A Place For Us?!?!?!?!

[Guest stranger]

This is what really, really bothers me about being androgyne. This is why I think it would be easier to be FtM:

[u]There isn't a social place in my society for people who I.D. as third gender![/u]

THAT is what bothers me about discovering myself to be androgyne-there's nowhere to transition TO, nothing to live fulltime AS, nothing I'm allowed to change on my documentation...

Not that I don't think requiring GRS before changing gender on important identity documents isn't a bunch of crap anyway, but...

I feel like I'm trying to be something that doesn't officially exist!

Look, it's the chupacabra! the loch ness monster! the androgyne!

BLAGH!!!!!

My wife says, oh, just change your haircut and the way you move,it'll be enough...

(If I walk any other way than the way I walk now, I'll hurt my feet; I have to prance toe-heel style, almost as if wearing a pair of invisible heels, or my tendons get strained. If I looked more like a guy I'd be described as very light in the loafers...)

The thing is, it IS a big deal...and it's really adding to the truly butt-kicking depressive episode I'm having right now...trying to get over it, but...

I just generally feel like I'm going nuts-oh wait, I AM going nuts-that's why I'm going to the shrink tomorrow...

And I can't tell the shrink about this! she might get all icked out and that would compromise my care with the county-yep, she's the department head... AAAAGH!

[Guest sarah f]

This is a hard one for me. I really don't understand how you truly feel because I have always felt like a woman and not in-between both. All I can do is offer my love and support of you. I hope someone else can come in here that feels the same as you and offer better advice.

Is there someway you can find another therapist so that you can let them truly know how you feel? I think this might help you release your frustrations on the gender issues.

Huggs

[Guest Donna Jean]

THAT is what bothers me about discovering myself to be androgyne-there's nowhere to transition TO, nothing to live fulltime AS, nothing I'm allowed to change on my documentation...

Not that I don't think requiring GRS before changing gender on important identity documents isn't a bunch of crap anyway, but...

I feel like I'm trying to be something that doesn't officially exist!

Look, it's the chupacabra! the loch ness monster! the androgyne!

Well, that's something that I've really never even thought of.....

I'm MTF and I have a direction...destuination and a therapist that I can tell all about it....

Gee, Hon....

I'm sorry that you feel that it's a plaec that's in limbo, but, I can see your point....

I wonder why you canh't tell the therapist? Most of them have heard about everything?

Huggs

Donna Jean

[Guest KimberlyF]

Ok, I see your point to an extent. But also, you know what you are. Transitioning is every bit if not more mental than the HRT and the SRS for me. It's deciding I'm going to live my life as me and screw everybody else regardless of how I turn out.

Transition to the point where you do what you want when you want and don't worry about others ideas of gender. And if there is a certain body part that stresses you or you need to change, work on that and don't let anyone tell you it can't be done.

You have the same rights to happiness as anyone else.

Kim

[Guest Dakota.P]

The question of "where do I belong" is probably one of the toughest to answer. Most likely because there is no one quite like you. You are unique and special.

~D

[Guest Alder]

oh I think I can understand this on myself, even if you change a few basic things... to actually be acknowledge as what you are, and not one or the other.

It's not about the documentation, that's all just BS in the end. But to be just seen as who you are -sigh- I got peed off at facebook when I made my new account, decided to not show any of the gender specifics, and it /still/ will she "Alder updated her blahblahblah" and I sat and glared at the screen for about 5 minutes... not out of offense to it, but out of sheer frustration that it still had to designate something what wasn't me. /rant

Though, I have to admit I'm a bit curious over the shrink myself.... aren't they there to help you not go crazier?

[Guest stranger]

You are unique and special.

Thanks all...

Sometimes I really wish I were unique like everybody else...

Didn't tell the Psych doc about the GID, did get higher dose o' happy pills-needed.

(My body is a veritable U.N. of foreign substances...)

[Guest Micha]

Look, it's the chupacabra! the loch ness monster! the androgyne!

BLAGH!!!!!

. . . Sorry, it's not funny, but you're right, this is frustrating.

What the hell do we actually transition to!?

What're the standards! Where's the guidlines!

Yeah, there's no road map, no directions, nada. Each individual is left to figure out what they need, with only other people's similarly subjective confusions to aid them.

I don't know what to do either. I tell myself just to act and think and feel like I want to, just see how far that can take me. That's a whole 'nother mess though, for . . . reasons.

[Guest Riam]

I know exactly what you mean. I get so depressed sometimes thinking about it. But we just have to carve out our own place, you know?

