Is It Possible?

[Guest My_Genesis]

This is probably wishful thinking, but I need to verify it before I completely eliminate the possibility...is it possible to have an intersex condition, be a fully functional female *cringe*, and have no knowledge of it? They don't test your DNA as a baby, do they? So how would i know for sure? There are just these subtle "hints" of masculine traits that I can't get out of my mind, because it really makes me wonder whether it's all in my mind, or something more..here are some I can think of off the top of my head:

- I am taller than average (~5'6"), and was always built very thin. I eat like those lanky teenage boys that can down anything without gaining weight, and if I do gain too much weight, it never distributes, it just sits in my stomach..so no hourglass figure

- I have muscular arms and I don't know where they came from. When I took a fitness test in gym several months ago, I went off the charts on push-ups and sit-ups (the girls' chart, that is). A lot of people have asked me if I work out, and when I say I don't they find it hard to believe. Also, when I was about 10-11 years old, i used to tell people I had "man shoulders" (not in a bad way, though), because clothes sometimes fit me funny and it looked like my shoulders were the broadest part of my body.

-irregular menstrual cycle/long time in between (40-45+ days is regular..)

- nearly flat-chested; although, maybe it's because of my broad shoulders, but when I measured, I got 34 in. and 34 in..not really a cup size for that, b/c an A-cup would mean a 1-inch difference, technically

-relatively fast metabolism

- "phantom-limb syndrome" --"down there", if you know what i mean, but i suppose many of us have that?

so, before i drop the possibility, i want to make sure it's completely impossible. how much would it be to get genetic testing done, and is it worth it..is this something that is done in the diagnosis often, or is it unnecessary?

[Guest Leah1026]

I am NOT putting you down, okay?

I think you're still in a bit of the bargaining phase of self-acceptance. Would the fact that you are/aren't intersex going to affect your decision to transition? Probably not.

However, if you are set on testing it is expensive. Unless the doctor comes up with some creative coding insurance will likely not pay for it. How much is it? I don't know, but given how expensive even routine tests are I would have to guess between $2,000-4,000. Endocrinologists seems to be split on this. Some like to do the testing, but I think the majority do not.

Good luck in what ever you decide to do.

[Guest lorddillon]

Let me give you the science perspective on this. My credentials: I am doing a PhD in neuroscience right now and I already have an earned master's in physiology, so I am very knowledgeable on this subject, not just because of being a transman, but because sex differences are related to my area of study. I, however, am NOT a medical doctor, so take what I say with the appropriate amount of salt.

From the biological perspective it's not entirely impossible that you are intersexed without knowing it, but it is very highly improbable. Most major genetic conditions that cause a form of hermaphoditism also have other side effects that would be (usually) found out when young (e.g. mullerian agenesis, XXY syndrome a.k.a. klinefelter's, turner's syndrome (only one X chromosome), androgen insensitivity, adrenal hyperplasia, etc.). These conditions have serious medical repercussions and are usually detected early in life and diagnosed followed by the corresponding medical intervention.

On the other hand you could have been very mildly intersexed (in terms of your genitals at birth) and have no other residual effects. This is quite a bit more common than everyone seems to want to admit, but is a possibility (sort of like the fact that many humans are born with short tails that are usually removed immediately at birth). In that case, the only way to know would be to go to the doctor that delivered you and ask if he/she remembers. Usually genital 'correction' surgery is not written down when a baby has been delivered - and only recently has the intersex movement made it possibility that the parents are even consulted beforehand. Anyway - all this to say that if you really want to know, ask your parents or the doctor/nurse that delivered you.

Keep in mind that even if you had mildly intersexed genitals because your brain was bathed in testosterone in the womb, that will not show up in a karyotype.

In the end I agree with Leah1026 - the test is expensive and will probably prove worthless to you. However, you should do what is best for yourself.

Best of luck to you.

[Guest My_Genesis]

Just wanted to clarify - the reason I'm asking is not because of self-image issues (although I'm not saying I definitely don't have that problem), but as I've mentioned in many of my other posts, I'm interested in doing research in tissue engineering in college for SRS, and since anyone who has an XX genotype, as far as I've researched, is likely to suffer immune rejection from the H-Y antigen on the Y-chromosome, I was curious about whether it was at all possible that I already have Y chromosomes hidden somewhere in my genotype (thus I wouldn't reject tissues with the H-Y)...probably a dumb question, just wanted to ask before I rule it out completely.

[Guest Drew]

that's something i had always been curious about too...for me, i doubt it's true but my dad recently told me that when i was born i had vaguely ambiguous genitalia...so i don't know...

[Guest GoldenKirbichu]

I have possible adrenal hyperplasia as well as mysterious PCOS literally out of nowhere (with no visible affects on my internal genitalia). I've always looked more masculine ever since puberty: my breasts never fully developed (they're still in the "barely pubescent" triangular stage despite me being almost an adult), my voice was always deep, my genitalia are kind of insensitive and I have phantom limb sensations related to my genitalia as well. I don't think I am intersexed, however, nor do I mind much. It would still be interesting to see, however. I wonder if the results of the chromosome tests are in yet...

