New Thai Airline Hires Three Transwomen As Flight Attendants

[Guest Pammy]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/8288327/Newly-formed-Thai-airline-recruits-Ladyboys-as-air-hostesses.html

I have an issue or two with this. First, I hate the term "ladyboy", even though it is Thai and not insulting. The other is making everyone wear some kind of gender badge so customers can tell which is male, female and trans.

But this may be a step forward anyway.

Pamela

[Carolyn Marie]

That's quite interesting, Pamela. Thanks for posting it.

I'm not quite sure how I feel about the whole thing. Seems too much like a publicity stunt. Why not just hire them and treat them like

any other employee, instead of turning it into a circus? Yes, and the name badges, too. PC Air will be the preferred airline

of all admirers and pervs, with that little detail. Sheesh!

Carolyn Marie

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora Pam & Carolyn,

An Australian called Peter Jackson [no not the Lord of the Rings Peter Jackson-he's a Kiwi] anyway, he had studied the Kathoey of Thailand, you might want to read this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathoey perhaps it will give the reader more insight to the whole acceptance thing in Thailand, that is, the Kathoeys are seen as the 'third gender' and many it would seem are comfortable with this classification...

The airline owner is not being derogatory in anyway, he's just providing jobs and at the same time cashing in on cultural norms, so to speak...

Thailand's a weird and wonderful place to visit and the Thai people are great

Metta Zenda

[Guest littleboombox]

Due to the Thai culture, I think it is acceptable to label them publicly as "transgendered" because they don't hold stigma as they do here.

The middle one's make up seems overdone to pass off as an average woman's, but if it's not a problem in Thailand, I think the situation is okay.

[Guest Donna Jean]

Thailand's a weird and wonderful place to visit and the Thai people are great

Metta Zenda

I agree, Hon....I've been there half a dozen times myself and the "norm" there is not like other places...

Huggs

Donna Jean

[guest]

Why not just hire them and treat them like

any other employee, instead of turning it into a circus? Yes, and the name badges, too. PC Air will be the preferred airline

of all admirers and pervs, with that little detail.

I think being trans should be able to be celebrated and wanted... instead of what it seems a lot of trans people feel (that it never existed and they were simply male or female from the start).

When a man likes a woman because she is a woman... he is normal.

When a man likes a trans because she is trans... he is a perv and a sicko. Does that make trans people sicko's too? Or just people who would think of them as attractive? Or are people not allowed to like the different aspect?

Is it bad to show off TRANS sex appeal? Or is it only right to show off sex appeal when we are presenting totally male or totally female?

You can have a woman dancing around half naked showing her body... and no one has a problem.

You can have a man doing the same and no one has a problem (other than homophobia).

But, if a trans person does it... they are labeled perverted?

Personally, I hope for a day when it is OK to celebrate being trans. When it isn't a dirty label that is left behind us when we can finally "pass". Where trans people and those who like us aren't thought of as some type of deviants.

[Guest Patsy]

This was covered a while ago here, in "The Age" ( a Victorian daily newspaper)...as I understand it, the airline itself

doesn't actually exist as yet.

What I did find depressing, to the point that it ruined my morning, were the comments beneath the article...revolting!

And this in a newspaper that is allegedly liberal and progressive.....sigh.

I certainly wasn't going to sample the offerings in the only alternative, Rupert Murdoch's tacky little tabloid.

[Guest Risu]

Thanks for sharing this article.

Personally I find the term ladyboy less offensive than "crossdresser" because lady boy in thai doesn't poses the same negative ideas that "crossdresser" may include to many in the western world.

As for the gold name tags... I don't understand why they don't treat them like the women they are? I mean, yes perhaps it is good to embrace them as "third gender" but at the same time why not just embrace them as female... I mean... it's not like people who have no problem discriminating against transpeople will never fly on that airline, and what if it were to become a risk to these women's safety? Will they also have air marshals on board the planes with transgendered flight atendants just in case some ignorant westerner wishes them harm?

one step forward... two steps back.

maybe...

