"testosterone Is A Powerful Substance"

[Guest My_Genesis]

I hear so much from my gender therapist, my new doctor whom i'm looking to start me on T, and from other ftm's and mtf's alike about how testosterone is a powerful hormone and about all the effects it has on pubescent boys and ftm's who are taking hrt. But does anyone ever say this about mtf's taking estrogen? I mean, most if not all ftm's have physically (maybe not mentally, haha) experienced a female puberty before their male one, but I never hear too many people say to mtf's or to bio-girls "estrogen is a powerful hormone, it will lower your libido (in the case of mtf's), make you process your emotions and thoughts like a woman, feminize your body", and so on. I just think it's funny to say how "powerful" testosterone is but no one really says that about estrogen. Is it because we all basically start off as females when we are in our mother's wombs and testosterone is really what does all the work to make someone male? Or is there some kind of pervading sexism in our society that we like to think becoming a man is a "powerful" experience, while becoming a woman is not so much?

Just stuff I've been thinking about. I would love to hear everyone's feedback.

[Guest Ryles_D]

Estrogen isn't as powerful, if you look at it. Most men, aside from top surgery, could get by on just T for passing without too much hassle. It masculinizes your face, deepens your voice, makes you hairier, etc. All of those are permanent- and isn't even getting into the impermanent effects. The only really permanent effect of estrogen (that I know of) is growing breasts. Women need surgery to undo the face & adam's apple, electrolysis to get rid of hair, and voice training.

The reason they don't say estrogen is powerful is because, relatively speaking, it isn't.

Is it because we all basically start off as females when we are in our mother's wombs and testosterone is really what does all the work to make someone male?

We don't. We start out as sexless or intersexed or something else. We are no more female than male- the only reason we say that is because we don't have a penis that early on. Are you saying that a female is just a male without a penis? Why is it okay to say that a person who has neither ovaries nor testes is female rather than male? If an early fetus never got exposed to estrogen or testosterone, they wouldn't develop into a female in any sense other than "this person is not male". And I don't think it's a good idea to define females, who have a long list of traits that all happen to be internal, as "someone who isn't male". Why not define male as someone who isn't female? Then we all start out as male.

[Guest Donna Jean]

Oh, My Gen....good topic....

Now, being a moderator here I read everyone's posts ...FTM/MTF/ and all the others, so I see pretty much an equal amount of "E" and "T" related posts...

Now, when I was in therapy, one of the things that my therapist spent a whole session was on HRT/Estrogen and what I could expect to happen...

He didn't hold back any punches. Right to the point...

Now both hormones are powerful in their own right..it's just that they make different physical and mental manifestations occur in us....

When you say "powerful" when you talk about "T" do you mean as in strength that a transman gains? Because "E" has the opposite effect on us..we lose 20-30% of our muscle mass...and get weaker...

But, both can change our minds and bodies, affect our emotions and make the way we handle anger, fear and happiness different...

Yeah, Hon...they're BOTH very powerful!

Donna Jean

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Estrogen isn't as powerful, if you look at it. Most men, aside from top surgery, could get by on just T for passing without too much hassle. It masculinizes your face, deepens your voice, makes you hairier, etc. All of those are permanent- and isn't even getting into the impermanent effects. The only really permanent effect of estrogen (that I know of) is growing breasts. Women need surgery to undo the face & adam's apple, electrolysis to get rid of hair, and voice training.

The reason they don't say estrogen is powerful is because, relatively speaking, it isn't.

We don't. We start out as sexless or intersexed or something else. We are no more female than male- the only reason we say that is because we don't have a penis that early on. Are you saying that a female is just a male without a penis? Why is it okay to say that a person who has neither ovaries nor testes is female rather than male? If an early fetus never got exposed to estrogen or testosterone, they wouldn't develop into a female in any sense other than "this person is not male". And I don't think it's a good idea to define females, who have a long list of traits that all happen to be internal, as "someone who isn't male". Why not define male as someone who isn't female? Then we all start out as male.

I am not sure that what is said here is accurate. Now I admit, my biology training was in 1977 and thinking and science may have changed drastically (DUH) - but I was taught the biotype for all mammals is basically female - that unlees there is a masculinizing agent, the fetus is virtually going to develope female. Now 'female' in that context disregards a lot of things - the seconadry female characteristics, for example, are mainly expressed at puberty. A baby or infant girl, and a baby or infant boy, are more alike than we generally like to admit, although in both cases there is already feminization and masculinization going on.