[Bulldog1948]

that's something i had always been curious about too...for me, i doubt it's true but my dad recently told me that when i was born i had vaguely ambiguous genitalia...so i don't know...

Drew, I would venture to say, that you might very well be intersexed. You could ask to see your hospital records when you were born and read any notations made by the doctor. You could also see a good endo dr and have the tests done. Also, and this may sound weird, but the next time you have a physical done, have the dr check for a prostrate gland [ you may or may not have one] but it's worth checking out.

Now, there's also some important legal aspects to consider also. In some states, if it can be proven medically, you can get your BC changed without too many problems. In those states, it's easier for an intersexed person to get the legal stuff rctified than it is for a TS [ Ohio- beleive it or not is one of those states].

[Bulldog1948]

Just wanted to clarify - the reason I'm asking is not because of self-image issues (although I'm not saying I definitely don't have that problem), but as I've mentioned in many of my other posts, I'm interested in doing research in tissue engineering in college for SRS, and since anyone who has an XX genotype, as far as I've researched, is likely to suffer immune rejection from the H-Y antigen on the Y-chromosome, I was curious about whether it was at all possible that I already have Y chromosomes hidden somewhere in my genotype (thus I wouldn't reject tissues with the H-Y)...probably a dumb question, just wanted to ask before I rule it out completely.

From the sounds of your personel description, it sounds interesting to say the least. You do have some of the attributes of an intersexed person and you may have one of the conditions that is more rare. Only a well qualified dr can make that diagnois. Lie I said to Drew, have you been checked for a prostrate gland? And, yes, you can have a menstrel cycle and be intersexed.

With the physical description of yourself, it's a medical situation that deserves to be investigated. Here's an extrememly important website for intersexed folks

http://www.intersexualite.org/oii-usa-index.html

They know what they're talking about. But, don't try to BS them, just be straight forward honest with them. The folks involved with this organiztion are the walking talking intersexed people with many different types of conditions. I hope that I've been of help to you.

Bulldog

[Guest Leah1026]

Just wanted to clarify - the reason I'm asking is not because of self-image issues (although I'm not saying I definitely don't have that problem), but as I've mentioned in many of my other posts, I'm interested in doing research in tissue engineering in college for SRS, and since anyone who has an XX genotype, as far as I've researched, is likely to suffer immune rejection from the H-Y antigen on the Y-chromosome, I was curious about whether it was at all possible that I already have Y chromosomes hidden somewhere in my genotype (thus I wouldn't reject tissues with the H-Y)...probably a dumb question, just wanted to ask before I rule it out completely.

Another possibility is being "gender mosaic". There is where you could have some cells that are XX and some that are XY.

[Guest My_Genesis]

how would i find that out though, if they're not all the same, how would i know which cells to test?

[Guest Sergei]

I think a lot of transmen can look very masculine even before testosterone. I couldn't even pass as female when I tried to!

I like you, am tall 5"11, had massive broad shoulders, above average strength (for a biological female), aand an extremely deep voice.

I wouldn't worry about it to much. I never did. Just consider yourself lucky that you have a head start when it comes to transitioning.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I don't think it is impossible, but I think it is unlikely that your genes, chromosomes, whatever will look aberrant if you get it checked out. However, I've always thought of my situation as "intersexed". It's just that my brain is the part of me that's male while my body is (unfortunately) undeniably female. There is already some research suggesting that there are structural differences between the brains of gay and straight men and between lesbian and straight women. There are studies with transgendered people too, but I am not sure that there are many that include FTM's. I will have to look around.

One thing that gets me, and maybe it shouldn't, is that when someone says they are intersexed people don't react to them as negatively as they would if they had said that they are transgendered. Because intersex conditions frequently involve externally observable differences, people don't blame the individual for them. However, I don't feel like I had a choice about being transgendered. It's just as biologically rooted. So, I guess the reason I wish that something about me would be chomosomally or hormonally "odd" is because I feel like that would make my being transgendered easier for people to accept. More than anything guess I just wish that people would realize that being gay, lesbian, or transgendered is not a choice so I wouldn't feel so compelled to make excuses for myself.

[Guest Lynnx]

However, I've always thought of my situation as "intersexed". It's just that my brain is the part of me that's male while my body is (unfortunately) undeniably female.

Yes, I agree.

Another possibility is a chimera. That is when twins are fuzed in the zygote stage. I have found this fascinating. Fraternal twins could be fuzed, producing one person out of two. You could look entirely like one sex, but have the genes of the other inside you. The docters really don't know how often this happens, as they only find out about it if you don't look entirely like one sex, or if they gene testing for a donor organ, or if they do a paternity/maternity test.

The scientific mind always wants to figure out "why?" We have to deal with ourselves regardless of the answer to "why?". And most of us will never find the answer. But wouldn't that make it a little bit easier on us personally if we knew why? The scientific mind insists there must be a physical reason for us being this way.

