I'll Be Damned

[Guest Sarah-hime]

I knew that there was something about this in the bible, I just didn't know where (until now)

Deuteronomy 22:5

5: "A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this."

I appreciate many of you on here may not be religious, or give a Gosh darned, or both even but I thought I'd post anyway - feel free to move post if incorrectly placed.

great - now how am I meant to feel? I thought it was alright to some degree till I saw this - now I feel just a wee bit down. - not that I'd go to hell or anything?

However, I would like to think I could get around this by inserting a loophole (courtesy of me ) - define "man" or "woman" - heck, I'd even suggest that God doesn't have a gender: He is only 'male' as this how we can comprehend such a thing.

If there are any other religious teens on here, how do you cope when you see something like this?

[MaryEllen]

This was written to the early Jewish nation. Having just come from a barbaric people it was necessary to set some guidelines for them to follow. If this were to hold true today,99% of women would be condemned for wearing trousers. Deut. 22 also says that you shall build railings about the roof of your house so people won't fall off. You shall wear tassles on the 4 conners of your clothing. You shall not wear clothing made of two different fibers. You shall not plant two different crops in the same field. The bible also says that eating meat of the pig is prohibited because it is an unclean animal. This was Old Testament law that doesn't really apply to us today. New Testament law makes no such restrictions so don't worry about it. It doesn't apply to us.

MaryEllen

[Guest savagedm]

I always love it when people bring this verse up. The reason being because if you look at the other laws in Deuteronomy they say things like NOBODY shall wear clothes made of multiple fabrics, or certain types of roofs are prohibited. However, it is also stated that the coming of Jesus is the fulfillment of the laws of Moses. This means we are no longer bound by them, thus cross dressing and all that other jazz cannot be considered a sin unless you take the REST of the laws as well. If you do this, well I can assure you that you will most likely not be on the internet here now, and living more of an agrarian lifestyle with the Amish or Quaker religions. Don't worry about it, people who use these verses are the types that take things out of context from their original intent and disregard the things that discredit them as erroneous and as if it doesn't exist. You are fine the way you are

[Guest Sarah-hime]

I know but... (*has no comment to MaryEllen's and walks away*) does this mean I ought to have known better?

[Guest savagedm]

I know but... (*has no comment to MaryEllen's and walks away*) does this mean I ought to have known better?

No, you had as much choice in this matter as the rest of us... it is something we cannot control. Ask anyone of the older members here what it is like if they suppress these questions and ignore them. Heck, I did for the better part of a decade and it tore me up inside. There is nothing wrong with being who you feel you truly are inside. I believe transgenderism is a gift from God, I truly do. I am happy to wake up in the morning knowing that I am human just like everyone else, but also something more. It is truly a blessing to be the way we are, I just wish everyone else would see it that way as well.

[MaryEllen]

I know but... (*has no comment to MaryEllen's and walks away*) does this mean I ought to have known better?

Not at all. Religious zealots have so brainwashed the general public into believing that cross dressing and transgenderism is a mortal sin that it's a wonder that any of us are sane. Those who say that we are sinners are using man made laws to justify their condemnation of us. THIS IS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. No where in the New Testament does it say that transgenderism is a sin and there is no mention of cross dressing at all. Don't worry, Lauren. You're not going to burn in hell because of this.

MaryEllen

[Guest savagedm]

This reminds me of something I once read. I'm going to paraphrase it because I cannot remember exactly where...

"It is shocking just how negative people react to one of those most harmless things a person could do... wear the clothes of the opposite sex..."

It's pretty blunt in its meaning I think.

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora all,

A bit ironic isn't because back in those days all men wore 'dresses'[robes] Think about it....

Metta Jendar

[Guest Sarah-hime]

I know MaryEllen, I was just thinking is all...

[Guest Katie-Louise]

I'm not religious so this doesn't bother me at all my brother was baptized into Christianity but I guess they couldn't be bothered with me or they just wanted me to choose my own beliefs. I have read the children's bible though because of the pritty pictures and the stories. I believe that everyone is entitled to their beliefs even whether it be a belief in religion. Lots of love

Samantha

xxx

[Guest Leah1026]

There is nothing wrong with being who you feel you truly are inside. I believe transgenderism is a gift from God, I truly do. I am happy to wake up in the morning knowing that I am human just like everyone else, but also something more. It is truly a blessing to be the way we are, I just wish everyone else would see it that way as well.

