What Does Passing Mean To You?

[Guest Orva26]

I went with the second choice for the first poll and the first one for the second poll. I haven't yet made an attempt at passing and to me doing so would be getting treated as the gender I am presenting as.

But, I also have strong sentiments that passing is a flawed concept. It actually annoys me to an extent. I think it should be a personal choice as in people shouldn't have to do everything as long as they are comfortable. A personal example, my voice causes me no grievance but yet if I were to socially transition and leave it as is people would immediately know/feel something is up regardless of how I turn out physically. I could turn out as super model material but once I talked everyone would be all. o_O Part of that might be the fear of trying though...

IDK, its just annoying that society makes it so the thing to do is pass and to an extent that is even true within the trans community. I guess the ideal for me would be if passing was more 'optional'. Those who wish to do it or who need to to be themselves can but society would be at a point of maturity where if one does not then people are not freaked out by that.

Personally I am finding societies were gender is non-binary more and more admirable. Though I do want HRT and some level of social transition I really like the concept of two-spirited and the level of reverence that was held for them in society. I actually had a fairly recent pseudo-dream (one of those weird ones that started out as a day-dream but became so in depth I'm not sure if I dozed off during it or not) set back a couple of 100 years. Where I was found wounded by indigenous peoples. They took me and healed me but the healing involved herbs, medicine, and rites that feminized me much like HRT would, as if their mystics could see into me and know of my gender issues. By the end of it I was fully female but everyone knew of my origins and regard me in almost a mystical way. It was kind of nice.

I guess society reaching a point similar to that would be my ideal. When it becomes the social norm to understand and accept people regardless of their gender identity, but we're still a far cry away from that so in the meantime the goal is to seek recognition of the gender I present as... once I get started that is.

-Orva

[Sally]

Drea,

You asked for a little more discussion about what passing really means so here comes my take on the subject, the ideas here are mine with absolutely no substantiating facts from anywhere but my own experience and the fact that I seem to have no trouble blending in at a height of 6'4" and a weight now down to 296 pounds.

I believe that the idea of passing is to assimilate into society and just live as your true gender but unfortunately most of us warp that concept in our minds from becoming average or just passable into an obsession with becoming passable as a movie star or supermodel.

In reality men and women come in so many varieties, shapes and sizes that is difficult to not pass if you do not obsess on it - passing is a natural thing, if you seem comfortable with yourself then others will be too, part of our problem is our nervousness and that cues people to look closer - a lot of natal males and females could not pass the additional scrutiny and they are not trying to pass.

So in my definition of passing it is not how you pass in society, it is how you pass in your own mind because if you are truly comfortable society will be comfortable with you.

Love ya,

Sally

[Drea]

IDK, its just annoying that society makes it so the thing to do is pass and to an extent that is even true within the trans community. I guess the ideal for me would be if passing was more 'optional'. Those who wish to do it or who need to to be themselves can but society would be at a point of maturity where if one does not then people are not freaked out by that.

I tend to think that there is a general perception that society is so much more intolerant than it really is. I suspect part of this perception is due to anxiety about the whole comming out thing. It seemed to me however that the vast majority just don't care a whole much.

I have known more than a few who, post transition, have opted for the being out and proud way of living their life. Have chosen to identify as trans.

[Guest NatashaJade]

I no longer see it as a question of passing. Passing, as a term, implies a kind of inauthentic action...that I am trying to deceive someone into thinking I am something I am not. I am not trying to pass myself off as a woman. I'm just being myself as the woman I am and, as such, I hope not to be recognized in any other fashion. I've heard the word "blending" used from time to time, but I prefer just to be. I can walk through the world and be recognized for who I am, treated (for better or worse) as a woman and not worry.

I think when folks post a picture of themselves, rather than ask if we pass or be told that we pass, we should be asking if we appear to be who we are and answered in kind.

So don't pass. Be.

xoxo

Tasha

[Guest Elizabeth K]

I tend to think that there is a general perception that society is so much more intolerant than it really is. I suspect part of this perception is due to anxiety about the whole coming out thing. It seemed to me however that the vast majority just don't care a whole much.

I have known more than a few who, post transition, have opted for the being out and proud way of living their life. Have chosen to identify as trans.

I think that is an excellent observation - our anxiety over 'passing'(a word I don' like) seems to be a roadblock in becoming ourselves and blending in to society.