[Guest KimberlyF]

Yeah, there's no road map, no directions, nada. Each individual is left to figure out what they need, with only other people's similarly subjective confusions to aid them.

This is similar to what it's like for a transsexual. Our route might have better markers at this point, but where we stop on the road is a deeply personal decision and what's right for one isn't right for another although there are some very opinionated people out there always read to question ones legitimacy if you don't go all in.

I do think it might be harder for you all. And not because so much of the inner battle, but the hardest part of our journey always seems to be the in between. Even though internally we're feeling so much better about ourselves. Its how the world sees us that is causing the stress. But then at some point society will know how to deal with a lot of us. I don't know if you ever get that.

Kim

[Guest Donna Jean]

Our route might have better markers at this point, but where we stop on the road is a deeply personal decision and what's right for one isn't right for another although there are some very opinionated people out there always read to question ones legitimacy if you don't go all in.

Kim

Exactly!

I'm a huge believer in the "Gender Spectrum"....

It's male on one end and female on the other with infinite stops in between....

And what we all have to do is dial in where we're the most comfortable...

Like Kim says...there are people that will question ones legitimacy if you don't commit to full male or full female mode....and I find that to be serious B.S.

We go to where it suits us, makes us comfortable and happy...

Donna Jean

[Guest SidESlicker]

*hugs*

Go find another therapist or counsellor. If you feel like you can't be open with your therapist, they shouldn't be your therapist.

And yeah... sometimes identifying as andro/bi gendered/two spirited/gender nuetral/Dorothy's Oz Friends is hard. We don't have really a lot of role models to look up to, and there's no tools and resources to really help us.

So screw them. We'll make our own.

I'm a big believer in the Mosaic Principal, where our community (the entire queer community) only works if all of us are filled with pride and acceptance. So yeah, right now at this point, society doesn't know what to do with us miscelleneous folk, and that's fine. We can be empowered by our identity despite other people not quite understanding it. It's how history a la queer people always has worked.

And yeah, I get it that just changing your physical appearance isn't enough. It usually never is. I recommend doing some soul searching about things that make you feel connected with your body, to hell with gender and sex.

It's okay to go crazy over this stuff. Shrinks are good stuff, but only if you can be open with them. So find a new one if you don't feel comfortable telling this one stuff.

[Guest Chi_Adore]

Awww hun, I totally know how you feel!

There seems to be no road maps showing us the way and it seems we have no place to go; in my opinion that is and is not true.

We of the third gender have a lot of discovering to do, and I like to think of myself as an explorer much like Christopher Columbus.

Where Columbus sought a new world, I search for what works for me, and try to help others do the same. I feel like I'm exploring the unknown, and its scary, but its exciting too!

Every time I discover something about my gender I feel like I have uncovered a new area of life, and if the discovery is true for me it may be true for others too!

With out Columbus' adventurous spirit we wouldn't be where we are today. I like to think we are doing the same: building a better future for folks like us.

This road may feel lonely, but it has a lot to do with perception: of self, of the outside world, and where we find balance in between the two.

For myself personally, I find friends just as good as therapists, and rely on each when it seems appropriate. Connection and communication are what we need most I think.

I'm sure there are tons of people feeling exactly the way you are, and I think with a little effort we can come up with ways to unite us.

When I feel like a girl, I own it. I completely am what female feels like to me. The same goes for when I feel like a boy. I AM a boy/male/masculine. When I feel both/3rd gendered (which is most of the time), I am a ME. I act like I feel like acting, and don't worry about how people perceive me. I don't think "is this action/word/thought male? is it female?" it just is and I find it the most freeing experience I know of!

I hope this helps, we are out here.

Love & *huggles*

-Z

[Guest Lacey Lynne]

Yo:

The bad news is:

There is no DEFINED place for androgynes.

The good news is:

The androgynes get to define their place THEMSELVES.

Consider yourself a pioneer and a trailblazer. You are boldly going where no man and no woman has gone before ... front and center ... and it's awesome!

The larger society worldwide will ALWAYS detest any kind of pioneer in any type of endeavor be it physical, spiritual and/or conceptual.

Why?

Because, they are stupid.

Those of an attuned and honed observatory capacity realize that the tale of the human race is the tale of evolution ... not physical evolution as propounded by Charles Darwin but rather mental and spiritual evolution heretofore not formally propounded by anybody recognized as credible and authoritative.