The you'll like this piece. Forgive me if I've already posted this here before.

"The Gift"

Wouldn't it be refreshing to see transsexualism viewed as a positive good instead of a negative, or at best neutral, phenomenon? Some psychologists characterize it as a sexually motivated disorder; psychiatrists treat it as an aberration imprinted by upbringing. Transsexuals themselves see it as a curse.

But what if they're all wrong? What if these characterizations fail to describe what transsexualism really is? What if instead we try to look at transsexualism as a gift; and not just any gift, but a gift created by Almighty God Himself and deliberately bestowed by Him on certain chosen individuals to fulfill His divine plan. Zounds! Awesome! Radical! Yes, and frightening, too.

God reveals a vision of His gifts to us in all their wonderful diversity through Paul: "There are different gifts but the same Spirit; there are different ministries but the same Lord; there are different works but the same God who accomplishes all of them in everyone. To each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good...preaching, teaching, faith, healing, miracles, prophesy, recognizing spirits, tongues and the interpretation of tongues. All these are the manifestation of one and the same Spirit, who distributes different gifts to different people just as he chooses" (1 Cor 12:4-11).

What's that? You didn't see transsexualism in the list? Paul does not pretend that this short list includes all of God's gifts to us. He itemizes more in Romans 12:6-8 and Jesus names others in the Beatitudes such as meekness, thirst for justice, peacemaking and the rest. Indeed there are many gifts - named and unnamed - given to us "for the common good".

So why not transsexualism? There is not one shred of evidence that this is not a divine gift. Of course when most people think of divine gifts they think of musical ability, artistic talent, intelligence, charisma, good health, etc., but that is obviously too narrow a view. In a very touching story Jesus showed even blindness could be a gift: "He saw a man who had been blind from birth. His disciples asked him, 'Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, for him to have been born blind?' 'Neither he nor his parents sinned, Jesus answered, 'he was born blind so that the works of God might be displayed in him'." (Jn 9:2-3) Then He gave the man sight.

Christians have always had difficulty comprehending how a loving, good, and merciful God could permit conditions that are contrary to their concept of good. Birth defects, arthritis, an untimely death, - all the frailties of human existence - seem cruel. Some ascribe these to sin while others become callous or turn against their God. Their faith is lacking and Jesus calls them blind: "If you were blind, you would not be guilty, but since you say, 'We see,' your guilt remains." (Jn 9:41)

Is it not possible that even these so called evils are also gifts of God? And perhaps not just gifts to those stricken, but to all of us - to give us an opportunity to show care and love for all our brothers and sisters. Consider the story of the Good Samaritan: Was not the victim an opportunity for the Levite, the priest, and the Samaritan to show love for another human being? But only the Samaritan saw the "gift" in the situation and helped the victim.

In the same way Christians and others often fail to comprehend how transsexuality could be God's blessing to certain chosen persons - for their benefit and the benefit of us all. Instead, some set themselves up as judges and condemn what their pride cannot accept. "You must love your neighbor as yourself; but as soon as you make distinctions between classes of people, you are committing sin", James warns them. Besides, "who are you to give a verdict on your neighbor?" (Jam 2:9, 4:12) Jesus Himself told Peter: "What God has made clean, you have no right to call profane." (Acts 11:9)

However, any gift may be used for good or evil. Everything God has created is good but its ultimate value depends on what we do with it. If we realize that it can no longer remain a mere aberration to be tolerated. Rather, it becomes a positive good - a calling or vocation. It is right and morally good to express it and morally wrong to suppress it. See what power, what confidence, what affirmation we gain from accepting this as a gift! "If God is with us, who can stand against us?" (Rom 8:31) But wait! Before we charge off to conquer the world, take note: God's gifts do not come without strings. Remember the parable of the talents (Matt 25:14-30)?

Three servants were given gifts. Two dared to risk their gifts in investments and won a profit. The third suppressed his gift - and it was ripped from him and he was thrown out. If the two had risked and failed, would they have been punished? I think not. God does not allow us to be tested beyond our strength (1 Cor 10:16). The point is, the two acknowledged their gifts and accepted them. With faith in their master they tried and succeeded.