******************************

And I don't mean to sound like an elitist here. Some of us just don't make a good transition for many reasons, physical, age, profession, but also financial. I know several T-Girls in my LGBTQ group who don't 'pass' and - well... do not want to pass - make no effort at all. {All the guys look grand - go figure!] There is an 'in your face' attitude sometimes that really bothers me. Two in particular - I love them to, death - but...well... when I go out with them it's 100% sure they are 'read' and I am looked at as 'questionable.' So I only go to places transfriendly when with them - because I have to live in this city as me. People know me as a woman.

I have asked why they WANT to be read, and they say 'F*** IT!"

And there are some in our group, those who are seemingly able to present and blend in, who won't do it. They are activists of a sort, so I guess that is their purpose in life, and that is okay. BUT why not enjoy being yourself and all the fun of just dressing appropriately? It's not what they want. But everyone makes their choices.

So I am staying around to help others through what I have been through, and to be with the wonderful friends I have made.

But I am where 'I' need to be. I am not an 'in-you-face' transperson, nor an activist of the TRANSPROUD type. Behind the scenes is my preference. Just me. And I am not stealth-minded, I haven't transitioned and disappeared.

So - these discussions? Yes - good stuff. BUT now, many of you can be proud to be a woman (or man), one who transitioned.

It is your option to flaunt it or go past it.

Lizzy

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora,

Just a point of interest...

Not so long ago 'passing/blending in' was the be all and end all for transsexual-people Most medical professionals [15-20 years ago] wouldn't have anything to do with a 'trans' person who was not naturally 'androgynous' enough to blend in after HRT and surgery ...

What was once an all important 'test' to 'pass' is not longer an obstacle, now it is only a problem that relate to a trans-person's 'personal' comfort level...

So in a sense back then, 'all' transsexual-people who wanted to transition 'did' have to 'pass' the 'appearance' test ...

Metta Zenda

[Guest Leah1026]

Quickly add my 2 cents.

"Passing" is a flawed concept because:

1. It infers deception. We are not deceieving anyone, in fact we're being honest and authentic. If a word must be used in conversation I'll use "blend". "Blend" does not infer deception.

2. It continues the cycle of living for the approval of others. The only person's approval you need is your own.

[Guest Lacey Lynne]

I agree with Donna Jean. I "pass" even when I think I don't! I prefer to blend in with the other women at the time and be treated the same as they are no matter if it is good or bad. People do not even take a second look at me anymore in my daily life. When I first started all I could think of was being able to "pass" but since going full-time I am more worried about what I am doing rather than what other people are thinking.

Jamie:

Girl, when you gonna give me lessons, hon?

You've got it goin' on. You're out there living your life as the woman you are, passing, loving it and being accepted. Rock on, hon.

You obviously know A LOT that I don't know. Now, I'm a little shy of 1 year and 2 months on HRT and STILL am in androgyne mode. I've only been out fully en femme once but it was at the major mall nearby and that was for 2 hours or so. No problems though I was scared s-less but didn't show it.

My avatar pic here was taken 2 months ago, and I'm actually rather more feminine now with better curves and breast development than in this pic. Thing is that I'm worried stupid about NOT passing and either getting bullied by young punks or hassled by the cops. Girl, I'm gettin' too old for that!

So, Jamie, what am I doing wrong? Wish I had your know-how and confidence.

Rock on, girl! I admire you; I really do. Heck, I admire EVERYBODY on here that has gone full-time, transgirl or transguy. It takes cajones, mon!

[Guest SidESlicker]

I have a big love/hate relationship when it comes to passing.

On one hand, as a queer activist, I hate it when people who have "fully transitioned" leave the queer community completely. We need our Old Guard to guide us, and those who have experiences and life lessons should always share them for those who need them. That's how the queer community (in this happy baby butch's mind) works.

I hate that some people see passing as going stealth, and as soon as Average Joe and Regular Margaret don't raise an eyebrow to you in the grocery store, that erases your identity as a trans woman/trans man and makes you part of the cis-gendered community. And I hate that people buy into it, because doing that essentially denies a part of yourself, a part of your childhood and a big part of the relationship you have with yourself. And I'm all about loving and accepting yourself unconditionally.

