An Unpopular Point Of View

[Sally]

This may not be the way that most people took the news and the joyous reactions but as a Christian I have to say that I was disturbed by a great deal of the celebrating.

All I felt was a sense of his part is over, the book is not closed only finished one chapter and another opens.

Regardless of how we felt about him this was a man who is now dead and all of the reporters were so happy to announce it and take cameras out into the crowds to film the great joy by so many people thrilled by hos lose of life.

I started to replay in my mind the images of the people in the Middle East celebrating in the streets after the towers collapsed on 9/11 and felt that we are only a few burqas and automatic weapons being fired into the air from being exactly the same - we were appalled by them and now proud of ourselves - does this explain any of the problems in the world?

They cheered and partied over the deaths of people that they had been told were evil - what is the difference?

In our minds it is because he was truly evil - they thought we were - it is all a matter of judgement and that is what, as Christians we are not supposed to do.

Just my observation of another bit of hypocrisy in the world - there is a lot of it and for the most part we are all guilty at times, just one more thing that we need to improve.

Love ya, all of ya,

Sally

[Guest CariadsCarrot]

My partner and I have been having very similar conversations about this Sally. We both feel deeply uneasy about the way people are celebrating. He was still a human being even if a very warped one. We slaughtered a man who may have done terrible things but at the time he was shot was apparently unarmed and could have easily been taken into custody and dealt with properly. Is that really something to be proud of?

Our eldest son came home singing one of the celebratory songs he has heard ('joy to the world, bin laden's dead') and we told him in no uncertain terms that this was NOT an attitude we wanted to hear from him and furthermore perverting a hymn of all things to do it was TOTALLY disrespectful!

I feel we've lowered ourselves as human beings by the way this has been handled to be honest.

Gabe

[Guest ChloëC]

The reality is we are not a 'Christian' nation, and never will be. People can call themselves whatever they want, however, as I've always believed, actions speak much louder than words.

Where are the church leaders speaking out against this kind of action and response?

My personal belief is that the mainline church leaders are scared to death that the (U.S.!!!) government will come down on them and take away some priviledges (by taxation or regulation) or whatever and they don't want their precious applecart being upset, since they get to enjoy a lot of the spoils, so they bow to whatever the government is currently demanding, without question.

And the non-mainline churches don't preach any form of Christianity that I've been led to understand that Jesus spoke about and preached and died for, so they rejoice in inflicting injury and even death upon their enemies, and by their actions (and inactions) encourage their followers to do likewise.

So, we aren't a Christian nation and never will be, and this episode goes a long way in supporting that. Sad to say.

Hugz and Peace and Love (way too little of that going around these days)

Chloë

[Guest Elizabeth K]

The the Catholic Church grudgingly apologizing for their ignoring the cup cake Government's treatment of the Jewish Race, Polish Nation , handicapped and yes, 'sexually diverse' people, during the Holocaust - some 50 years after the fact!

I await our next UU Church meeting. I am sure Rev Jim will condemn this vengeance fueled celebration of Ben Laden's execution by the US Military. Ben Laden was deserving in the old 'eye for an eye" Old Testament view, he was a perpetuator of the murder of innocents as a political weapon, but...

An eye for an eye? Soon all the world is blind.

Lizzy

[Guest DanielleD]

I have been thinking about this one and I am conflicted about it. The celebration of his demise...Not a good thing. It never is when another human being is killed. Destruction of life gives me a heavy feeling on my heart. Now the other side of me, maybe from my military days or maybe simply my imperfect human condition; did this person deserve to be sent to his maker..absolutely. Do I believe the world is a safer place without him...absolutely. Do I recognize that this attitude is very non Christian...Of course. Is this attitude damaging to my soul...Yes. Will I lose any sleep over it...Absolutely not. I know I am no saint, maybe even considered an awful person in some people's eyes....But at least I am forgiven.

Have a Fabulous Day!!

