and dubious 'scientific' reports that don't define their terminology would suggest. And that is absurd.

[Guest N. Jane]

Doesn't that quote come directly from Dr. Ken Zucker?

We all know his prejudices!

[Guest angie]

I read that in a medical study,it is not made up.

The only children who consistently say they are not the gender

they were born are transsexual children.Many kids say they would

like to be a boy or girl,that does not mean they know they are like

we did.And some trans aren't even aware of their true self until a

tramatic situation arises and the question of why they never felt fully

right in gender wakes them from a deep slumber.This happens to both

the men and the woman.For I have met both kinds,the ones like myself,

who were always aware of being born wrong gendered.And those who

wokeup one day to realise their true gender.There is no one true path

for who is a transsexual.

Angie