On the other hand, being able to look at yourself in a mirror and see yourself, whether it took countless hours of therapy, surgery and hormones, tears and fits of rage, it's so worth it. And if passing is what it takes for you to look in the mirror and not to see the man that was lost and confused for all his life and instead see the proud and confident woman you are now or want to be, then you should never lose sight of that.

The part that bothers me about the concept of passing is that it can, not always, enforce gender stereotypes. And I hate that a big part of passing (not all of it) is about making women look femmineme and men look masculine.

If that's who you are, then all the power to you. If you are a woman who feels gorgeous and sexy in a pencil skirt and heels, and it makes you feel confident and connected with your body, then never let go of that feeling, and go and buy the clothes that make you feel like yourself. If you are a man who can rattle off the list of the top cologne's in the industry, works on his motorcyle when he gets home, then drinks beer and watches HBO on the couch, then hey, I hope you enjoy your beer.

But I don't think every woman should strive to be that girl who wants to wear the heels. And not all men should feel like they should be masculine.

Because masculinity and femminity shouldn't have anything to do with your gender or your sex. The way you express your body shouldn't be dependent on what's between your legs or how you feel about what's between your legs. I wish it was more mainstream to see MtF's with mohawks and more FtM's with jeans that fit their body comfortably, not ones that look awkward because they feel awkward.

My conclusion to this rant is that you should be happy and feel like yourself. If doing so happens to coincide what society says a man/woman looks like and that makes you happy, then go and run with it. And if it doesn't, then that's just fine too.

/queer rant

[Guest Orva26]

I wish it was more mainstream to see MtF's with mohawks{/quote]

This is getting ahead of myself but, I TOTALLY WOULD! Or maybe something like the guy to the right in the first pic. Or some craziness such as this delicious fem-boy. Seriously, everyone drools over Bill Kaulitz.

But alas, with the job I have and would like to keep such a thing would not be possible for anyone. Pity one of the things I never did when I had my hair long was spike it out or do something fancy with it.

I agree with the rant. I don't see myself transitioning and being a girlie, girl. Now I will want pretty things and to do stuff like wear heels but that isn't going to be the norm. Plus, heels + laboratory = HELL NO! Nobody should be prancing around while carting concentrated phosphoric acid.

Also, if you don't mind me asking, what is the meaning of the term baby butch? I know what butch entails but I haven't come across baby butch before.

[Guest SidESlicker]

Orva, you're kind of my hero....

Also, if you don't mind me asking, what is the meaning of the term baby butch? I know what butch entails but I haven't come across baby butch before.

Baby butch is a term that's commonly (though not exclusively) used in the lesbian community to describe a young person who has typically butch characteristics (short hair, jeans, belt, typically masculine) but is too cute and small to actually pass as a butch. At times, a baby butch will one day grow into their combat boots and fill out their muscle tank tops, or they will forever be known as that forty year old lesbian with the baby face.

Like Justin Bieber. If Justin was a lesbian, he would be a baby butch.

The other form of it is baby (other word for lesbian). I can't type it out here, because the censors block it, but it starts with a D.

[Guest N.Chaos]

I have a big love/hate relationship when it comes to passing.

On one hand, as a queer activist, I hate it when people who have "fully transitioned" leave the queer community completely. We need our Old Guard to guide us, and those who have experiences and life lessons should always share them for those who need them. That's how the queer community (in this happy baby butch's mind) works.

I hate that some people see passing as going stealth, and as soon as Average Joe and Regular Margaret don't raise an eyebrow to you in the grocery store, that erases your identity as a trans woman/trans man and makes you part of the cis-gendered community. And I hate that people buy into it, because doing that essentially denies a part of yourself, a part of your childhood and a big part of the relationship you have with yourself. And I'm all about loving and accepting yourself unconditionally.

On the other hand, being able to look at yourself in a mirror and see yourself, whether it took countless hours of therapy, surgery and hormones, tears and fits of rage, it's so worth it. And if passing is what it takes for you to look in the mirror and not to see the man that was lost and confused for all his life and instead see the proud and confident woman you are now or want to be, then you should never lose sight of that.

The part that bothers me about the concept of passing is that it can, not always, enforce gender stereotypes. And I hate that a big part of passing (not all of it) is about making women look femmineme and men look masculine.

If that's who you are, then all the power to you. If you are a woman who feels gorgeous and sexy in a pencil skirt and heels, and it makes you feel confident and connected with your body, then never let go of that feeling, and go and buy the clothes that make you feel like yourself. If you are a man who can rattle off the list of the top cologne's in the industry, works on his motorcyle when he gets home, then drinks beer and watches HBO on the couch, then hey, I hope you enjoy your beer.