Danielle:)

[JJ]

This was one of the things that struck me immediately. I think we have every right to celebrate that this man is no longer at large, In a sense we set his death or capture (which we knew was never going to happen) up as a matter of national pride. A commitment to the people whose deaths he engineered. As a symbol -I am glad we have finally achieved our goal.

BUT he was a human being. I can never rejoice at the death of another human being. I regret that we have put it that way sometimes in the media. But that doesn't mean I'm sorry to see the world without him either. In effect he declared war on us that day in 2001 and this was an inevitable result. At least in this case it was not an innocent who died.

I am also somehow shamed that we shot and killed him unarmed -a situation that would have quickly changed I know just as I know that doing so saved some American lives but it still seems fundamentally wrong to shoot an unarmed man-three times at that. His greatest victory over us has been that he got us to curtail our own freedoms and to do that which is not really morally defensible.

[Guest CariadsCarrot]

Oh yeah I definately am glad that he's not out there in the world any more and I don't particularly mourn his death, I just don't think any human being should be killed unarmed like that and then have the fact celebrated so crudely.

did this person deserve to be sent to his maker

I actually am not so sure about that coz in his eyes he died an honourable death from his enemy's bullet and he would have been certain of being rewarded for it in the afterlife (personally I think his 'reward' in the afterlife will come as a bit of a rude shock to him but I'm talking about HIS view point here)

What I think he deserved was to be brought back as a political prisoner, shamed in front of a court for his atrocious acts and to live out the rest of a long life as a miserable prisoner. Being killed isn't a punishment in my eyes, it's an easy way out from paying the consequences of your actions!

[Guest April63]

I remember all the posts on Facebook celebrating his death. How horrible I thought. Shedding of blood is never a good thing, but I do believe there are times and places where the death penalty is acceptable. I think it is acceptable for Osama because of his previous crimes, the threat he has posed, and his unwillingness to cooperate, reason, or accept others beliefs. He had his mind made up. He could not be changed.

But even though death may be acceptable there is absolutely no reason to rejoice. His death means nothing. There is no win. Another will replace him. His cause has not been defeated. This is reason to mourn. It is truly sad and unfortunate that he believed that certain things were acceptable and that this evil cruelty has spread to many others. I feel bad that his life had to be ended due to the incorrect decisions he made. It may have been necessary, but it is quite unfortunate.

[Guest (Lightsider)]

There may be several reasons to celebrate.

1. Because the SOB is dead.

2. Because there is some closure.

or both.

Personally I am glad he was removed from this world but I did not go out and set off fireworks or get excited he was dead. My thoughts were for those who he killed. The guy celebrated when he killed those people on 9/11. This guy was no more human than Hitler, Stalin, or Joseph Mengele.

I don't think any one would agree that keeping those 3 guys alive after they murdered so many people would be justifiable, keeping them alive was just too dangerous. I am glad that this tyrant is gone because he was preaching that any one who was not Muslim should be killed (hell he even killed his own people!). If he met any one of us we would be DEAD because he considered us infidels. Unclean and deserving of death. He preached a doctrine of hate against us...and don't even get me started on the fact we are trans and what he would do over that!

So what is the difference here? We wanted him dead right? Well he is just one guy creating a whole lot of trouble. We (our nation) were not out to destroy an entire Muslim nation, we were out to get him and his leadership whereas he declared war on all of us and pronounced a death sentence on every single one of us. Sometimes you have to remove an arm or leg in order to save the patient.

[JenniferB]

I do believe that Osama deseved his fate, but I don't want to celebrate it. It actually makes me sad. Because of his actions he sealed his fate. And it is a shame. He fell into darkness and now his soul is lost. All life is precious.

I believe in judgment and I believe his will be harsh.

Jenny

[Guest April63]

There may be several reasons to celebrate.

1. Because the SOB is dead.

2. Because there is some closure.

or both.

Personally I am glad he was removed from this world but I did not go out and set off fireworks or get excited he was dead. My thoughts were for those who he killed. The guy celebrated when he killed those people on 9/11. This guy was no more human than Hitler, Stalin, or Joseph Mengele.