God's gifts are His investments in us and He expects a return on the investment. Paul's advice to Timothy applies equally to us: "You have in you a spiritual gift... do not let it lie unused" (1Tim4:14). The third servant did not use his gift and it was taken from him. The fig tree that did not bear fruit was ordered to be cut down (Lk 13:7-8). The Spirit who distributes these gifts "just as he chooses" gives some more gifts than others. Do not envy them; for the more they have been given, the more will be demanded of them (Lk 12:48)

And what return can transsexuals make on the investment our God has made in them? Transsexuals are born with a gift. They can no more teach someone without the gift to become one of them than a therapist can take the gift from one who is born with it. Like it or not the gift is given - it is theirs, - in them as an integral part of their unique being.

So what do you do with it? Certainly we have to acknowledge it and accept it. Then what? For starters we can learn from it. We can learn a deeper appreciation and respect for all people. As a minority we can see more clearly the stupidity of prejudice. We can embrace this gift, treasure it, enjoy it, explore and develop it to its full potential, and share it with others. We can help those similarly gifted: removing their fears and roadblocks so they can become all they were meant to be. "Each one of you has received a special grace, so, like good stewards responsible for all these different graces of God, put yourself at the service of others" (1 Pet 4:10).

And when we've learned to appreciate ourselves and others, and when we've given help to others, then we can reach out to the public who do not share the gift. We can step out with pride in the full light of day as ornaments to society. After all, "We are God's work of art, created in Christ Jesus to live the good life as from the beginning he had meant us to live it" (Eph 2:10).

We are needed in society - precisely because we cross a gender boundary which is taken for granted so complacently by the majority. Just by being who we are, we challenge false assumptions about gender and genuinely help the public reassess their attitudes. We demonstrate in our being the diversity of God's creative genius, and we help deflate the arrogance that leads to discrimination - against us and against other minorities.

We are all members of the same crew on spaceship Earth and we will all grow or die based on the contributions of each individual member. No one could contribute much if we were all the same, could we? "If your whole body was just one eye, how would you hear anything? If it was just one ear, how would you smell anything? Instead of that, God put all the separate parts into the body on purpose. If all the parts were the same, how could it be a body? As it is, the parts are many but the body is one. The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I do not need you,' nor can the head say to the feet, 'I do not need you.'.. God has arranged the body so that... each part may be equally concerned for all the others. If one part is hurt, all parts are hurt with it. If one part is given special honor, all parts enjoy it" (1 Cor 12:17-21, 24-26).

We all have a place and a purpose in this world whether we understand it yet or not. Rednecks, Jews, men, women, whites & blacks, Baptists, bankers, transsexuals- even Democrats - all are here at His command. Is this difficult to swallow? Even Paul had trouble with it but he understood: "I should like everyone to be like me, but everybody have his own particular gifts from God, one with a gift for one thing and another with a gift for the opposite" (1 Cor 7:7).

Accepting transsexuality as a divine gift means accepting also the purpose for which it was given. That may be too uncomfortable for most. But those that do accept acquire also the power and confidence that comes from being right - not just correct according to human logic - but morally right. Slander and abuse, criticism and laughter cannot defeat them. Their self assurance and open friendliness to all people win them friendliness in return. They take their place in society as a contributing member and the world is better for them.

AUTHOR UNKNOWN

[Guest Sarah-hime]

Thanks for sharing that - never looked at it like that - until now. I guess it has made me 'feel' a bit better about being what I am (or maybe am) *hugs*

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora IWIWAGIRL and All those readers who ‘bible battle’ their conscience over the ‘A man shall not wear woman’s clothing-and visa versa etc’

