Question On California Prop. 8?

[Guest Amy LeBlanc]

Hello All:

Now I dont know if you all know about the California Prop. 8 that was on the election last year, but it was a big controversy over the whole thing. But I want to know what everyone has to say about it or not?

I myself is for the prop. 8 and believe that everyone should have the same right. I do know that this can be a touchy subject but just want to know what everyone else thinks?

Amy

[Guest anyushka]

Just to be clear,

Prop 8 amended the California Constitution to say that a Marriage is defined Only as being between a man and a woman.

I personally am against Prop 8 because I do not believe that separate is equal. While same sex marriage was legal in California I ended up in the Emergency Room. When I said "This is my wife" no one questioned her being there. I ended up in the Emergency Room again recently. She had to show our marriage license to be allowed to remain with me.

Domestic Partnership does not grant the same rights, responsibilities and tax breaks that a Marriage does. "Separate but Equal" was ruled no show thing back in the 60s. I disagree with trying to change that just because some people believe that being gay or transgendered is a "choice."

My two cents,

anyushka

[Guest mia 1]

name='Amy LeBlanc' date='Oct 27 2009, 08:40 PM' post='122879']

Hello All:

Now I don't know if you all know about the California Prop. 8 that was on the election last year, but it was a big controversy over the whole thing. But I want to know what everyone has to say about it or not?

I myself is for the prop. 8 and believe that everyone should have the same right. I do know that this can be a touchy subject but just want to know what everyone else thinks?

Amy

You mean to say you are against prop 8 and for same sex and varying degrees of gender I.D. marriage...YES?

[Guest BeardedMan]

Prop 8 was a disaster. I voted against it, and never believed California would pass it. Many of us are still in shock.

That said, the group Californians against Hate has uncovered some questionable involvement on the part of the National Organization for Marriage and the Mormon Church, with implications that these groups unfairly interfered and are continuing to do so not only here but in places like Iowa and Maine where gay marriage is legal.

Anyushka is right: "separate but equal" is a lie that was exposed long ago. Of course, there was also that judge who wouldn't even grant interracial marriages as recently as a month ago...

-- Beard

[Carolyn Marie]

I just heard the results of a new national poll that said that at least 55 per cent of people nationwide now believe same sex marriage should be permitted.

The times they are a changin - for the better! Let's have a redo of Prop 8. This time I bet we win!

Carolyn Marie

[Guest Joanna Phipps]

Many of you have heard from me just how schizophrenic New Mexico is when it comes to gender rights. They give us full protection as long as we dont need to use a public bathroom. They wont pass same sex marriage laws but come up with some ridiculous form of domestic partnership that keeps neither the LGBT crowd nor the rest of the public happy, the marriage laws (when it comes to marriages performed out of state) are vague, it says they are recognized but says nothing about what happens when a het marriage becomes a same sex one due to transition of one of the partners

Im just a confused tansgal

[Guest MissAmy]

Since I'm heterosexual I don't really have worries about same-sex marriage affecting me, it should be legal everywhere. Even if you get married in one of the U.S. states that allow it, there are only 2 more states that will even recognize it. Obama and congress needs to make a federal law for every state to at least recongize it.

It's a shame every politician is scared of getting less votes by supporting same-sex marriage. We'd would've probably seen a very slow case of interracial marriage through congress if it wasn't for Loving v. Virginia which got the Supreme Court to rule that kind of marriage was perfectly moral and legal.

[Guest ricka]

My brother and his husband in CA will be celebrating their first wedding anniversary on Sunday--they were married 3 days before the Prop 8 vote and their marriage is still considered legal. (Ha! have you ever shopped for an approp. anniversary card for a gay couple???------Hallmark, get with the times!!!) Now that the US District Court in SF ruled that the Prop 8 folks have to turn over their campaign information (Did y'all read Judge Stephens' decision and excerpts from his press statement?) there will be a lot of interesting information coming to light I guarantee it.

Joanna sounds like you are a real activist in NM. Horray for you! I urge all of you to be activists on whatever level you are able to pass non-discrimination/equality laws and work for public education in your state/province/town. Last month I persuaded my employer to hire a consultant to do sensitivity training for all the employees about GLBTQ issues and rights. Education does start at home. I was allowed to select and hire a trainer who did a wonderful job which was inclusive of trans people (she did a little exercise which demonstrated how the majority of us are "trans" in some sense!)

