Biological Hints?

[Guest CharlieRose]

We've had discussions on here if you've noticed things when you were little that acted sort of as clues to you being transsexual... Has anyone noticed any biological ones?

Like, I have an adam's apple. Not a huge one, but it's definitely there. I also have a naturally low voice, past alto range. If anyone knows the Dresden Dolls or Amanda Palmer, the lead singer, I can sing along with all but one or two of her lowest notes.

My ring fingers on each hand are at least 5mm longer than my index fingers. (People with longer ring fingers than index fingers supposedly were exposed to more testosterone in the womb) I'm really good at math, which is supposed to be affected by testosterone and can be predicted by the finger thing.

And, a bit odd, but my boobs are smaller than both my mother's and my older sister's. They're definitely smaller than my older sister's when she was my age.

Now, not that I'm saying that these things automatically make you transsexual or not... There are lots of women with Adam's Apples, long ring fingers and small chests. My mom for one. (Well, she doesn't have an adam's apple, but she's an alto) But I dunno, I thought it was interesting.

And, this may or may not be related, but I was a member of an asexuality forum for a while. We noticed that there were a lot of gender dysphoric members, and a lot of members with asperger's syndrome, a form of mild autism. I did a poll and found out that a lot of aromantic people, or people who don't fall in love, had felt slightly obsessive compulsive, or actually had full blown OCD, which, #1 is caused by oxytocin, which also causes feelings of obsessive love, and is found in high levels in newlyweds and the like, #2, is something that can cross over into autism and #3, often correlates with Tourette's syndrome.

As far as I know right now, I'm asexual and transsexual. I've described myself as having an autistic personality. (Heard of the book "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Nighttime?" I identified with it 99% of the time. Not autistic, but there are definitely similarities) I have some problems with things that are like OCD as far as I understand it.

I can't stand the sound of ceramic plates being scraped with silverware and can't get it out of my head when someone does it. I need things to be equal on both sides of me, both in feeling and sound, resulting in a lot of weird looks when I clap my hands on one side of my head and then on the other, or hit my leg because I bumped into something with the other, and then do it over and over again until it feels EXACTLY the same. I am mycophobic and wash my hands several times if I accidentally touch a mushroom. Mostly I can't even look at them. I was worried when I started driving that it would affect me, but I've been able to keep it under control so I haven't ever sought out help for it. I can remember doing things kind of like this when I was younger, most of it really didn't start until after puberty. I can remember hand washing and cutting mushrooms when I was eleven. By the time I was thirteen they made me want to throw up.

Now, when something goes "wrong" and I have to "fix" it, I have this thing that I do. I sort of shake like someone who thought they were alone being tapped on the shoulder. I need to shake to get this feeling in my neck that I crave whenever something rubs me the wrong way. Like with the silverware, *squeak* *shake*. My family jokes about it, and I've been asked by my friends several times, "Did you just, like, twitch?" "Uh, yeah. I do that."

I watched a documentary on Tourette's Syndrome and they described tics as being a feeling you HAVE to get, like scratching an itch, and you get it by moving a certain way. Like my shakes.

So... I don't HAVE all of these various diseases and conditions, but it's very interesting all the same, no?

It's a long post, sorry, and I'm sure it won't be true for everyone, but I thought I'd see how far my various theories stretched.

Uh, thanks.

[MaryEllen]

You know, Charlie, you might have something there. I do have an Adam's apple but it is barely noticeable. I never developed broad shoulders and biceps that most males typically have. My hips are the same measurement as my chest with a slightly smaller waist. When I went through puberty, my breasts developed slightly. I got a lot of teasing about that. I also had a higher than average male voice.

MaryEllen

[Guest Ryles_D]

Like, I have an adam's apple. Not a huge one, but it's definitely there. I also have a naturally low voice, past alto range. If anyone knows the Dresden Dolls or Amanda Palmer, the lead singer, I can sing along with all but one or two of her lowest notes.