[Guest Wulfhere]

Kia Ora Pam & Carolyn,

An Australian called Peter Jackson [no not the Lord of the Rings Peter Jackson-he's a Kiwi] anyway, he had studied the Kathoey of Thailand, you might want to read this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathoey perhaps it will give the reader more insight to the whole acceptance thing in Thailand, that is, the Kathoeys are seen as the 'third gender' and many it would seem are comfortable with this classification...

The airline owner is not being derogatory in anyway, he's just providing jobs and at the same time cashing in on cultural norms, so to speak...

Thailand's a weird and wonderful place to visit and the Thai people are great

Metta Zenda

I wonder if it is because they are comfortable with the classification or if it is because they are currently not permitted any other option according to Thai law. From the same wiki article you posted:

Kathoey women currently face many social and legal impediments. Families (and especially fathers) are typically disappointed if a son becomes a kathoey, and kathoey women often have to face the prospect of coming out. However, kathoey generally have greater acceptance in Thailand than most other Asian countries.[10] Legal recognition of kathoeys is non-existent in Thailand: even after genital reassignment surgery, they are not allowed to change their legal sex. Discrimination in employment remains rampant.[11] Issues can also arise in regards to access to amenities and gender allocation; for example, a kathoey who had undergone sexual reassignment surgery would still have to stay in an all-male prison.

Also from your same article:

The term "kathoey" is not an exact equivalent of the modern Western trans woman, in that "kathoey" suggests that the person self-identifies as a type of male, unlike the term sao praphet song, which (like "trans woman") suggests a female gender identity, or phet thi sam, which suggests a third gender. The term phu-ying praphet thi sorng, which can be translated as "woman of the second kind", is also used to refer to kathoey.[4] Australian scholar of sexual politics in Thailand Peter Jackson claims that the term "kathoey" was used in premodern times to refer to intersexuals, and that the usage changed in the middle of the twentieth century to cover cross-dressing males.[5] The term can refer to males who exhibit varying degrees of femininity – many kathoeys dress as women and undergo feminising medical procedures such as hormone replacement therapy, breast implants, buttock augmentation, genital reassignment surgery, or Adam's apple reductions. Others may wear makeup and use feminine pronouns, but dress as men, and are closer to the western category of effeminate gay man than transgender.

The term "kathoey" may be considered pejorative, especially in the form "kathoey-saloey". It has a meaning similar to the English language "fairy" or "queen".[6]

While I think it is good to remain optimistic of global reforms that allow for greater acceptance of trans people, I think it's important that we don't become to caught up in specific sensationalist stories. We shouldn't allow those isolated instances to cloud over the reality with ideas of the proverbial pasture being greener on the other side.

[Guest Zenda]

While I think it is good to remain optimistic of global reforms that allow for greater acceptance of trans people, I think it's important that we don't become to caught up in specific sensationalist stories. We shouldn't allow those isolated instances to cloud over the reality with ideas of the proverbial pasture being greener on the other side.

Kia Ora Wulfhere,

When it comes to ones 'safety' [that is not having the fear of being beaten and murdered just because you are trans], I would say the "Grass is definately greener on the other side!"

They may not have full recognition just yet, but being born transgender in Thailand or another Buddhist country at least, they can live as their true gender and not be killed for it![many transition a lot younger than trans-people in the West because of this fact]

Metta Zenda

[Guest some ftm guy]

i remember when a late night talk show mentioned this and the "joke" they made was disgusting.

[Guest Wulfhere]

Kia Ora Wulfhere,

When it comes to ones 'safety' [that is not having the fear of being beaten and murdered just because you are trans], I would say the "Grass is definately greener on the other side!"

They may not have full recognition just yet, but being born transgender in Thailand or another Buddhist country at least, they can live as their true gender and not be killed for it![many transition a lot younger than trans-people in the West because of this fact]

Metta Zenda

There are a few legal facts that really make me wonder about how "safe" Thailand really is, though. You say that they can live as their true gender and not be killed for it, yet transwomen in Thailand are not legally recognised as women and there are no hate crime laws to begin with (which would deter proper statistics surrounding assault based on gender id, since the assault wouldn't be labeled a hate crime. I also read a report that many kathoeys face abuse within their families, though not by strangers). Any info on Thai kathoey sent to male prisons and how they fair there? Also, because Thai law only allows marriage between men and women, and because transwomen cannot change their gender markers to female, there are many marriage restrictions placed on trans people. So I'm not sure I would agree that they can fully live as their true gender without legal recognition...