I am soooo proud of Basic Rights Oregon with which it has been an honor to be associated the past few years to be launching a campaign in this state for insurance coverage for transgendered people.

ricka

[Guest April63]

I supported Proposition 8. I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe that that is essential to marriage and its purpose. Like many of the other supporters, I obviously do not have anything against gay people. But this is what I believe marriage to be and I do not believe it needs to be changed. Gay couples still can have many of the same rights, and since when do we need marriage to be happy here? Do we need marriage to live together? To go on vacation? To have a loving relationship? No. I believe marriage is different from that. It is more significant than that, and specifically involves a man and a woman.

Anyway, I hope my non-conforming beliefs don't offend anyone. That's not my purpose. I was just answering the question.

[Guest April63]

I'll reword my inflammatory remark:

For most of the supporters, Proposition 8 wasn't about hate, but was about the preservation of marriage between a man and a woman. There are some that really do hate gay people, but not me.

[Guest Donna Jean]

Let me throw something into the mix now.......

My wife and I have been married 30 years and we plan on remaining that way....

But, I'm transitioning...I'm female....

What happens when I am done?

It will no longer be a marriage between a man and a woman...

Two women will be legally married.

So, should we divorce?

What does anyone think that we should do?

Personally, I think that ALL marriages should be legally a civil service...those that want can also marry in the church of their choice to be joined in the eyes of their God.....

At least the civil marriage would afford all of the legal rights to the couples regardless of gender, sexual preference, or skin color!

Donna Jean

[Guest ChloëC]

This topic raises a lot of issues in my mind.

The first is, I hope people who have HBO are watching one of this month's offerings - Outrage. Which is about all the politicians (mostly on the national level) that are (or were) adamantly against any kind of gay rights but have been 'outed' to show that they are actually embracing some facet of the gay lifestyle themselves. This is the outrage here. That people can live a lifestyle in their own private lives, and then speak out against it publically. Not just vote against bills but publicly take positions against gays.

As I've mentioned to a lot of people, my feeling is that here in the U.S., the Democrats want to legislate my social responsibility and the Republicans want to legislate my morality. Neither one is anyone's business except my own. And anyone trying to do that is, in my estimation, bordering on being reprehensible, especially those that are hypocritical about their beliefs and their actions.

I also don't think that there is anything wrong with legalizing marriage between any two consenting adults. There is and should be a huge difference between civil (state recognized) unions and church recognized unions. They are not the same and should not be treated as the same. I see nothing wrong with having a quiet civil ceremony in some state office building and having another festive occasion, church approved or not, where you want. I just saw that Donna Jean agrees! Yay for support!

And April, that's a major part of the problem. Too many people in this country want to force their religious views on me. It's really none of their business. If you want to be religious, there are an awful lot of needy people both here and elsewhere that could use a truly charitable (Christian or not) helping hand. And that would do far more to help this poor old world, then telling people what they can or can't do, because the teller has certain religious beliefs.

Anyway, that's just my opinion

Chloë

[Guest Amy LeBlanc]

Hello All:

I am sorry for opening up this can of worms, but it was just on my mind and I tend to have weird thoughts. I like all of the comments here and everyone is entitled to there opinions.

I believe in some ways that any one should marry. Dont care of your man with man or woman with woman or man with woman. Its your choice.

After reading a couple of these post, and have seeing and looking around in societity, what is the true benefit of marriage? I have been seeing and hearing alot of people who hav been married that are getting divorced and that the only reason why they stayed togther was for the kids. So if people are just staying together for kids and then end up getting divorced, why should people get married?

But we are all entitled to our opinions and like how I said I am sorry about this can of worms.

Amy

[Guest Rebecca Quentin]

@ April63. I'm sorry, but I don't see how a gay couple getting married in any way denigrates a straight couples' marriage. I agree with you when you say "who needs marriage to be happy", but I think the point is that gay people currently do not have any choice in the matter; those who do not wish to get married are unaffected, but those who do are not allowed to do so.

Here in the UK we currently have civil partnerships for gay couples and marriage for straight couples. Straight people are not able to have a civil partnership if they do not wish to marry but still wish to make their relationship more formal, gay couples can have civil partnerships with the legal rights & responsibilities which that includes if they wish, but cannot marry and indeed currently, cannot either hold either civil partnership in any religious building such as a church. My oldest best friend is a christian who is in a civil partnership. She & her partner would have loved to have been allowed to marry, in a church.

By not allowing gay couples to marry the same as straight people, and not allowing straight people to hold civil partnerships, we have a two-tier system. Seperate systems like these are not equal and send out a strong message that the love between a gay couple & the love between a straight couple is not equal, it thus denigrates gay people by telling them that their love is not strong enough or worthy enough of marriage.

Like I said at the start though, I've never heard of a marriage that has broken down due to a gay couple being married. I like the Wanda Sykes joke about it, bit of a crude joke, but you can easily find it on YouTube if you type in her name and "gay marriage".