But I don't think every woman should strive to be that girl who wants to wear the heels. And not all men should feel like they should be masculine.

Because masculinity and femminity shouldn't have anything to do with your gender or your sex. The way you express your body shouldn't be dependent on what's between your legs or how you feel about what's between your legs. I wish it was more mainstream to see MtF's with mohawks and more FtM's with jeans that fit their body comfortably, not ones that look awkward because they feel awkward.

My conclusion to this rant is that you should be happy and feel like yourself. If doing so happens to coincide what society says a man/woman looks like and that makes you happy, then go and run with it. And if it doesn't, then that's just fine too.

/queer rant

I agree with you entirely, I just wish more people did as well. I've seen a lot of ridiculous infighting, especially on deviantart, between ftm's over whether or not they were "Acting like girls". Which, to me at least, is a complete load of crap. Anyone that's spent ANY amount of time with people that aren't trying desperately to fit into some kind of John Q Humdrum mold realize that there are an infinite amount of personality traits, masculine and feminine. And by that account, there are an infinite amount of combinations that can be made of those, regardless of gender. So on and so on (I can't think worth crap right now because my neighbors are blaring their Gosh darned tv again)

But at any rate, Sid, I think you made excellent points. I've fought with myself on and off about it but I've recently come to a "F it all" standpoint. I'm gonna go out, as myself, wearing my boots and straight-legged jeans and occasional eyeliner. And I'll work up the testicles to correct every person who calls me a girl, eventually. I said it somewhere else (I think), but I've always thought it was kind of ridiculous and a little sad that so many people seem to think/want us to think that in this struggle to become ourselves, we should deny aspects of ourselves. I'm with you all the way, Sid. I'd love to see mtf's with mohawks and short, cute choppy hair. I've seen some gorgeous ftm's decked out in the gothy-goodness that still look male and are just flat-out pretty. Whatever the situation, especially for us, you should never have to edit out parts of yourself. It's hell enough to do it with gender, why in the world should we do it with things as insignifigant and petty as clothing choices and personal styles?

[Guest TracieV3]

I have not gotten to the point of being on HRT yet. Let alone transitioning. But I plan too. I am saving money and should be able to start that ball rolling on HRT in three months or so.

For me, "passing" is about a less chance of someone giving me grief or harming me for just 'being myself'.

When I transition, I plan to do it as 'being myself'. I do not want to try to pretend to be someone else. I have long since tired and loath doing that for the last thirty years of my life.

For some people, it seems transition and passing about is 'acting' as gender cliches they feel they should. But, that is not what transition and passing is about. It is about being yourself, and not find yourself in another 'social box' on the other end of the spectrum.

Does anyone else understand what I am saying?

Tracie

[Guest Orva26]

Such eloquence, Tracie! I completely agree and understand your points. I once said, "I want to transition to an Orva." Then end point should be a self we are comfortable with. Right now I'm getting real temped to make that one of them mohawk mtfs.

Baby butch is a term that's commonly (though not exclusively) used in the lesbian community to describe a young person who has typically butch characteristics (short hair, jeans, belt, typically masculine) but is too cute and small to actually pass as a butch. At times, a baby butch will one day grow into their combat boots and fill out their muscle tank tops, or they will forever be known as that forty year old lesbian with the baby face.

Pass as butch seems ludicrous to me. I've always conceptualized butch as more of a personality type than a look. Guess that's why baby butch didn't really make sense to me as a term. I was pretty much correct in my guess though: a few hours after posting the question I thought, "Hey maybe a baby butch is just a butch that doesn't fit the stereotype."

[Guest Lacey Lynne]

I'm with Donna Jean on this. I will consider myself as being able to pass when I'm viewed 100% as a woman. I'm not putting myself through all of this to not be able to live my life as I have always wanted. I don't care about having supermodel looks, in fact I would rather be plain so I can live without being noticed, or bothered. I just want to be me.

Monika

Count me in with Monika and Dee Jay, on this one, gang.

You can all see my pic there. Well, tell ya what: I never, ever, never get "Ma'am-ed" at any time. Of course, guess that's because I'm publicly presenting as an androgyne presently and get "sir-ed" but with weird glances or a snide tone.