My ring fingers on each hand are at least 5mm longer than my index fingers. (People with longer ring fingers than index fingers supposedly were exposed to more testosterone in the womb) I'm really good at math, which is supposed to be affected by testosterone and can be predicted by the finger thing.

And, a bit odd, but my boobs are smaller than both my mother's and my older sister's. They're definitely smaller than my older sister's when she was my age.

I think I'm soprano. I know in chorus I was, but that was back when I was 11, so.... I'm not banking on it much. But I don't have the deepest voice ever. Which means nothing on my neck.

My ring finger's shorter than my index. Which I think is backwards. o_O And I'm pretty good at math when I'm not sick, so I'm pretty much eager to say "Guess that means I'm that much more of a genius, eh?" No, I'm not at all humble when it comes to academics.

...how do you notice other people's breast sizes? How does anyone? I can't. They're either there or they aren't. I can't notice G's from B's on most days. G's and Bs. That's about a, what? 5 inch difference? Invisible to me.

[Guest Snow Angel]

In middle school gym I got teased for having man boobs, even though I wasn't fat. The lunch ladies or crowds at sport events mistook me for female sometimes. My voice was was high and musical until I got my trachea, people called me ma'am on the phone. My doctor said I have "girl hands". Ring IS shorter than index. What makes me sad is that I ignored or was actually offended by these things. I wish I knew what transsexualism was or how it worked back then. I'm such an idiot for not picking up on the signs. What a depressing topic.

[Guest Keiichi-kun]

=/ I don't seem to fit into this. I have large breasts and wide hips. I've been told I have a very good figure too. I am an alto though and I do have pseudo-sideburns

Now, when something goes "wrong" and I have to "fix" it, I have this thing that I do. I sort of shake like someone who thought they were alone being tapped on the shoulder. I need to shake to get this feeling in my neck that I crave whenever something rubs me the wrong way. Like with the silverware, *squeak* *shake*. My family jokes about it, and I've been asked by my friends several times, "Did you just, like, twitch?" "Uh, yeah. I do that."

I sometimes get 'chills' where I just kinda shake and people look at me like no idea what it is though

[Guest harvester52]

This is very interesting, as I've had many of the biological things you're talking about.

My index finger is about an inch shorter than my ring finger.

I have a very deep voice, I sang bass in choir in 7th grade.

I am very hairy. My legs look like men's legs, and I have those "pseudo-sideburns" that go almost down to my earlobes if I don't shave them.

I am overly muscular.

[Guest savagedm]

Biologically speaking I have borderline broad shoulders which makes me sad . However, I am very slender for a guy, and my waist concaves in a lot more than most guys naturally. My ring and index fingers are the exact length, I am told I have a fairly gender neutral face and natural gait (walking style). I have "man-boobs" even though I'm very slender (I am a natural A cup) I dunno... I am a fairly even mix of both genders. People always said I would make the perfect spy because I can blend easily into any crowd lol.

But I think biologically, some things about us are more with our brain gender than our physical gender because the brain makes us that way. (Kind of like the guy who got locked into a freezer car overnight while working on it and because he knew it was a freezer car, froze to death even though it was 80 something in there the whole night. The brain does some amazing things to the body!)

~Brooke

[Guest Leah1026]

Honestly I'm always amazed that we look for the slightest little things to justify our existence. You don't need any proof, it's just something you know.

Believe in yourself!

[MaryEllen]

It's only human nature to search for proof so we shouldn't be critical of those that do.

[Guest Ryles_D]

Yeah, but those that don't have proof can feel like it's not as justifiable or as real as those that do or a person can trick themselves into thinking that if you have those proofs you must be, even if they clearly aren't.