Here’s some food for thought…Now bearing in mind the mind set of the people at the time was veeeery ‘superstitious’ they believed in all sorts of weird things that we modern day people now know to be a load of crap and mumbo jumbo…like water into wine[before the Australian’s started to water down their export wines] and walking on water [before the Hawaiians invented the surf board ]…On a more serious note it was a period in time when ‘periods’ were seen as dirty-very unclean –A man was not meant to lie with a woman when she was having her ‘monthlies’…Now here’s my hypothesis on the ‘not wearing women’s clothing holy law’…[now please think outside the square a little here] hygiene to say the lest was not the best back then and a woman’s clothing no doubt was stained with the blood and difficult to wash out without the use of modern day stain remover that’s found in today’s detergents[i'm not going to mention brand names here]...and continuing with my hypothesis…if women wore men’s clothes they might also stain them too…REMEMBER ancient people especially men were veeeeery superstitious-weird in their thinking…one could say somewhat lazy, uneducated, unhygienic, male chauvinistic slobs[they didn't know any better]…Now we all know that blood can carry diseases…I want you to expand your thinking here and think of the amount of deaths that would have occurred through ‘bad’ hygiene practise back then and the Hebrew tribes were sparsely populated and scattered all over the middle east …Then some bright ancient Hebrew spark saw the connection and tried to solve the problem by saying ‘From now on you can’t wear your wife’s clothes like you usually do when yours are dirty’ and whatever you do DON’T let your wife wear yours!…THINK ABOUT IT….[barren women and homosexuals were also ostracised back then because they would not /could not replenish the tribe's dwindling populations...hence the modern day bad press for homosexual people..what better way to enforce such a law that would increase the population than with a signature from their god...hence classifying homosexual acts as holy sins ]

Metta Jendar

[Guest savagedm]

Leah, you hit the nail on the head and drove it straight through the plank of wood of how I've felt about this for some time! Wow that was an excellent read. Those of us who can take this gift and use it for the betterment of all I believe will find true happiness in this life.

This all circles back to the posters question about this being wrong. It is only wrong if you let it damage who you are inside and tear you up I believe. The only "right" thing to do about any transgenderism is to embrace it and nurture it to fruition, else you destroy a crucial and beautiful part of what God has given and planned for you in this life.

[Guest Michelle M]

You can't burn in hell if you don't believe in it. =) Life itself is a gift. Do what you want with it. I'm very open minded I have no problem with what people do to make themselves happy, no matter what it is. As long as it doesn't lead to hurting other people. Crossdressing and fetishes are harmless. Murder, stealing, deception? They are harmful and wrong. It's just that simple.

[Guest Sarah-hime]

Thanks for the replies: plenty of food for thought - when I meant "should I have known better?" I meant should I have perhaps expected this sort of response?

[Guest Leah1026]

Here's more food for thought from DrBecky.com:

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.

Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.

It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us.

We ask ourselves,

Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?

Actually, who are you not to be?

You are a child of God.

Your playing small doesn't serve the world.

There is nothing enlightened about shrinking

So that other people will not feel insecure around you.

We are all meant to shine, as children do.

We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us.

It's not in just some of us;

It's in everyone.

And as we let our own light shine,

We unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.

As we're liberated from our own fear,

Our presence automatically liberates others.

Marianne Williamson

A Return To Love (1992), Chapter 7

[Guest Mr. Fox]

I may be wrong, but wasn't this old law that was overturned in Romans?

[Guest savagedm]

I may be wrong, but wasn't this old law that was overturned in Romans?

Well the Romans overturned it in their society. But in terms of spirituality, the crucifixion of Jesus was the fulfillment (and thus erasing) of the old law for everyone on earth.

[Guest Veronicalynn]

Hi All,

I agree with the rest of of you. I would like to bring up a website that I like, called "Grace & Lace" This website is for the transgendered community who are christians. It is worth the time to check it out.

Hugs to all,

Veronicalynn

[Guest GoldenKirbichu]

As an agnostic atheist (no they are not mutually exclusive), I'm in an objective position. I say that people are much more educated now and old laws that are obviously biased or inapplicable ought to be thrown away. That's an example of something that used to serve a purpose but still represents the bias of an older time.

[Guest Leah1026]

To each their own.

[Guest Jessica Renae]

I wish I had the link to the forum. I too a while back had the same exact question. Am I a sinner for being a transexual? After several hours of serching my cursor landed on this forum. It was a non-transgendered Christian forum. A desperate mother pleads to the group to answer her question about her "son". As expected there was the usal "That's sick" and even nastier comments that I feel that there is no need for me to repeat and you can imagine. But, what was suprising that they were the minority and the other members would put them in their place...

However, getting back on subject. A retired Army Chaplin posed and interesting theory for our cursed verse. His theory was that it was a law of war. His translations of the original hebrew was that women were not to wear armor and go to battle and vice versa men were not to disguise them selves as women to hide from a foe. Is it correct? I don't know but non-the-less an interesting theory.

Also no one could pose a new testiment condemnation for transgenderisim.