[Guest My_Genesis]

i actually found this research abstract (to which i posted a link in another thread) stating that 3/4 of the FTMs they tested were positive for the H-Y antigen (which is from the Y chromosome), while only 50% of MTFs were positive for it, even though anyone with a Y chromosome (i.e. a biological male) should have it. I had to read it over a few times because i thought it may be wishful thinking but this is what i repeatedly got from it...it's interesting because H-Y is responsible for male gonadal development, but somehow it is stopped in FTM's who have it and they never develop into males..which means that technically, 75% of us and 50% of MTFs could be intersexed..pretty amazing i think. the link is in my other thread if you wanted to read about it - i'm too lazy to post it here lol.

[Guest My_Genesis]

Drew, I would venture to say, that you might very well be intersexed. You could ask to see your hospital records when you were born and read any notations made by the doctor. You could also see a good endo dr and have the tests done. Also, and this may sound weird, but the next time you have a physical done, have the dr check for a prostrate gland [ you may or may not have one] but it's worth checking out.

So you can actually have a prostate gland? I've never heard about this before...are there usually any symptoms??

Another reason I asked about this is because of "Phantom-Limb Syndrome"..I always compare it to feeling like a man who had the organ amputated, almost like I have a memory of it being there at one point...sometimes I could swear I must have some kind of male organ, such as a prostate, somewhere and I just never found out about it..

[Guest My_Genesis]

From the sounds of your personel description, it sounds interesting to say the least. You do have some of the attributes of an intersexed person and you may have one of the conditions that is more rare. Only a well qualified dr can make that diagnois. Lie I said to Drew, have you been checked for a prostrate gland? And, yes, you can have a menstrel cycle and be intersexed.

With the physical description of yourself, it's a medical situation that deserves to be investigated. Here's an extrememly important website for intersexed folks

http://www.intersexualite.org/oii-usa-index.html

They know what they're talking about. But, don't try to BS them, just be straight forward honest with them. The folks involved with this organiztion are the walking talking intersexed people with many different types of conditions. I hope that I've been of help to you.

Bulldog

When I look at most intersex conditions, none of them match up to my "symptoms"

I've never heard of having a prostate before..what's that all about? Is it something extremely rare? Is it actually an intersex condition? Is it the same as a prostate a genetic male would have? And how exactly do they test for it?

lol sorry about all the questions..

[Guest My_Genesis]

oh yeah, regarding this topic, the other thing I noticed, and maybe this is common, I don't really know..is that I seem to have a somewhat masculine appearance even though I'm not trying to..my younger sister took this picture of me and when I saw it, I was thinking, "I really do look like *this close* to having been born a guy.." idk, i guess it's just kinda androgynous-looking to me..

What do you guys think?

[Guest raydub]

hey dude! nice to finally see you.

I think you look fairly androgynous....did i butcher the spelling???

Ray

[Guest Jack Solomon]

You do look to be leaning towards androgynous in body type. I think the hair pulled back helps with that as well. I like your expression and pose, its very masculine. There are some masculine touches about your appearance that I also have. A binder would help with the chest, even if your cup size there is small. I found wearing a binder most of the time made my body type even more androgynous by giving a flat chest under clothes.

Solomon

[Guest My_Genesis]

You do look to be leaning towards androgynous in body type. I think the hair pulled back helps with that as well. I like your expression and pose, its very masculine. There are some masculine touches about your appearance that I also have. A binder would help with the chest, even if your cup size there is small. I found wearing a binder most of the time made my body type even more androgynous by giving a flat chest under clothes.

Solomon

The funny thing is, I wasn't deliberately trying to look masculine..it just kinda..happened. That's what I thought was weird about it, how it just came out that way without me really even trying. (BTW, Ray, that's the pic I'm planning to photoshop, at least for starters..I think some of the work is already there, with the pose and the expression and everything.. )

And yeah in terms of body type, I think I am kind of androgynous, which is one of the main reasons I asked about being intersexed...I also have the biggest shoe size of any female I know..two of whom are taller than I am, off the top of my head..

And also the biceps thing, which I already mentioned...that's something that happened recently, like in the past couple years, I just noticed one day in the mirror that every time I bend my arms back, I have these bulging muscles..and the only exercise I ever did was push-ups in phys ed, but I'm done with high school now and haven't done push-ups for months..yet the biceps remain..I do tend to be more muscular, and have a very low BMI (within normal range, but on the low end). And I;m horrible with endurance when it comes to exercise, especially running, but I have a pretty high tolerance for muscle strain, and sometimes when I think I'm going to be sore, from some type of physical activity, the next day I'm not, and it always surprises me.

My mom also always used to tell me that women are stronger in the bottom half of their bodies, and men are stronger in the top half..I do think compared to my legs, my arms are much stronger..

Anyway, just elaborating on what I've already mentioned.

[Guest My_Genesis]

hey dude! nice to finally see you.

I think you look fairly androgynous....did i butcher the spelling???

Ray

You spelled it perfectly actually.