I don't think any one would agree that keeping those 3 guys alive after they murdered so many people would be justifiable, keeping them alive was just too dangerous. I am glad that this tyrant is gone because he was preaching that any one who was not Muslim should be killed (hell he even killed his own people!). If he met any one of us we would be DEAD because he considered us infidels. Unclean and deserving of death. He preached a doctrine of hate against us...and don't even get me started on the fact we are trans and what he would do over that!

So what is the difference here? We wanted him dead right? Well he is just one guy creating a whole lot of trouble. We (our nation) were not out to destroy an entire Muslim nation, we were out to get him and his leadership whereas he declared war on all of us and pronounced a death sentence on every single one of us. Sometimes you have to remove an arm or leg in order to save the patient.

But why should we celebrate that he is dead? What good is there in murder? Yes, he planned and helped to execute additional murders, and he celebrated those deaths. But that doesn't mean it is right to celebrate his death. We may have wanted him dead, but there should be no joy in his murder. We should have wanted him to control the problem--to increase our safety. And the result is no increase in safety. No real closure. Any closure is an illusion. Osama was not alone and those with him are still working to accomplish his goals. I agree that you may need to remove an arm or a leg, but what if the problem has spread to other parts of the body? Do you celebrate that the arm is gone? Do you feel any better? No, you have to keep working until the problem is truly eliminated.

I do believe that Osama deseved his fate, but I don't want to celebrate it. It actually makes me sad. Because of his actions he sealed his fate. And it is a shame. He fell into darkness and now his soul is lost. All life is precious.

I believe in judgment and I believe his will be harsh.

Jenny

I agree. It is sad. Sad for him, his followers, the victims. Everyone involved. Sad for us. Life is precious, and instead of trying to help people, we're focusing on killing them.

[Guest ~Brenda~]

I believe in the American Justice system. Everyone is assumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of Law. What I found distasteful about this whole thing was that we (Americans) went in and assassinated this person without due process.

I would have hoped that he would have been captured and brought to the Haige to face the charges of crimes against humanity. This is exactly what has been done to the Serbian generals that are accused of heinous war crimes.

Assassinating Osama Bin Laden was an act of revenge, not justice. I would have hoped that we, as a nation, could rise above the hate and try Bin Laden in a court of Law, and show to the world that the rule of Law is what governs nations and people.

To simply assassinate him just proved that we are still at the stage of an "eye for an eye".

I had hoped for better. We are better than this...

Brenda

[Guest Michaele]

I saw the pictures of the celebration in front of the white house and thought change the flag and the clothing. The way they acted was exactly like the students act in the middle east, we're the same only the philosophy is different.

Shelley

[Guest (Lightsider)]

But why should we celebrate that he is dead? What good is there in murder? Yes, he planned and helped to execute additional murders, and he celebrated those deaths. But that doesn't mean it is right to celebrate his death. We may have wanted him dead, but there should be no joy in his murder. We should have wanted him to control the problem--to increase our safety. And the result is no increase in safety. No real closure. Any closure is an illusion. Osama was not alone and those with him are still working to accomplish his goals. I agree that you may need to remove an arm or a leg, but what if the problem has spread to other parts of the body? Do you celebrate that the arm is gone? Do you feel any better? No, you have to keep working until the problem is truly eliminated.

I agree. It is sad. Sad for him, his followers, the victims. Everyone involved. Sad for us. Life is precious, and instead of trying to help people, we're focusing on killing them.

Personally, if it was me and I encountered him, I would have pulled the trigger myself given the opportunity. But I would not have celebrated it because when one loses their life because they were wicked it should be solemn because at the core we are all brothers and sisters. And I am largely against the death penalty and have debated against it. But when it comes to world tyrants, they need to be eliminated and thrown out to sea because of the power over others they wield over others.

That is all I am going to say on this as I respect every ones opinion on the matter, I simply do not agree with all of the opinions surrounding his death.