But take a 12 year old boy - don't put his body through puberty? He would keep his light voice and softer, less muscular feminine features, if not many seconadary things like breasts and other curves

Not to be argumentative - I think it needs researching. It's like the default is female, if the male hormones don't kick in - not a womanly feminine to be sure - the estrogen is needed for that. But conversely - withhold estrogen from a young girl, she does NOT masculinize.

So to the TOPIC

My opinion on Estrogen? In combination with the T-Blockers?

WHOA - powerful stuff!

Not just breasts - not just mood changes...

Facial feminization

New body fat distribution- a new layer of subcutaneous skin that men don't have

Softer skin texture

Elimination and reduction of body hair (except pubic and facial)

Regression of any balding - even a thickening of hair on some people

Huge loss of body strength

In some - a slimming of the waist, accentualtion of thighs and buttocks.

And I think in a few cases, those MTF with a tendancy toward feminization in their genetics or somehow else - donno what:

Change in the shape of the nails

Reduction of the beard density - definately slowing down of growth

Voice high range capabilty (extended time - after about two years)

And halting of continuing male develpment of any kind - such as rough skin and male pattern wrinkling

I suggest we MTF have better results with surgery - and you FTM have better results with hormones.

BUT HRT - and the estrogen? POWERFUL results! Just growing our breasts naturally , like we should have been able to do as our birthright, that is such an AFFIRMATION!

I hope this answers a question - and I thought it interesting - a question from the FTM side! How shows somewhat how you Tmen look at the 'T" you take - a POWERFUL thing!

It somewhat translates to us MTF - with the "E" [We girls don't usually say "E' - for some reason - grin - spelling out 'estrogen.") and we 'think' of the 'results' as powerful. Estrogen to us is an essence of femaleness. More 'powerful" - than "POWERFUL" perhaps GRIN!

GREAT TOPIC!

Lizzy

[Guest My_Genesis]

Oh, My Gen....good topic....

Now, being a moderator here I read everyone's posts ...FTM/MTF/ and all the others, so I see pretty much an equal amount of "E" and "T" related posts...

Now, when I was in therapy, one of the things that my therapist spent a whole session was on HRT/Estrogen and what I could expect to happen...

He didn't hold back any punches. Right to the point...

Now both hormones are powerful in their own right..it's just that they make different physical and mental manifestations occur in us....

When you say "powerful" when you talk about "T" do you mean as in strength that a transman gains? Because "E" has the opposite effect on us..we lose 20-30% of our muscle mass...and get weaker...

But, both can change our minds and bodies, affect our emotions and make the way we handle anger, fear and happiness different...

Yeah, Hon...they're BOTH very powerful!

Donna Jean

No I'm more referring to powerful in the sense it has so many effects on the body and mind. but doesn't estrogen as well? What I'm getting at is the notion of "powerful" being associated in our society with masculinity, so does that have something to do with the greater amount of emphasis on how "powerful" T is as opposed to E?

We don't. We start out as sexless or intersexed or something else. We are no more female than male- the only reason we say that is because we don't have a penis that early on. Are you saying that a female is just a male without a penis? Why is it okay to say that a person who has neither ovaries nor testes is female rather than male? If an early fetus never got exposed to estrogen or testosterone, they wouldn't develop into a female in any sense other than "this person is not male". And I don't think it's a good idea to define females, who have a long list of traits that all happen to be internal, as "someone who isn't male". Why not define male as someone who isn't female? Then we all start out as male.

I'm going to go on a limb here and talk biology because that's my unofficial major in college. Biologically speaking, yes, we all start out pretty much sexless. But the thing is, after a certain amount of time, if you are exposed to testosterone, you develop into a male. If you are not exposed to testosterone, you develop into a female. Not to get too complicated here but if there is some miscommunication between the hormonal signals and those of the brain and/or the body, this could lead to an intersexed individual or, theoretically, trasnsexualism. Ovarian tissue becomes testicular tissue due to testosterone. In biology classes teachers and professors have often referred to female as the "default" pathway in development, for that reason. It's like testosterone is the deciding factor in, well I guess in life. So is that why it is considered more powerful?

[Guest Anna_Banana]

No I'm more referring to powerful in the sense it has so many effects on the body and mind. but doesn't estrogen as well? What I'm getting at is the notion of "powerful" being associated in our society with masculinity, so does that have something to do with the greater amount of emphasis on how "powerful" T is as opposed to E?

Testosterone is the more dominant of the two sex hormones. If you have equal quantities testosterone to equal quantities estrogen, the former of the two will supersede the latter. That's why bio-males require anti-androgens in order to lower the presence of testosterone, otherwise estrogen will not work as it should. The estrogen will still have an effect, but the presence of testosterone will "warp" it, so to speak. That's when you start to see tubular breasts and other deformities.