[Guest Rebecca Quentin]

Just as a side note, I tend to be very very skeptical of people who espouse socially conservative views. Sadly I've often found them to be very hypocritical. I know its easy to make any such case if you pick out individual examples of it, but to generalise it a bit further, I was surprised when I discovered (don't know if its common knowledge or not) that the highest rate of pornographic material consumption in the USA is Utah!

Also, given that the divorce rate among United States straight couples is running at something like 55-60%, I don't think they are in any position to tell anyone else they can't marry. The divorce rate isn't all that much better here in the UK by the way.

[Guest April63]

@ April63. I'm sorry, but I don't see how a gay couple getting married in any way denigrates a straight couples' marriage. I agree with you when you say "who needs marriage to be happy", but I think the point is that gay people currently do not have any choice in the matter; those who do not wish to get married are unaffected, but those who do are not allowed to do so.

I think I've explained the whole thing before. Maybe, I haven't. If you want to know PM me and I'll write it all up again.

[Guest johndoe]

Though I can't vote and I'm straight, I was and still am against it. Though I agree with the against side that marriage is between a man and woman, and the Bible says that, I do believe that 2 adults that love each other should have the same benefits that a married couple had. I heard that 70% of african-americans voted for it, and as an african-american, it makes me sad.

[Guest BeardedMan]

I'm with you, johndoe; as an African American, I'm quite distressed by the Prop 8 results here in California. And many (if not most) of those who voted for it are old enough to have been directly affected by the civil-rights activities regarding race in the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

However, Amy asked a question above that I don't think has been answered clearly: "what is the true benefit of marriage?" There are actually two answers to the question, and that points out the fact that (as mentioned earlier) what the state understands about marriage and what the church understands about marriage are (and should be, in my opinion) two separate things.

First, the state (in this case, since it's what I know about, the United States and individual states within it) gives a variety of rights to couples who are recognized as married, since the state wants to encourage social stability by encouraging family stability. There are financial benefits, such as tax, inheritance, public assistance, or life insurance benefits (depending on the state and the insurance company). Similarly, married couples automatically are understood as parents of children born to them; even in the case of a lesbian couple where one partner actually gives birth to a child, the other partner often has to apply to adopt that same child, and in some states is simply not permitted to do so. A nonmarried partner is usually not considered "next of kin," and so has difficulty (at best) getting the right to participate in medical or death-related decisions, and sometimes cannot even get to visit a hospitalized partner who is not able to directly give the ok for the visit. Rather than make this list any longer, check out this link on the legal benefits of marriage. And note the statement at the bottom that many of these benefits do not apply in civil unions.

But all of that is just on the secular side. On the religious side, the list is not as long. However, people naturally feel strongly about whatever faith they may have. Many gay people believe that their God appreciates love between any two people, and they want to be able to celebrate that love in front of both that God and the religious community of which they are a part. They may feel that without the recognition and acceptance of their church, they are "living in sin," in an unsanctioned relationship. Even if the government were to recognize their union as equal to a heterosexual one (with all of its rights and responsibilities), some churches have said they would still not recognize or endorse same-sex marriages. While this would have no effect on the law, it does have an effect on happiness: for many people, living within and being accepted by a community of faith is an important part of living a full and healthy life.

The fact that the government cannot supply the things that a religious recognition of marriage provides (community membership, support in faith), combined with the fact that religious groups have no authority to provide the things offered by governmental recognition of marriage (legal and financial rights) shows, I think, that when we say "marriage" we're really talking about two separate things that happen to go by the same name. Regardless of where you stand, I feel this is an important part of the debate.

-- Beard

[Guest Anna_Banana]

I started a similar discussion about Prop 8 over on the Politics board. I am personally against Proposition 8. The main ("friendly") argument I hear for people supporting Prop. 8 is that it "redefines" traditional marriage. Well ok, sure, traditional marriage says that marriage is between a man and woman. That's all it says. So allowing two same-sexed people to marry is a redefinition, I understand that. Yeah...big redefinition there. Nothing else radically changed. We just changed the part that says "man and woman only" to "now includes man and man and woman and woman." As far as the state is concerned, marriage is a legal prospect. Why deny homosexuals the opportunity to marry then? I don't care what the religious-right says. Last time I checked, Christianity/Judaism/Islam wasn't a pre-req for getting married. Because if it were, you better start revoking a lot of marriage licenses.

I mean, I am ready to hear good arguments as to why same-sex individuals shouldn't be allowed to marry. The common argument is "It's not natural." Well, I've got studies that show it is natural.

.Anna

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