Also, I think another reason I'm somewhat skeptical about this airline hiring kathoey flight attendants is that in Thailand there seems to be a tendency to funnel kathoeys into sexualised industries. They seem to almost be exclusively associated with modeling, beauty pageants, tv shows, cabarets, gogo bars and so on. Why is that?

I get the impression that they're overly sexualised (seen as something negative by the Thai government apparently since they banned this film for "sexual immorality,"), which works as a double-edged sword in their relationship with Buddhism and Thai society. Buddhism frowns upon "inappropriate sexual activities" and that seems to traditionally include sex involving trans people from what I've read.

It doesn't help that some activities related to prositution are illegal in Thailand, so that kathoey who are pushed into prostitution by their families, or forced into it by the fact that there remains a great deal of workplace discrimination against them are of course further stigmatised as strictly sexual beings.

So my suspicions are these: that the evidently sexualised image of kathoeys at least partially came into play with hiring these women to work as flight attendants (let's face it, we do tend to see flight attendants a certian way). I'm not convinced it was entirely innocent in intent, though I certainly hope those women benefit from it either way. Who knows, maybe it will lead to greater rights and recognition for them in Thailand and a way out of being viewed as largely sexual beings.

My concern is that Thai kathoeys, while they may not be prevented from transitioning young and may be more visible and tolerated in popular culture, the laws that deny them legal recognition and marriage, as well as high rates of workplace discrimination mean that they have few employment options. That seems pretty familiar. Which is probably why they are most regularly seen in entertainment/beauty/porn/prostitution industries. Are we to believe that every kathoey sees themselves as a purely sexual being? Or is it just that that's what their society has mostly restricted them to (obviously some aren't a part of these industries, but they are most popularly a part of them and I think that at least says something).

My suspicion of that is increased by the fact that I've been unable to find anything at all on transmen in Thailand beyond western transmen going there to get surgery then come back. The entire trans culture there seems focused entirely on kathoeys. Why?

This isn't me coming in and pooping on the parade, but I think that if we really want to rally for transgender rights globally and celebrate them in good conscience, we have to make sure that the freedoms we're celebrating aren't just the outwardly glitzy surface of a perhaps not so humanitarian underlying.

This article was interesting: http://unilife.curtin.edu.au/sexualdiversity/documents/Trans_sexual_health_access.pdf On page 18 it talks about violence against trans people in Thailand. Unfortunately, the author wasn't very good at footnoting so its hard to find the studies they're referring to. At the bottom they do refer back to this "Ron" aka Ronnapoom Samakkeekarom who, from google seems to be some kind of Bangkok based trans rights activist. Too bad there is not more written, though. I get the impression that there isn't much documented on the subject, which is too bad.

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora Wulfhere,

Much of what you have mentioned has truth to it, especially how there's little information on 'trans-men'...

However you mentioned "Buddhism frowns upon "inappropriate sexual activities!" By this you are referring to "sexual misconduct" which if you study Buddhism in more detail you will find it relate to 'any' inappropriate sexual act, [whether it be heterosexual or homosexual], that causes suffering for others, it is not targeting gay or trans-people...

In other words it all depends upon ones 'intent'...Check out the 5 precepts related to Buddhist practice...The one on sexual misconduct is basically this "Though the moral standards are different in different countries and in different times, rape, adultery and other abnormal sexual behaviour that involve physical and mental injury to others should be prohibited. It is also a matter of respect for people and personal relationships!"..

Some isolated Buddhist communities interpret the above to also include 'homosexual' acts, however it's believed this is to do more with 'cultural' practice than actual Buddhist teaching, it is in contradiction with Buddhist teachings on karma, rebirth and "compassion"

Quote "Thailand’s new constitution states that all people shall enjoy equal rights and protection under the law regardless of their sex, and the attached explanation states that this includes men, women and people of other gender identities.Rape laws in 11 of the 12 countries[in the study] do not offer protection for men or transwomen. Only Thailand’s law offers protection for all!"

Metta Zenda