Unfortunately I have no hard scientific facts to present to you.

.Anna

[Guest Evan_J]

Liz's respose mose closely mirrored what I was going to say. So to keep me from typing, read hers again

I think what peeps are getting at when they say "powerful" with the T- but don't so much word it that way about estrogen -is just that T alone will have a physiological/changing affect on either a natal male or natal female whereas in order for estrogen to have as notable affect, the T has to be kept to a minimum. It happens naturally in natal females with the absence of producing testicles. It happens theraputicly with transitioning females by adding T-blockers. Both kinds of females can only acquire female secondary traits if the T spout it shut off considerably.

Not so with testosterone.

Its kinda like the guy (tguy) who asked the doc "is there an anti-estrogen?" and the answer was "testosterone is the anti-estrogen. " Hence its ability to severely retard estrogens production and cause those organs to atrophy.

[Guest JKarician]

Well unfortunately I don’t have the biological understanding to make a really knowledgeable response to this question, but like the others I find this a very interesting topic. I can agree that I’ve heard it said several times that T is more “powerful” than E, but I guess “powerful” means different things to different people. If we look at the definitions, “having or exerting great power”, “producing great physical effects”, “potent”, “having great effectiveness” I think we would be equally describing both T and E. As FTM, we realize the power of E when puberty rears its ugly head, just as MTF realize the power of T in the same way. In my experience with other trans in various support groups, my T had faster effects than others taking E. Now I don’t know if that’s true throughout, and maybe it has more to do with genes and not the hormones, but my voice was noticeably dropping day two while MTF peer were waiting longer periods of time to notice any physical affects. I won’t pretend to know anything scientific behind that. Prior to T, I also thought of it being more powerful because with E you could go back. With T’s irreversible changes, while you could go back, you have the lasting voice, facial hair etc. I really hope I’m not offending anyone by saying, if you went on E and six months later decided you made a mistake, you may have to get chest reconstruction but you could be relatively as you were. In a way, I felt like T was going down the path of no return and that made it striking more "potent" in my mind.

I think there is something to Lizzy’s statement of “I suggest we MTF have better results with surgery - and you FTM have better results with hormones.” If I were to compare surgeries available, especially looking at “powerful” definition number two I’d hand the trophy over to MTFs because we are still in the dark ages.

Gen, I also appreciate you enlightening us with the biological aspect of it. That T is the “deciding factor” I think may have a lot to do with determining it as more powerful. It makes sense to me why those of science would consider it to be given your explanation.

[Guest Nicodeme]

I would imagine that as far as external effects go, androgens are the stronger juices.

But internally...personally, I think especially for brain structure, estrogen leaves a more permanent effect. A lot of transmen whose voices I hear sound...well, they sound kind of like gay men, because their brains got zapped with enough estrogen at some point to make it extremely difficult to lose that feminine intonation. All my feminine behaviors occur to me naturally. Some people learned them and have to UNlearn them...for me it's just plain unlearning them.

Also, androgens are designed to overcome estrogens...so estrogens aren't really designed to fight back.

...At least...not in an obvious arena.

[Guest JKarician]

I would imagine that as far as external effects go, androgens are the stronger juices.

But internally...personally, I think especially for brain structure, estrogen leaves a more permanent effect. A lot of transmen whose voices I hear sound...well, they sound kind of like gay men, because their brains got zapped with enough estrogen at some point to make it extremely difficult to lose that feminine intonation. All my feminine behaviors occur to me naturally. Some people learned them and have to UNlearn them...for me it's just plain unlearning them.

Also, androgens are designed to overcome estrogens...so estrogens aren't really designed to fight back.

...At least...not in an obvious arena.

Side note, I don't think I agree with the "brains got zapped with enough estrogen" theory. According to Trans Care’s Hormones: A Guide for FTMS “Although testosterone typically makes voice pitch drop to ‘male’ levels, it does not change intonation and other speech patterns that are associated with gender socialization rather than hormones.” Realizing this is not a scientific article and is designed for FTMs, I would also cite the experience of David Reimer, who was born as a healthy male but after his penis was destroyed during circumcision the decision was made to raise him as a girl. After discovering what had happened to him, he began living as a male at age 14 and makes mention in his book, “As Nature Made Him” that he still had to “unlearn” many feminine characteristics including tone and choice of words. I would hypothesize that as far as intonation, brain bath in estrogen versus gender socialization, the environment would take the cake. Plenty of gay men also don’t sound like the stereotypical gay men, as many FTMs I have met also don’t sound like stereotypical gay men. With hormones, isn’t it pretty standard (realizing there are rare exceptions) changes across the board? If tone is all due to a soak in whatever hormones, I would imagine then that no pre-E MTF would be able to sound feminine and I've met several who sound extraordinarily lady-like I think you learn and unlearn based on environmental factors.