[Guest Matthew-L]

you might be on to something charlie

even before T i was surprisingly masculine

my ring fingers are both longer than my index fingers

i've always had alot of body hair

actually there's less of it now

but when i was like 12 i had super-hairy arms and legs, noticable facial hair, and hair on my chest, stomach, and back

even before chest surgery i had small breasts, like A32 or something

i've had a noticable adam's apple since i was 11 and a deeper voice than the average female

in 6th grade i sang tenor

that really made my music teacher mad

he thought i was faking it and would always yell at me in choir

he ended up kicking me out of choir because he though i was faking it...he was a little weird

i've always had broad shoulders and narrow hips

even before i came out i was being kicked out of the ladies room

when i was 11 i was at the mall with a friend and a security guard dragged me out of the washroom by my ear and my mom had to come pick me up

this lady was talking about pressing charges...so funny

i'll stop talking now...

Matthew

[Guest savagedm]

Eh it's just fun and sometimes quirky to look for things like that... I really think the mind sees what it wants to see. I'm sure in all actuality these "differences" are just normal variations of the same build (the human build) and dont necessarily mean male or female.

[Guest Snow Angel]

I think Leah's right. I felt kind of ashamed posting in this thread, it made me feel like an obsessive gender junky. Mental hints are probably a more legitimate sign than biological ones. I think that CharlieRose just posted it as a fun topic, and we're taking it too seriously. Biological differences don't make someone any more or less transsexual, it just makes them more lucky or less lucky. It's just one of the many great variations of the human body. We're all as different as snowflakes. Some of us find out we're transsexual later in life, some earlier, it's what makes us all different.

If you were born more like your target gender, count your blessings, it means less surgery/adjustment for you. We need to make sure a thread like this is just for fun. I'm going to elaborate on what RDeis said. Someone that's new and confused to their own transsexualism might come across this thread, and have their entire psyche derailed just because "Their hands aren't as long" or "They don't like lemon candy" or "They weren't born under the 23rd day when the big dipper was aligned with the 3rd lunar eclipse". They might tell themselves they aren't transsexual just cause they don't meet the crazy criteria we're coming up with.

I guess I'm posting this so a casual reader doesn't blur the lines in a fun topic versus a topic that should be taken seriously, and get their feelings hurt over it or not feel like a legit transsexual.

[Guest GoldenKirbichu]

Biological differences are not the be-all and end-all, but, they may actually be an indication. The body and brain are highly correlated, after all. However, it could just be wishful thinking.

My index and ring fingers are approximately the same length. I'm somewhat good at both mathematics and linguistics, although I apparently have a high linguistic intelligence. [My right hand has a much more pronounced index finger though...]

I was always very hairy and I had a deep voice ever since I was young, and my voice is already deep enough for me to pass most of the time.

I have a somewhat thick tracheal wall, although it's not what I would call as pronounced as some. However, I'm very heavy, which could mask it.

I'm bulky; I have wider shoulders than hips. I'm also built solidly... was never willowy even when I was normal weight.

I have PCOS, with no easily-traceable source or obvious abnormalities with my internal genitalia...

[Guest CharlieRose]

...how do you notice other people's breast sizes? How does anyone? I can't. They're either there or they aren't. I can't notice G's from B's on most days. G's and Bs. That's about a, what? 5 inch difference? Invisible to me.

Oh, well, we live in the same house. By accident, sometimes. Swimsuits make it easier, too.

And, yeah, I'm not saying that anyone that doesn't have these things isn't transsexual. I have like zero childhood indicators and before would feel all unspecial when I would read about everyone else's massively obvious childhood symptoms.

It's just interesting when you line it all up together.

[Guest raydub]

[My right hand has a much more pronounced index finger though...]

what does it mean to have a "more pronounced" index finger?

Ray

[Guest KellyGirl]

=/ I don't seem to fit into this. I have large breasts and wide hips. I've been told I have a very good figure too. I am an alto though and I do have pseudo-sideburns

[/qoute]

I can relate. broad sholders, rather tall lost's pf body hair. as if nature intentionaly made it for me to be as unlike my true self in the phisical sense as humanly possible. my body is just a means of labor. I'm used for my muscles....

[Guest GoldenKirbichu]

what does it mean to have a "more pronounced" index finger?