Mental and spiritual advances of humanity are made by a very, very, very small cohort from each and every generation. These people are the visionaries ... the trailblazers ... the avatars. The general society sees them as kooks, lulus and weirdos. Why? Again, because the general society is stupid.

We would all be live primitive, crude and short lives ... were it not for those bold and audacious men and women of each generation who have a vision and follow it ... no matter what. Think about that. You'll realize how true it really is.

Remember, only a few centuries ago, most of humanity was altogether primitive and savage. There was nature and the elements, the plants, the animals and us. Law of the jungle. How did we get from that to the world we have today? You KNOW the answer.

Be the androgyne you are. Hold your head high. Rock your world. Smile. Look 'em in the eye. Nod "Hello!" to 'em. Constant exposure (to ANYTHING) can and will bring them around to accepting it.

This is to a large degree why I'm still in androgyne mode myself. Dang, I LOVE to fry their meager minds. They deserve it. Those of us of the elder generation on here well remember our youth when coming out as gay or bisexual was nearly a death sentence. Today, it's widely accepted and tolerated if not altogether embraced. Why? The answer lies just above. The gays did what I'm advising YOU to do.

Now, it won't be easy, but it WILL be WORTH it. Futuer androgynes decades hence will thank and respect you.

Rock your world. Go get it. Just be you.

Lacey Lynne

[Guest GQkid13]

I feel ya...i'm a Pansexual Genderqueer so there really isn't anywhere for me...

[Guest CariadsCarrot]

there's nowhere to transition TO, nothing to live fulltime AS

I don't know how I identify yet. I spent my childhood knowing I should be a boy but then things happened that made me afraid to be a man and now I don't feel like anything. This is pretty much exactly word for word what I said to my therapist the other week. She said it sounded like a very confusing and lonely place to be. It feels it right now.

[Guest Melanie Dawn]

ya, i dont get it either... I mean i am in my late 20s and asexual/androgyn peopole have always been around and way more visible than trans people (that i ever saw). I think being like that is easier to understand.. basically you dont put forth any sex/gender... where as i am changing mine. not to put you in the same circle... but to me it's kinda like the nuns we had in school... they were genderless... I guess I am just rambling as i don't get it.

[Guest ~Brenda~]

Hon,

It pains me to see you this way.

"Officially exist?" How you feel about yourself is very important and your sense of self is official and does exist. Why do you think Laura's includes androgynous people? Why? Well because androgyny is recognized as an equal part of the gender spectrum as identifying with female or male.

Listen dear, you do not have anything to prove to us or to anyone else. Finding your true self and to be content is what we all want for you and for everyone

And I can't tell the shrink about this! she might get all icked out and that would compromise my care with the county-yep, she's the department head...

I may be wrong, but I sense that you may be worried to share your feelings with the one person you really should be sharing with... your therapist. Therapy is not really constructive if you hide from how you truly feel.

Please know that you are understood more than you may really know, and that you are accepted.

You are OK! Just being yourself is what opens the door to happiness. I know you will find your way

Love

Brenda

[Guest Dibz]

This is exactly how I've been feeling lately.

When I was little I was dead set on being a boy. Then came repression, being a girl (to an extent). Now as I'm releasing the old pressure, I don't know what or where I am anymore. But at least we have this forum. That alone shows we're not alone where we stand and that there are others who know we exist.

[Guest Ulysses]

I feel ya...i'm a Pansexual Genderqueer so there really isn't anywhere for me...

I've started feeling this way myself lately, that there really isn't anywhere for me... I'm pansexual and androgynous myself. I recently started going to an lgbt group in my city, and while I love the people there and wouldn't miss a single meet for the world, I always feel a bit left out or unable to relate. As far as I know, I'm the only pansexual and androgynous person out of forty-some members. Then again, I feel that same way around anyone: faced with a room of men and women, I never know where to go.

[Guest Foosnark]

I haven't had as long to think about this as many others here, but I know what you mean. FtM and MtF people have, by comparison, a clear goal that society can understand: they want to be on the other side of the wall.

Androgynes, third-gender, gender-fluid etc. people just kind of fly over, tunnel under, walk through or sit on top of that wall, and society isn't entirely prepared to deal with that. To some extent I'm not sure we're prepared for it ourselves, at least not immediately. Maybe we're biologically wired to distinguish the sexes of potential mates and rivals, or maybe it's solely the 24/7 messages society is sending out.

I find a lot of freedom in not having to conform to the standards of either sex. Where it comes to personality and interests I have never been very good at being a guy, usually hated trying, and always hated being compared to the standard; I also sometimes resented dressing the part. Where it comes to looks, I have no expectation that I'd ever be able to pass as female. Where I am now I don't have to worry about either (except see below).