[Guest ~Brenda~]

Hi MyGen

Hormones are the most powerful compounds on earth. Without hormones, life would not be possible. Your body could not function without the regulation characteristics of hormones. All hormones are powerful. Think about it. HRT for FTM's give them a beard, deeper voice, and other male characteristics. HRT for MTF's give them softer skin, breasts, and other female characteristics.

Hormones can profoundly change your body and mind regardless of T or E.

What is more powerful than that?

HUGS

Brenda

[Guest JKarician]

Side note, I don't think I agree with the "brains got zapped with enough estrogen" theory. According to Trans Care’s Hormones: A Guide for FTMS “Although testosterone typically makes voice pitch drop to ‘male’ levels, it does not change intonation and other speech patterns that are associated with gender socialization rather than hormones.” Realizing this is not a scientific article and is designed for FTMs, I would also cite the experience of David Reimer, who was born as a healthy male but after his penis was destroyed during circumcision the decision was made to raise him as a girl. After discovering what had happened to him, he began living as a male at age 14 and makes mention in his book, “As Nature Made Him” that he still had to “unlearn” many feminine characteristics including tone and choice of words. I would hypothesize that as far as intonation, brain bath in estrogen versus gender socialization, the environment would take the cake. Plenty of gay men also don’t sound like the stereotypical gay men, as many FTMs I have met also don’t sound like stereotypical gay men. With hormones, isn’t it pretty standard (realizing there are rare exceptions) changes across the board? If tone is all due to a soak in whatever hormones, I would imagine then that no pre-E MTF would be able to sound feminine and I've met several who sound extraordinarily lady-like I think you learn and unlearn based on environmental factors.

Replying to my own reply because I found a better source. An article published by the Department of Endocrinology, VU Medical Center in Amsterdam, Hormone Research says of voice, “Antiandrogens and oestrogens have no effect on the properties of the voice. Speech therapy may lead to more feminine speech.”

[Guest My_Genesis]

Replying to my own reply because I found a better source. An article published by the Department of Endocrinology, VU Medical Center in Amsterdam, Hormone Research says of voice, “Antiandrogens and oestrogens have no effect on the properties of the voice. Speech therapy may lead to more feminine speech.”

since we're talking about "hormone soaking" for lack of a better term lol - isn't it also theory that transsexualism is caused by prenatal exposure to hormones, aka a "brain bath" of testosterone (or lack thereof - like I said, the "default pathway" is female) which plays a significant role in the development of one's gender identity? Again this is the theory, just thought i'd bring that into the convo.

[Guest JKarician]

since we're talking about "hormone soaking" for lack of a better term lol - isn't it also theory that transsexualism is caused by prenatal exposure to hormones, aka a "brain bath" of testosterone (or lack thereof - like I said, the "default pathway" is female) which plays a significant role in the development of one's gender identity? Again this is the theory, just thought i'd bring that into the convo.

Hey Mr. Biology Major, do you have a subscription to ScienceDirect.com? Very nice article "Biological and Psychosocial Correlates of Adult Gender-Variant Identities: A Review" by Massey University in New Zealand. Abstract includes: "Evidence that prenatal androgens play a role comes from studies that have examined finger length ratios (2D:4D), prevalence of polycystic ovary syndrome among female-to-male transsexuals, and individuals with intersex and related conditions who are more likely to have reassigned genders. There is also evidence that transsexuals have parts of their brain structure that is typical of the opposite birth-assigned gender." If you're interested and don't have the subscription, PM me and I'll copy and paste it for you. (Without subscription you have to purchase it for a ridiculous price)

-J

[Guest Girl Emily]

Anna,

What you said is true but if you are taking high enough levels of estrogen transdermally or slightly lower levels orally there will be a reduction of testosterone production. The male body uses estrogen levels to control testosterone production. Testosterone is converted to estrogen by muscle tissue and the thyroid responds to the estrogen level and stops releasing a messenger hormone that stimulates the testis to produce testosterone. This in a way makes estrogen more powerful. :-)

I agree it is social stereotypes that make testosterone "Powerful".