Ray

I mean it's more obvious that it's longer. xD Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[Guest dolly]

ive noticed a few of those things on me too.

like how i have long slender fingers and how i dont have a noticable adams apple not to mention that i hve a ver soft jawline ad feminine face along with full lips. back in highschool i used to confuse everyone cus i was skinny and wore gothface. it felt really nice having people look at me and go "thats a girl" god id kill to have my high school weight back lo. not really but yeah.

me and a new aquainance were talking about that this over the weekend mater of factly.

shes pretty cool too, picked up on a few other things too about me the other people there didnt get like my main orientation. lol

[Guest Sydney_W]

My ring fingers on each hand are at least 5mm longer than my index fingers. (People with longer ring fingers than index fingers supposedly were exposed to more testosterone in the womb)...

And, a bit odd, but my boobs are smaller than both my mother's and my older sister's. They're definitely smaller than my older sister's when she was my age.

And, this may or may not be related, but I was a member of an asexuality forum for a while. We noticed that there were a lot of gender dysphoric members, and a lot of members with asperger's syndrome, a form of mild autism. I did a poll and found out that a lot of aromantic people, or people who don't fall in love, had felt slightly obsessive compulsive, or actually had full blown OCD, which, #1 is caused by oxytocin, which also causes feelings of obsessive love, and is found in high levels in newlyweds and the like, #2, is something that can cross over into autism and #3, often correlates with Tourette's syndrome.

I can't stand the sound of ceramic plates being scraped with silverware and can't get it out of my head when someone does it. I need things to be equal on both sides of me, both in feeling and sound, resulting in a lot of weird looks when I clap my hands on one side of my head and then on the other, or hit my leg because I bumped into something with the other, and then do it over and over again until it feels EXACTLY the same.

Now, when something goes "wrong" and I have to "fix" it, I have this thing that I do. I sort of shake like someone who thought they were alone being tapped on the shoulder. I need to shake to get this feeling in my neck that I crave whenever something rubs me the wrong way. Like with the silverware, *squeak* *shake*. My family jokes about it, and I've been asked by my friends several times, "Did you just, like, twitch?" "Uh, yeah. I do that."

I watched a documentary on Tourette's Syndrome and they described tics as being a feeling you HAVE to get, like scratching an itch, and you get it by moving a certain way. Like my shakes.

Oh boy oh boy oh boy. Where do I start...

I found this after typing "Asperger's" into the search. I've been looking for the correlation between AS and GID for some time now. All of the things that I quoted above are things that I can relate to. I feel like I'm always talking about this, but I do have AS and OCD. Right now, the treatment of my GID is on hold because my parents and I disagree on whether or not it's actually GID or just another symptom of Asperger's. I don't doubt that they're related, since AS does result in some degrees of gender neutrality or fluidity; what I do doubt is the claim that having AS without GID would make me want to go all the way and transition physically.

As for the stuff in bold, I've never read any of those things before, but I experience them. It'll even give me headaches sometimes, like when one of my eyes itch and I have to blink my other eye so that they both itch the same way. And the feeling that you get in your neck sounds like something I "have" to get in my head sometimes. Like if something bothers me mentally, maybe if I'm trying to stop thinking about something or feel like I'm being watched, I can roll my shoulders and tense up the muscles on my back, ears, jaw and scalp. It creates a kind of warm wave, as if some chemicals are being released in my brain. It's similar to the feeling of getting a sudden chill, and it goes from the top of my head and down, following my spine. It's more than just getting blood flowing under the skin. It's bizarre, I didn't know that other people did that.

I actually just sat here and measured my fingers like a dork. Both my ring fingers are longer than my index fingers by an eighth of an inch. Also: small boobs, hairy arms and legs (that's Italian), proportionately large and angular hands and feet, and an angular nose. On the other hand, I'm strangely bottom-heavy, including my legs. My upper body is unusually scrawny. But all in all, luck gave me a good template.