On the other hand: for the sake of conformity, I cling more to "guy mode" than I would necessarily like to (*), and I worry more about what other people think of my gender presentation than I wish I did. The idea of a sudden total physical change appeals to me mostly because it removes the responsibility (and presumably I could get a nice healthy fit body in the bargain).

(*) On the other other hand: defaulting to male does make it easier in social situations that expect binary. I don't necessarily like it, but there it is. I would like it less if I were pushed over to the female side without my permission (I'd feel like I was being mocked, and I'm just not used to the idea yet of being something besides male.)

[Guest Micha]

^{Keeping in mind that everything is subjective. . .}

Tha's my situation too, not being able to pass as one, uncomfortable with the other and not wanting to be either. I do think I'd rather be female though, if I had to chose between the two, and I'd rather be treated as female than male if I had to be treated based on gender. My biggest issue is that gender affects how people treat each other, as well as how people are expected to act.

Now, trans men and transwomen have a "clear goal that society can understand," that much is true. Society en masse doesn't see a gender spectrum, but a binary system without choice (you are your genitals). A ts that passes can live amongst that society in stealth without much fear of incident, so long as they avoid being outed. In this regard I have utmost respect for transexuals who live out in the open, without shame or remorse, to advocate trans rights.

A genderqueer person has goals too, thoough it may not be as clear as moving across the spectrum. First is figuring out where we are on said spectrum, then where we want/need to be. Then there's figuring out how to live as such, and adjusting our lives accordingly. As far as society is concerned, we don't have practical goals; we exist merely to confuse and pervert everything around us. Where society could, if they so chose (and they clearly don't, as of now), understand the goals of a transexual, they have no comprehension or tolerance for the goals of anyone non binary. Makes reaching our goals (for those of us who can identify them) a lot more difficult than it really should be.

However, amongst the masses there isn't a place for the gender queer, as really there isn't a place for anyone who's transgender (again, anyone living in stealth can blend in so long as they're not read, but all in all, if the majority of people knew you were trans, it wouldn't matter to them if it was ts or gq, you'd be condemned as a freak of nature or sinner against "God"). That is really the biggest difference, a ts has more chance of blending in and living stealth than a gq does.

I can only hope, as far as society goes, that the movement for trans rights continues forward, gaining momentum and opening minds. I would expect transexuals to gain acceptance first, society still expecting people to conform to a binary system. But then maybe society would open up to the idea of a gender spectrum, and thus, genderqueer wouldn't be taboo anymore.

[Guest Foosnark]

However, amongst the masses there isn't a place for the gender queer, as really there isn't a place for anyone who's transgender (again, anyone living in stealth can blend in so long as they're not read, but all in all, if the majority of people knew you were trans, it wouldn't matter to them if it was ts or gq, you'd be condemned as a freak of nature or sinner against "God"). That is really the biggest difference, a ts has more chance of blending in and living stealth than a gq does.

I can only hope, as far as society goes, that the movement for trans rights continues forward, gaining momentum and opening minds. I would expect transexuals to gain acceptance first, society still expecting people to conform to a binary system. But then maybe society would open up to the idea of a gender spectrum, and thus, genderqueer wouldn't be taboo anymore.

Well, yeah; to a certain mindset that is all too prominent still, we are all either gay or insane or evil or all of the above. Because the only reason a person with male anatomy would ever be "womanly" is to deceive good Christian men into having gay sex. And it's not just social conservatives that think this way either, sadly. In gamer culture, there's the good old "it's a trap" when referring to MtF or crossdressers, and I've been called a sick pervert for playing female characters. (Because that automatically means I want to cyber with every male character on the server, right?)

As I've posted elsewhere, I think acceptance of transgendered people will come sometime after acceptance of homosexuality, and genderqueer will be last. And all of that is continuing the chain started with equal rights for women, which really has some distance to go still. That follows in about the same order as political leverage, population, and ease of comprehension.

I've always considered myself fairly open-minded, but only a couple of years ago, *I* was thrown for a loop when this beautiful girl I knew announced that they had considered themself androgyne for years and was now going female-to-intersex. This was even after supporting my brother in his transition from female to male, and having the occasional thoughts that maybe there's something non-male in my head.

The idea of a gender binary might be a difficult thing to dislodge; it seems more likely society will accept "guy in a skirt" before it admits that maybe that's not a guy, beard or not.

And after that comes transhumanism...