What's kept me from going full-time principally has been lack of confidence and still having the beard. Electrolysis is mucho expensivo where I live. Have not had the means to do it yet. Besides, I don't know if I'll every be able to pass. Honestly.

Well, I'm going full-time anyway. Heck with 'em. Let 'em laugh. Finally, I'll be myself. That's more than good enough and more than worth it. So, I'll never pass. Fine. Life goes on and life is good.

Lacey

[Guest SidESlicker]

Pass as butch seems ludicrous to me. I've always conceptualized butch as more of a personality type than a look. Guess that's why baby butch didn't really make sense to me as a term. I was pretty much correct in my guess though: a few hours after posting the question I thought, "Hey maybe a baby butch is just a butch that doesn't fit the stereotype."

Everyone has different opinions on what Butch really means, especially once you meet the people who do identify one way or the other as butch.

Some say it's a noun, while other's say it's a social role. Still others say it's a look/attitude that a person can carry. Finally there are other people who just say that butch is an interchangable word that can be used with "tough"

Lols, I think everyone's opinion is valid on what "butch" means. And yeah, you pretty much nailed it. Baby Butch's are just the ones who don't/can't fit in with the stereotype of the super-tough lesbian in the corner.

And I'm glad to hear that you like my opinions N.Chaos It's good to know that people agree with what I have to say

[Guest jamiejcmo]

Lacey, it is as you say confidence. I was in the same place as you, everyone told me I looked feminie but I didn't think so. I was so scared to go out in girl mode even though I was out at work. My sister kept telling me to relax and I would be fine! Of course it took a while to sink in but once I relaxed and just started being me it happened. Soon I was going to the stores in boy jeans and baggy shirts and was getting ma'amed. It's a combination of just relaxing and letting the real "girl" in you show to the outside world. I only wear mascara girls jeans and sweaters 90% of the time. People don't pay as much attention to details as we think. Once you let the girl show through"mannerisms, they way you carry yourself and the vibes you put off" people just do a quick glance and think " just another girl". The hardest part for me was interacting with other women strangers. You just have to interact and you will catch on just as teenage girls learn to be women. I think you would pass fine and just need to jump in! If others can tell you are nervous then they will pay closer attention. It's not easy but after you do it and get the confidence and attitude if will all fall into place and pretty soon you won't even have to try. Let Lacey come out and play. Jamie

[Guest Lacey Lynne]

Lacey, it is as you say confidence. I was in the same place as you, everyone told me I looked feminie but I didn't think so. I was so scared to go out in girl mode even though I was out at work. My sister kept telling me to relax and I would be fine! Of course it took a while to sink in but once I relaxed and just started being me it happened. Soon I was going to the stores in boy jeans and baggy shirts and was getting ma'amed. It's a combination of just relaxing and letting the real "girl" in you show to the outside world. I only wear mascara girls jeans and sweaters 90% of the time. People don't pay as much attention to details as we think. Once you let the girl show through"mannerisms, they way you carry yourself and the vibes you put off" people just do a quick glance and think " just another girl". The hardest part for me was interacting with other women strangers. You just have to interact and you will catch on just as teenage girls learn to be women. I think you would pass fine and just need to jump in! If others can tell you are nervous then they will pay closer attention. It's not easy but after you do it and get the confidence and attitude if will all fall into place and pretty soon you won't even have to try. Let Lacey come out and play. Jamie

Jamie:

OMG, hon,thanks! This is EXACTLY what I need to hear. This makes my day, my week, my month, my year, ... well, you get the idea. Just yesterday, the best gender counselor in Portland accepted me as a client. He's a transman and is awesome. I see him in about 5-6 weeks to get a carry letter and to officially verify that I'm going full-time to start my RLE/RLT and qualify for my SRS/GRS letters.

You're so right, Jamie. The one and only time I went out in public fully en femme, it was at our major mall nearby. Yeah, I believe in REALLY going for it. No half-way measures for this girl. Hon, I go to that mall nearly EVERY day. The employees there ALL know me by sight.

NOT ONE OF THEM CLOCKED OR MADE ME!!!

Believe me, I'd have gotten the grins, the giggles, the comments the next day going back in guy mode. That DID NOT happen. Doggone!

I believe you're right, girl! Gotta relax! Why am I so chicken-doodoo about this?

Hugs!

Lacey