Here is a common question for some thought..."If you could travel back in time and kill Hitler would you do it to save countless lives?"

[Carolyn Marie]

I'm going to go against the grain of this thread a bit. I'm not going to say we should all go out and celebrate a death. Not at all. I wasn't out celebrating, but I'm not about to say I'm sorry and apologize to anyone for what happened, either.

I have a different perspective on the actions of the soldiers than many on this thread. That perspective comes from 20 years as a cop, and eight years reviewing use of force cases involving police officers for the civilian police commission. What I know is that people think of shootings in terms of what they see in the movies; slow motion shoot outs with bullets flying so slowly you can watch their progress, or officers/soldiers so well trained that they can shoot the gun out of someone's hand at 50 yards, or put a bullet between the bad guys eyes in a darkened room. Always in those scenarios, the bad guys shoot automatic weapons with bullets flying everywhere and never hitting anyone. So when a suspect takes out a gun, people can't understand why the officer had to fire first, why the bad guy wasn't given a chance to get off his own shot first. Not fair, they say. Why didn't the officer aim for his leg, or his hand? When the bad guy is "only" armed with a knife, the public thinks that the officer is never justified in shooting.

The truth is, deadly force situations are rarely controlled, and always filled with fear and adrenaline. Officers and soldiers are trained to shoot center-mass, where they are most likely to hit and stop the suspect. Perhaps one officer or soldier in a thousand is good enough to shoot the gun out of someone's hand, and that's never in a real life situation.. In some shootings, multiple officers fire dozens of rounds at a single suspect, and hit nothing. You think that's an aberration? It happens all the time, I assure you.

My point? The situation those soldiers went into was a war zone. They expected to find armed resistance, and they found it. They did not expect bin Laden to simply surrender, and he did not. They expected that his compound would be heavily defended and possibly booby trapped. The soldiers cannot be criticized after the fact because it wasn't booby trapped, or because bin Laden wasn't armed. Would it have been better if the soldiers had given him or his protectors time to arm themselves so there could be a "proper" shoot out? Sorry, but no. Was it a "fair fight?" Hell no, and it wasn't supposed to be. Officers and soldiers are given the weapons they use to make sure that they have superior fire power. They aren't playing cowboys and Indians.

I have yet to see the parent or family member of a suspect admit that their loved one deserved to be shot by an officer, no matter what that loved one might have done to trigger the deadly response by the officers. Its always the officers who "assassinated" the poor suspect, just because he pointed a loaded gun or raised a knife and lunged at the officer. Sorry, but I've been to too many police officer funerals to feel sympathy.

The soldiers came home in one piece from bin Laden's compound. That, I will celebrate.

HUGS

Carolyn Marie

[VickySGV]

Back as an Eighteen ager, during the last years of the Viet Nam conflict, I had people on exactly two sides around me, both claiming to be Christians. One side said it was my Christian Duty to refuse to sign up for the military draft as required by law then. The other side said that it was my Christian Duty to kill as many Vietnamese Communists as I possibly could in the name of guess who!! After much prayer and thought, I came to the decision that for me in my journey at the time, I would sign up and be available for the draft, but at the thought of personally having to take another life as a soldier, I would do so if it was part of my military orders, but that I would NOT rejoice or take personal glory in taking that life, but would ask God for mercy on my soul and the soul of any person whose life I took. As it turned out, I never had to put my committment into action. My draft number was excluded in the very first "lottery" for military conscripts that had been instituted before my final college year.

Bin Laden's death was the result of military orders and since we have seen none of the soldiers from the raid he was killed in celebrating and reveling in the act, in their name I still ask God for mercy on their souls and that of the one whose life they took.

Carolyn Marie's post here is a definite eye opening thing, sadly one my eyes have been opened to for years. I have never had to face that one split instance where a person became just a target, but I have been the ear and shoulder to a few who have. Shes very right, I too rejoice the safe return of the soldiers, and pray for the healing they will need.