[Guest Anhelanti]

Yep, my ring fingers are noticeably longer than my index fingers. I also have facial hair (primarily on the right side of my face, but also on the left and my chin), REALLY hairy legs, belly and chest hair. My shoulders are definitely winder than my hips, although my hips are wider than my ribcage (it doesn't help that I have a weird dent in my chest). I have a bit of an adam's apple, but I can't say how low my voice is - I don't know anything about alto or soprano or whatnot. I also have a square jaw, and my overall facial structure is angular and more closely resembles my brother's than my sister's. I still look pretty girly for a guy though. Especially because I'm a lousy 5'4".

Oh, and I get the whole kinda OCD thing, too. Whilst I have no fear of mushrooms (in fact, I have the deepest fondness for them), I will spasm with revulsion at the sight of a bell pepper that's been cut open. Something about the seeds makes me feel horribly wrong.

Also, I always have to make sure everything is even, like you say. If I scratch an itch on one leg, I have to scratch the other. And I do this whole thing where I press each of my finger and toenails, so that each one feels equal pressure.

I have obsessive paranoia, where I have to look under my bed about five times a night, just to make sure that there's absolutely nothing under there (Even though I'm not in the slightest bit afraid of some kind of monster being there - I just *have* to check).

The most annoying (to my family) things I do are straighten the TV remotes until they're perfectly spaced and aligned, and make sure that the volume of the speakers is always set to an even number, but never a double number (i.e., 55 or 66. Just typing those numbers rubs me the wrong way.).

I never thought about Aspergers, autism, or OCD being related to GID though. That's really interesting.

[Guest Rachel Collins]

No adams apple, higher voice (although that might be in part cause i didnt go through puberty all the way yet, only 13) and my areolas are the same size as most girls my age, its wierd, i get teased a lot about my boobs, even though im not on hormones and im underweight

[Guest (Lightsider)]

Biological hints... Wow a loaded topic for sure. but it is interesting. While some say you don't need proof! just believe...other look for physical signs...common among us all.

If we don't do it...eventually Science will. The human race is naturally curious...we look to the stars and ask why?

So with that said...it is completely natural for us to look t ourselves for the proof.

I am short. 5'5"

shoulders are not broad.

hips are wide. have typical hour glass shape.

No adams apple.

no brow bossing

petite nose

jaw line is not prominent

small hands

I do think my reaction to estrogen at my age is telling.

What does it all mean? It would be neat to make a huge chart and figure out which trait is the most prominent among us...IF ANY.

But in the end analysis....no matter what is found it should NEVER be used to invalidate some ones experiences.

[Guest Mr.Yoav]

Interesting thoughts.... and you have a point.

My voice is deeper than most girls. I'm sort of flat chested, not really, but not nearly like the girls at school.

And I am hairy. I like to think I'm growing facial hair, but it's probably just peach fuzz.

My shoulders are wider than my hips. I actually found that out yesterday trying to squeeze into my closet... I couldn't fir because of my shoulders. I was so happy!

And I need everything symmetrical. I cannot even look at non-symmetrical pieces of jewelry that my mother makes. And I'm paranoid. I think everyone hates listening to me and no one cares. My best friend has to reassure me several times a day that she really likes having me around. I have no idea why that happens.

And my ring fingers are so much longer than my index finger. Creepy.

[Guest praisedbeherhooves]

Hmm lets see

- I have professionally diagnosed Asperger's Syndrome, though I am unusually high functioning (I can actually go to heavy metal concerts)

- I have thick bones for a biological female of my height.

- I have NO curves. I'm pretty lucky in this department. If I raise my hands my breasts completely disappear.

- My natural voice is deep-ish for a biological female. It's been described as a "gay guy" voice. If I deepen my voice sometimes I can get it to sound like a biological teen's voice.

- I'm projected to be between 5'6" and 5'8" as an adult height, though I'm only 5'4" now.

- I'm a men's 9 in shoe sizes/