Huggs,

[Guest Nicodeme]

Side note, I don't think I agree with the "brains got zapped with enough estrogen" theory. According to Trans Care’s Hormones: A Guide for FTMS “Although testosterone typically makes voice pitch drop to ‘male’ levels, it does not change intonation and other speech patterns that are associated with gender socialization rather than hormones.” Realizing this is not a scientific article and is designed for FTMs, I would also cite the experience of David Reimer, who was born as a healthy male but after his penis was destroyed during circumcision the decision was made to raise him as a girl. After discovering what had happened to him, he began living as a male at age 14 and makes mention in his book, “As Nature Made Him” that he still had to “unlearn” many feminine characteristics including tone and choice of words. I would hypothesize that as far as intonation, brain bath in estrogen versus gender socialization, the environment would take the cake. Plenty of gay men also don’t sound like the stereotypical gay men, as many FTMs I have met also don’t sound like stereotypical gay men. With hormones, isn’t it pretty standard (realizing there are rare exceptions) changes across the board? If tone is all due to a soak in whatever hormones, I would imagine then that no pre-E MTF would be able to sound feminine and I've met several who sound extraordinarily lady-like I think you learn and unlearn based on environmental factors.

I actually meant hormone exposure in utero, not during natural puberty or transition. My girlfriend has a very feminine intonation and never learned it. It just happened naturally for her.

[Guest Girl Emily]

My-gen,

Another possibility with scientific evidence is the system wide sensitivity to testosterone may be lower in some FtM's. I believe a study found the length of a testosterone receptor coding was longer in the MtF population.

[Guest JKarician]

I actually meant hormone exposure in utero, not during natural puberty or transition. My girlfriend has a very feminine intonation and never learned it. It just happened naturally for her.

I think I understood what you meant Nico, which is why I brought up David Reimer. He didn’t have an estrogen exposure in utero, yet had to unlearn feminine behaviors including intonation, because for the first 14 years of his life he was raised as a biological girl and had that gender’s socialization.

Also I found a study from the University of Southern California School of Medicine in Los Angeles reporting that a group of boys exposed to diethylstilbestrol (synthetic nonsteroidal estrogen) in utero showed no difference in health, physical development or sexual characteristics from other boys who had not been exposed to diethystilbestrol.

Realizing your girlfriend has had a different experience, the Journal of Periantology reports that “A newborn human shows preference for his/her mother’s voice and to musical pieces to which he/she was previously exposed, indicating a capacity to learn while in utero.” In combination, an article in Woman & Language in 2005 says that “Studies have even suggested that the process of gender socialization begins prior to birth, in utero…Mothers who learned the sex of their child through amniocentesis described a male as ‘moving vigorously,’ very active, and a female as ‘quiet.’” So maybe your girlfriend did learn in utero, or there are several studies reporting how early stereotypical gender roles are formed (I found age 3, age 5, pre kindergarten) I don’t remember a whole lot about being 3, do you? I’m not sure if a child that young has the brain development to comprehend how they are being put into a stereotypical gender role (I know many of us have always felt we are in the wrong gender from this age, what I'm saying is that I don't believe at the age of 3 one has the critical thinking skills to employ the logic and "intellectual criteria such as clarity, credibility, accuracy, precision, relevance, depth, breadth, significance" required to put together all that is going on. Isn't that the beauty of it for those of us who experienced the dysphoria this young? I may not know how to read or maybe even how to dress myself, but I know I'm not a little girl/boy. I feel it's the simplicity, the purity of it that is so striking) I don’t remember learning to finger paint, I don’t remember learning to name and match basic colors, so why would I remember let alone understand how everyone was gender socializing me?

I was unable to find anything to support that estrogen exposure in utero effects intonation. I’d really enjoy reading anything you have Nico

[Guest Nicodeme]

I'm afraid I'm stuck with theories, and not sources. I lucked out with an extremely neutral upbrining (in fact there was a lot more "masculine" stuff I was encouraged to do than I was actually really interested in.) so I highly doubt I was socialized. I'm sorry, but I really think this whole assertion of socialization is BS. And Ryan was definitely NOT socialized to be feminine. In any way. Her parents made sure of that. :/

[Guest JKarician]

I'm afraid I'm stuck with theories, and not sources. I lucked out with an extremely neutral upbrining (in fact there was a lot more "masculine" stuff I was encouraged to do than I was actually really interested in.) so I highly doubt I was socialized. I'm sorry, but I really think this whole assertion of socialization is BS. And Ryan was definitely NOT socialized to be feminine. In any way. Her parents made sure of that. :/

Well with regard to socialization we can agree to disagree because I think I’ll stick with the science on this one.

[Guest My_Genesis]

Well with regard to socialization we can agree to disagree because I think I’ll stick with the science on this one.

Nature/nurture debate? That's kinda what I'm getting at, good work guys, haha. Now that you mention it, I guess I am asking about the social stereotypes of the word "powerful" versus the biological effects the hormones have.